I am dming for three players that are currently in the middle of a large dungeon and are trying to set a trap to help themselves escape. The problem with this is that they are literally in the dead center and have no chance of pulling this off with the desired effects. I feel that I explained it to them where they are and tried to express that there is a very large number of enemies that are actively searching for them at the moment and their trap isn't going to hinder that many especially with how far from an exit they are. Do I just let it play out or should I ruin immersion and explain that this is a bad idea?
You can keep it in game by leaning on the characters with high wisdom scores and basically tell them via their passive perception features that their character's "read" on the tactic is bad for the reasons you've outlined. And that's it, if they hose themselves and grief at you, you can say as DM you did your best even telling them that they're characters should have, in fact did know better in this event.
As DM you can't outright stop players wanting to commit to stupid. But it's totally within your prerogative to explain what the characters would likely be feeling in a situation where an absurd tactic was being deployed. You're actually providing greater immersion that way by helping the players understand what their characters see in the world. But again, don't press, it's not your fault if the party TPK themselves because of an ill considered trick that the DM telegraphed as "BAD IDEA' through narration.
Tactical thinking is often more a learned or even studied thing than an inspired or innate talent thing. There's really nothing wrong with tutoring players in how to process your environments.
I will also say, as a DM, it is within your power to create a scenario that supports the decision of the characters. In the example you give, unless I'm reading it wrong, setting a trap doesn't seem like a stupid course of action, given how players or characters might think in the moment. It seems that way to YOU, the Dm, but you also have insight the players don't. Rule number one of DMing tends to be that nothing goes according to your plan. Obviously, I don't have all the info (what the enemies are, how many, what the dungeon is like, etc.), but it's not to say that you couldn't work with their solution.
However, if it really is that idiotic it won't 'ruin immersion' per se to say, "everyone roll a wisdom (survival) check for this plan)". Just nudge those that succeed to say that this might not be the best course of action, then remind them of the stakes. Then let them disperse that info to the group in character. It won't ruin immersion. It's just good Dming. Hope this helps
Do I just let it play out or should I ruin immersion and explain that this is a bad idea?
Short answer: I would let it pay out, see long answer below for why.
Long answer: What is the trap idea? Why is there no chance of it working? Some more details are needed in order to give solid advice. There is probably a good workaround.
Example: they are in the dead center of the dungeon, they set up explosives to blow up when someone walks through X hallway. What they don’t know is that there are 250 enemy’s searching the dungeon looking for them. The result of the explosion will draw all enemies to them, there is no way they can beat all those enemies coming from all sides.
My solution to my above example scenario would be that the explosion created a hole that opened up a subterranean passageway, or a cave system, or the ruins of an even older dudgeon. The parties trap did not work the way they wanted it to, but it did give them a means of escape…. Possibly.
Here is the issue with the party rolling a check to “realize” that the idea is bad. Everyone rolls below a 10, or below a 5 whatever you set the DC at. Now based on low rolls instead of the PCs “realizing” it’s a bad idea and won’t work, you have to give them the opposite result, and they all have a stroke of genius and are positive this is the best idea ever.
I generally like to find a way to make whatever my players come up with happen even if it doesn’t accomplish what they intended. I just think being flexible and creative is better than having the party role dice to learn that something is a bad idea, as stated above dice rolling needs to have the negative possibility also, imo.
I have a dungeon that I've used a few times. There are different elemental rooms, and in one of those rooms on a stone pillar sits a large egg. The column itself is flanked by two fire elementals. Each elemental room contains the relevant elementals, and depending on how I've set it up anywhere from 1-6 of the 8 chests are mimics. This is on top of traps etc.
Despite this I have, almost every time had a player who has seen the egg and gone...I want that. In one case it was a level 2 fighter, and level 2 monk/warlock who'd separated from the group. Players are their own worst enemy most times. You would think 'big, scary looking creatures made from what appears to be living lava and flames staring directly at you with what you're sure is a menacing...what pass for eyes' would be enough to signal to players that...no, you're not ready for this fight yet.
I once had a DM tell me that you need to take the players problem solving/tactical ability and assume that when they play they operate with only a quarter of those abilities. I've kinda found that to be true.
