I'm excited to be rebooting my West Marches campaign in a few weeks, and I remember having some real trouble with the Devilsight + Darkness combo. I had a warlock who would do the combo, and I've got a padlock as well that joins in with it, and it is insane. All my players are between levels 5 and 7. Double greater invisibility for a single level 2 spell is really challenging for me to deal with as a GM without doing unfun things to them like adding devilsight to monsters, using tons of blindsight monsters, employing devils where they don't belong, or using tons of AOE spells. I mentioned previously it was the only thing as a GM I was considering banning, and so they don't use it constantly, but I don't want them to be in a weird spot where they have a cool power they don't want to use for fear of doing it too much. I've got a player who is joining who has also expressed interest in this combo, potentially making it even more of an issue.
My goal is for my players to have fun and feel powerful, but I would also like to have fun as well, and having a combat almost completely locked down by a level two spell that comes back on a short rest is not very fun. Has anyone found any ways of dealing with this combo that make it fun for both GM and player without banning it or hard countering it?
My goal is for my players to have fun and feel powerful, but I would also like to have fun as well, and having a combat almost completely locked down by a level two spell that comes back on a short rest is not very fun. Has anyone found any ways of dealing with this combo that make it fun for both GM and player without banning it or hard countering it?
If multiple PCs are relying on a particular tactic, I wouldn't feel at all bad about hard countering it at least some of the time.
First of all, remember that 5th-7th level characters are not nobodies, it's perfectly reasonable for even a mid-tier bad guy to go "ah yes, I've heard about you people" and pull out a counter to their SOP. More broadly, any group with spellcaster support should have dispel magic, and you can always render the darkness irrelevant by blinding everyone with something like fog cloud.
Also, you may want to be hard-nosed about location. RAW is that people's positions are known unless they make a successful hide check or the DM specifically rules otherwise, and you're under no obligation to rule otherwise. This isn't to say that it isn't still a substantial advantage, but it's hardly unbeatable.
Agreed on other bad guys at this level to have run into this tactic before. Maybe some of their fighters have trained in the Blind Fighting style. Or they have Continual Flame (level 3) torches available. Or they simply run away for 10 minutes before returning!
Being heavily obscured by Darkness has nothing to do with Greater Invisibility, it's different thing as it rely on the Blinded condition instead. Being in magical darkness in which some characters can see through means that attacks by or against other creature that can't see them will have (dis)advantage. It a nice combo used by just 2 characters and not the entire party, and there are enemies that can cancel some or all of it by relying on other senses or otherwise getting or imposing (dis)advantage, cover etc... And they have to manage the magical darkness so that it doesn't obstruct the view of other party members that cannot see in it. A monster that goes in melee will also be in the darkness and not be seen by other party members for exemple where Greater Invisibility never affect your teammate's attacks.
Blindsight, blind fighting, true sight, tremor sense, light spells cast at a higher level, have warlocks with devil sight, actual devils with devil sight, use larger area effect spells - don’t need to see a specific person to drop fireball or sleet storm or psychic static on them. Dispel magic and counterspell are also fine. Not to mention running away and setting up an ambush for when the spell has run out. There are so many ways to combat darkness that it ahould never be an issue.
A lot of the replies focus on things already mentioned in the first post. As another alternative, you could create situations where it's more desirable to cast something different. Some ways to achieve that:
Use a creature with garbage AC but monstrous HP. Hitting it is easy, but what's needed is damage. Or depending on how it threatens the party, maybe they need to focus on some other way of disabling it.
If any of the warlock players have situational spells, have those situations come up.
Smaller, more frequent encounters. Warlocks have limited spell slots, so it's easy to stretch them thin.
Mobile encounters. A wide open combat space with fast-moving enemies. A chase scene. A fight across the tops of moving vehicles. Anything that makes the static placement of the spell a hindrance.
Or more counters to Darkness: Creatures that get stronger, regenerate, or become invisible in darkness. Someone with the sense to cover the source of the darkness, per the spell's rules. Someone who spams magic missile to break their concentration.
Hey guys!