I'm always inwardly cheering for my players. I want them to succeed. That said, part of the collaborative, and open nature of TTRPGs is the ability to make a stupid mistake. So let them. I find often that letting players make potentially deadly mistakes with their characters opens their eyes to the fact that this world isn't on rails, and that they have a true freedom.
If characters do die, I would add however that you should earmark the last portion of your session for a bit of a send off. I have an OOC chat with everyone along the lines of 'look, I want you to have free choices, and I'm sorry that your choice caused your character to die. I remember that one thing your character did that was just so funny/brave/insane... I'm going to miss your character.' Then allow other players to chip in, give the character(s) a bit of a send off as players. It helps to show that you're not acting against the players or their characters and that these are the risks for your characters when they ignore the info given by DM.
Thanks to all the replies so far. Sorry for being vague at first. I wasn't sure if one of my players used this resource or not. Turns out he doesn't so I can expand more. They are half a mile into (literally in the middle of) a goblinoid horde's lair and are being actively searched for at the moment. The Hobgoblin in charge just sent all of his horde to search for them. Most headed toward the entrance/exit they know of to search. The party put down a 10 foot pit in the middle of the hall and used the rangers spider companion to make a loose web over it to hide it. Theyare going to scream to draw attention in hopes the pit catches enemies and deters pursuit. The problem is that they have essentially trapped themselves on the side of the pit with most of the horde and are half a mile from the exit. I plan on having the horde capture them if they don't manage a miracle so I'm not worried about a tpk, I just don't want them to have their fun ruined by something they planned not working.
I once had a DM tell me that you need to take the players problem solving/tactical ability and assume that when they play they operate with only a quarter of those abilities. I've kinda found that to be true.
I find this to be true. I know all three of my players very well outside the game and they are all extremely intelligent, but they either don't listen all the way or get too excited or something and don't stop to think about their plans it seems. .
Let it play out. If they die then they die. Too many DM’s are scared of a tpk these days. Players will never learn and improve their game if they keep getting mollycoddled all the time.
I am dming for three players that are currently in the middle of a large dungeon and are trying to set a trap to help themselves escape. The problem with this is that they are literally in the dead center and have no chance of pulling this off with the desired effects. I feel that I explained it to them where they are and tried to express that there is a very large number of enemies that are actively searching for them at the moment and their trap isn't going to hinder that many especially with how far from an exit they are. Do I just let it play out or should I ruin immersion and explain that this is a bad idea?
Let it play out. It's better for the integrity of your world.
You can keep it in game by leaning on the characters with high wisdom scores and basically tell them via their passive perception features that their character's "read" on the tactic is bad for the reasons you've outlined. And that's it, if they hose themselves and grief at you, you can say as DM you did your best even telling them that they're characters should have, in fact did know better in this event.
As DM you can't outright stop players wanting to commit to stupid. But it's totally within your prerogative to explain what the characters would likely be feeling in a situation where an absurd tactic was being deployed. You're actually providing greater immersion that way by helping the players understand what their characters see in the world. But again, don't press, it's not your fault if the party TPK themselves because of an ill considered trick that the DM telegraphed as "BAD IDEA' through narration.
Tactical thinking is often more a learned or even studied thing than an inspired or innate talent thing. There's really nothing wrong with tutoring players in how to process your environments.
Hm wouldn't it be an intelligence check to derive strategy and tactical information.
You can keep it in game by leaning on the characters with high wisdom scores and basically tell them via their passive perception features that their character's "read" on the tactic is bad for the reasons you've outlined. And that's it, if they hose themselves and grief at you, you can say as DM you did your best even telling them that they're characters should have, in fact did know better in this event.
As DM you can't outright stop players wanting to commit to stupid. But it's totally within your prerogative to explain what the characters would likely be feeling in a situation where an absurd tactic was being deployed. You're actually providing greater immersion that way by helping the players understand what their characters see in the world. But again, don't press, it's not your fault if the party TPK themselves because of an ill considered trick that the DM telegraphed as "BAD IDEA' through narration.
Tactical thinking is often more a learned or even studied thing than an inspired or innate talent thing. There's really nothing wrong with tutoring players in how to process your environments.
I really love this answer, and I think there’s some very good advice here generally in this thread. “let it play out” is the theme and I couldn’t agree more.
I want to add that a TPK != ended campaign. this is dungeons & dragons, death is sometimes only the beginning. they all died escaping the dungeon? let them try and escape the underworld now. have a planar entity make them an offer they can’t refuse.
and who says they have to die? non-lethal damage and capture is a viable option.
you’ve got a lot of room to maneuver here and tbh, the protagonists jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire is a narrative trope for a reason.
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Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
You can keep it in game by leaning on the characters with high wisdom scores and basically tell them via their passive perception features that their character's "read" on the tactic is bad for the reasons you've outlined. And that's it, if they hose themselves and grief at you, you can say as DM you did your best even telling them that they're characters should have, in fact did know better in this event.
As DM you can't outright stop players wanting to commit to stupid. But it's totally within your prerogative to explain what the characters would likely be feeling in a situation where an absurd tactic was being deployed. You're actually providing greater immersion that way by helping the players understand what their characters see in the world. But again, don't press, it's not your fault if the party TPK themselves because of an ill considered trick that the DM telegraphed as "BAD IDEA' through narration.
Tactical thinking is often more a learned or even studied thing than an inspired or innate talent thing. There's really nothing wrong with tutoring players in how to process your environments.
Hm wouldn't it be an intelligence check to derive strategy and tactical information.
I guess you could say my stance comes from situational awareness that the situation is "stupid" would be perception. If anything the scheme and the reality check against the scheme would be a classic D&D INT/WIS dichotomy. INT determines that the tactic's mechanisms are something the party could do ... WIS adjudicates whether the party should do.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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I am dming for three players that are currently in the middle of a large dungeon and are trying to set a trap to help themselves escape. The problem with this is that they are literally in the dead center and have no chance of pulling this off with the desired effects. I feel that I explained it to them where they are and tried to express that there is a very large number of enemies that are actively searching for them at the moment and their trap isn't going to hinder that many especially with how far from an exit they are. Do I just let it play out or should I ruin immersion and explain that this is a bad idea?
You can keep it in game by leaning on the characters with high wisdom scores and basically tell them via their passive perception features that their character's "read" on the tactic is bad for the reasons you've outlined. And that's it, if they hose themselves and grief at you, you can say as DM you did your best even telling them that they're characters should have, in fact did know better in this event.
As DM you can't outright stop players wanting to commit to stupid. But it's totally within your prerogative to explain what the characters would likely be feeling in a situation where an absurd tactic was being deployed. You're actually providing greater immersion that way by helping the players understand what their characters see in the world. But again, don't press, it's not your fault if the party TPK themselves because of an ill considered trick that the DM telegraphed as "BAD IDEA' through narration.
Tactical thinking is often more a learned or even studied thing than an inspired or innate talent thing. There's really nothing wrong with tutoring players in how to process your environments.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Agree with @MidnightPlat
I will also say, as a DM, it is within your power to create a scenario that supports the decision of the characters. In the example you give, unless I'm reading it wrong, setting a trap doesn't seem like a stupid course of action, given how players or characters might think in the moment. It seems that way to YOU, the Dm, but you also have insight the players don't. Rule number one of DMing tends to be that nothing goes according to your plan. Obviously, I don't have all the info (what the enemies are, how many, what the dungeon is like, etc.), but it's not to say that you couldn't work with their solution.
However, if it really is that idiotic it won't 'ruin immersion' per se to say, "everyone roll a wisdom (survival) check for this plan)". Just nudge those that succeed to say that this might not be the best course of action, then remind them of the stakes. Then let them disperse that info to the group in character. It won't ruin immersion. It's just good Dming. Hope this helps
BTW, like the Redwall reference @dndtaggerung
Updog
Short answer: I would let it pay out, see long answer below for why.
Long answer: What is the trap idea? Why is there no chance of it working? Some more details are needed in order to give solid advice. There is probably a good workaround.
Example: they are in the dead center of the dungeon, they set up explosives to blow up when someone walks through X hallway. What they don’t know is that there are 250 enemy’s searching the dungeon looking for them. The result of the explosion will draw all enemies to them, there is no way they can beat all those enemies coming from all sides.