I'm excited to be rebooting my West Marches campaign in a few weeks, and I remember having some real trouble with the Devilsight + Darkness combo. I had a warlock who would do the combo, and I've got a padlock as well that joins in with it, and it is insane. All my players are between levels 5 and 7. Double greater invisibility for a single level 2 spell is really challenging for me to deal with as a GM without doing unfun things to them like adding devilsight to monsters, using tons of blindsight monsters, employing devils where they don't belong, or using tons of AOE spells. I mentioned previously it was the only thing as a GM I was considering banning, and so they don't use it constantly, but I don't want them to be in a weird spot where they have a cool power they don't want to use for fear of doing it too much. I've got a player who is joining who has also expressed interest in this combo, potentially making it even more of an issue.
My goal is for my players to have fun and feel powerful, but I would also like to have fun as well, and having a combat almost completely locked down by a level two spell that comes back on a short rest is not very fun. Has anyone found any ways of dealing with this combo that make it fun for both GM and player without banning it or hard countering it?
If multiple PCs are relying on a particular tactic, I wouldn't feel at all bad about hard countering it at least some of the time.
First of all, remember that 5th-7th level characters are not nobodies, it's perfectly reasonable for even a mid-tier bad guy to go "ah yes, I've heard about you people" and pull out a counter to their SOP. More broadly, any group with spellcaster support should have dispel magic, and you can always render the darkness irrelevant by blinding everyone with something like fog cloud.
Also, you may want to be hard-nosed about location. RAW is that people's positions are known unless they make a successful hide check or the DM specifically rules otherwise, and you're under no obligation to rule otherwise. This isn't to say that it isn't still a substantial advantage, but it's hardly unbeatable.
Agreed on other bad guys at this level to have run into this tactic before. Maybe some of their fighters have trained in the Blind Fighting style. Or they have Continual Flame (level 3) torches available. Or they simply run away for 10 minutes before returning!
Being heavily obscured by Darkness has nothing to do with Greater Invisibility, it's different thing as it rely on the Blinded condition instead. Being in magical darkness in which some characters can see through means that attacks by or against other creature that can't see them will have (dis)advantage. It a nice combo used by just 2 characters and not the entire party, and there are enemies that can cancel some or all of it by relying on other senses or otherwise getting or imposing (dis)advantage, cover etc... And they have to manage the magical darkness so that it doesn't obstruct the view of other party members that cannot see in it. A monster that goes in melee will also be in the darkness and not be seen by other party members for exemple where Greater Invisibility never affect your teammate's attacks.
Treantmonk just released a video about darkness and devilsight:
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Blindsight, blind fighting, true sight, tremor sense, light spells cast at a higher level, have warlocks with devil sight, actual devils with devil sight, use larger area effect spells - don’t need to see a specific person to drop fireball or sleet storm or psychic static on them. Dispel magic and counterspell are also fine. Not to mention running away and setting up an ambush for when the spell has run out. There are so many ways to combat darkness that it ahould never be an issue.
Beardsinger gave most of my advice.
It is remarkable how many creatures have some form of blindsight.
Bats, crabs, dolphins, scorpions, constructs, Demons - even Abyssal Chicken, piercers, Plants, etc. etc. etc.
A lot of the replies focus on things already mentioned in the first post. As another alternative, you could create situations where it's more desirable to cast something different. Some ways to achieve that:
Use a creature with garbage AC but monstrous HP. Hitting it is easy, but what's needed is damage. Or depending on how it threatens the party, maybe they need to focus on some other way of disabling it.
If any of the warlock players have situational spells, have those situations come up.
Smaller, more frequent encounters. Warlocks have limited spell slots, so it's easy to stretch them thin.
Mobile encounters. A wide open combat space with fast-moving enemies. A chase scene. A fight across the tops of moving vehicles. Anything that makes the static placement of the spell a hindrance.
Or more counters to Darkness: Creatures that get stronger, regenerate, or become invisible in darkness. Someone with the sense to cover the source of the darkness, per the spell's rules. Someone who spams magic missile to break their concentration.
You can't actually cast magic missile into darkness unless you have the ability to see through darkness; it can only target creatures you can see.
Thanks for the suggestions guys!
Hey, that's funny that Treantmonk just put out a video about that, that was helpful.