My solution to my above example scenario would be that the explosion created a hole that opened up a subterranean passageway, or a cave system, or the ruins of an even older dudgeon. The parties trap did not work the way they wanted it to, but it did give them a means of escape…. Possibly.
Here is the issue with the party rolling a check to “realize” that the idea is bad. Everyone rolls below a 10, or below a 5 whatever you set the DC at. Now based on low rolls instead of the PCs “realizing” it’s a bad idea and won’t work, you have to give them the opposite result, and they all have a stroke of genius and are positive this is the best idea ever.
I generally like to find a way to make whatever my players come up with happen even if it doesn’t accomplish what they intended. I just think being flexible and creative is better than having the party role dice to learn that something is a bad idea, as stated above dice rolling needs to have the negative possibility also, imo.
Let it play out.
I have a dungeon that I've used a few times. There are different elemental rooms, and in one of those rooms on a stone pillar sits a large egg. The column itself is flanked by two fire elementals. Each elemental room contains the relevant elementals, and depending on how I've set it up anywhere from 1-6 of the 8 chests are mimics. This is on top of traps etc.
Despite this I have, almost every time had a player who has seen the egg and gone...I want that. In one case it was a level 2 fighter, and level 2 monk/warlock who'd separated from the group. Players are their own worst enemy most times. You would think 'big, scary looking creatures made from what appears to be living lava and flames staring directly at you with what you're sure is a menacing...what pass for eyes' would be enough to signal to players that...no, you're not ready for this fight yet.
I once had a DM tell me that you need to take the players problem solving/tactical ability and assume that when they play they operate with only a quarter of those abilities. I've kinda found that to be true.
I'm always inwardly cheering for my players. I want them to succeed. That said, part of the collaborative, and open nature of TTRPGs is the ability to make a stupid mistake. So let them. I find often that letting players make potentially deadly mistakes with their characters opens their eyes to the fact that this world isn't on rails, and that they have a true freedom.
If characters do die, I would add however that you should earmark the last portion of your session for a bit of a send off. I have an OOC chat with everyone along the lines of 'look, I want you to have free choices, and I'm sorry that your choice caused your character to die. I remember that one thing your character did that was just so funny/brave/insane... I'm going to miss your character.' Then allow other players to chip in, give the character(s) a bit of a send off as players. It helps to show that you're not acting against the players or their characters and that these are the risks for your characters when they ignore the info given by DM.
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Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Thanks to all the replies so far. Sorry for being vague at first. I wasn't sure if one of my players used this resource or not. Turns out he doesn't so I can expand more. They are half a mile into (literally in the middle of) a goblinoid horde's lair and are being actively searched for at the moment. The Hobgoblin in charge just sent all of his horde to search for them. Most headed toward the entrance/exit they know of to search. The party put down a 10 foot pit in the middle of the hall and used the rangers spider companion to make a loose web over it to hide it. Theyare going to scream to draw attention in hopes the pit catches enemies and deters pursuit. The problem is that they have essentially trapped themselves on the side of the pit with most of the horde and are half a mile from the exit. I plan on having the horde capture them if they don't manage a miracle so I'm not worried about a tpk, I just don't want them to have their fun ruined by something they planned not working.
Let it play out. If they die then they die. Too many DM’s are scared of a tpk these days. Players will never learn and improve their game if they keep getting mollycoddled all the time.
Let it play out. It's better for the integrity of your world.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Hm wouldn't it be an intelligence check to derive strategy and tactical information.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I really love this answer, and I think there’s some very good advice here generally in this thread. “let it play out” is the theme and I couldn’t agree more.
I want to add that a TPK != ended campaign. this is dungeons & dragons, death is sometimes only the beginning. they all died escaping the dungeon? let them try and escape the underworld now. have a planar entity make them an offer they can’t refuse.
and who says they have to die? non-lethal damage and capture is a viable option.
you’ve got a lot of room to maneuver here and tbh, the protagonists jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire is a narrative trope for a reason.
Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
I guess you could say my stance comes from situational awareness that the situation is "stupid" would be perception. If anything the scheme and the reality check against the scheme would be a classic D&D INT/WIS dichotomy. INT determines that the tactic's mechanisms are something the party could do ... WIS adjudicates whether the party should do.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.