I run an after-school D&D club for middle schoolers (ages 11-13), and it’s a blast! This is their first time playing a tabletop RPG, although they have experience with computer-based RPGs. I’ve been introducing the game slowly, and most of them can reliably roll for initiative and know their AC and HP, but saving throws still mystify them.
We’re leveling up to level five soon, and I want to make it a big deal while also turning it into a teaching moment. They’ll get magic gear and have been scouring the PHB for what they might want. It occurred to me that I could encourage them to engage more deeply with their character sheets. Here’s what I’ve come up with for some structured but limited changes:
I LIKE THESE:
Take a point from one ability score (STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, or CHA) and add it to a different ability score.
Take two points from HP and add one to your AC.
Take one point from your AC and add two to your HP.
I’M LESS SURE OF THESE:
Take your proficiency bonus from your to-hit and add it to your AC.
Take one point from your AC and add it to your to-hit for one weapon.
Take five feet from your walking speed to gain the same climbing speed and advantage on Strength checks while climbing.
Swap out the ability modifier for one skill (e.g., use INT for Stealth instead of DEX).
Allow players to gain resistance to a condition (like poisoned, frightened, or charmed) by sacrificing a hit die during a short or long rest.
Allow players to trade proficiency in a skill for resistance to a condition (e.g., give up proficiency in Insight to gain resistance to being charmed).
Take the proficiency used in a skill and apply it to a saving throw (e.g., lose proficiency in Stealth but gain proficiency in WIS saving throws).
I mostly want them to think about how the values and numbers on the sheet interact and connect. I also want them to consider what is truly valuable to their character. There’s been little to no actual role play so far, but I hope this will encourage them to realize, for example, that AC might be more important to them than their ability to hit.
I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on this setup, especially before I put it into action.
If they're already having some trouble understanding the relationship between stats and their effectiveness in combat, I do not see a benefit in asking them to make changes to their sheet which they won't understand the implications of. In addition, 2 points of HP for 1 AC is too strong.
I think a better approach to helping the players understand would be with practical examples to teach them organically. Maybe make a battle or a in-universe "training battle" against some homebrewed enemies. For example, a group of enemies which has 10 HP, but 20 AC, and which deal 1d4 damage. For purposes of training, you could make an exception to hiding information and tell the players up front that the enemies have just 10 HP, but 20 AC. The players will struggle to hit the enemies, but will eventually take them down, and they'll likely be surprised that something with so little HP was so hard to kill. I think that will likely be a better way to teach them, through actual experience, than just asking them to move numbers around on a sheet will.
You could do another example with enemies of a kind they've already fought which have higher HP than normal, and higher to-hit as well, but lower AC. You get the idea. Teach through experience.
(In addition, it might not be a great idea to set expectations that moving numbers around on the sheet is something which is part of the game.)
Less Sure
1. Broken.
3. Unfun reduction in movement for a very niche benefit.
4. It's already part of the rules that the DM can allow for using different ability scores for skills, such as Strength for Intimidation, which is normally Charisma.
5. 6. Probably far too strong, and if there aren't any statuses of those kind then it'll feel like a waste.
7. Broken and will likely produce un-fun outcomes as players fail skill checks which they could have passed.
Thank you for this thoughtful response, Stabbey. I feel like that's what I've been doing through the first six months of game play, but you may be right.
I was hoping that when they see an increase to strength would improve their to hit and damage; an increase to dexterity, their AC;r an increase to CON, HP, or an increase to caster ability, increases to spell DC. Also, to their individual ST and skill modifiers. I'm not sure how to get through to them otherwise other than saying, change this number and look at what else changes.
Here's an example. Our paladin has an AC of 20 due to dwarven plate mail. The other fighters know that and are envious, but they didn't make the "good" choices the paladin did in coming up with the dwarven plate mail. Their AC's aren't bad 18 for the melee fighter and 16 for the archer. However, they look at her AC and see it only as a product of the armor she's wearing and not about the choices she made when it was time to pick or buy armor.
Part of the game is a fundamental trade off between one thing and another. That's one of the points I'm trying to drive home. Look at your character sheet and your character. What is important to them? What are you willing to sacrifice to get it? That's why the point buy and standar array systems of ability scores works. Yo'ure forced to make choices. When we made characters, they were all too overwhelmed with the numbers to really get that. I helped a lot by asking what they were going for and making very pointed suggestions.
Now, they've got some playing time under their belts, and they've been through some tough fights -- two owlbears killed (failed death saves) the cleric and they had to get him resurrected. It was a very sobering play session for them. They've got a better understanding of how the game mechanics work.
I was thinking that this approach was more of a pulling a puppet's strings and seeing what moved. If you decrease your DEX from 13 to 12, your bonus stays the same, but if you increase your STR from 17 to 18, you get a +4 bonus rather than a +3. Now, your to hit and damage values have increased as have yourSTR ST and STR-based skills.
I have started letting them know the AC of their opponents for reasons similar to what you've suggested.
My other thought was to help them start thinking of their characters as having some agency and personality. That the character might have something they wanted, like being safer, so being willing to give up some HP to get AC rather than offering them +1 armor or a +1 weapon.
As it is, one of the players took the lucky feat and NEVER remembers to use luck points. Another took heavy armor master and doesn't remember to use the damage reduction. I've got to get them to focus more on their character sheets and to look for these things. I'm just not sure how, especially so it doesn't feel like being in class.
I had tried cheatsheets -- Don't forget to use your inspiration! -- but they were used only when I reminded them to check the cheatsheet for ideas. Of course, one was lost immediately and the other some how left the classroom never to return (I had been keeping them). Partly, it is the fun of playing with twelve year olds.
I will take your idea of setting up "fights" with set values and mull it over this week. I've got a couple of weeks before we level up.
"Part of the game is a fundamental trade off between one thing and another. That's one of the points I'm trying to drive home. "
You might need to take this point and use non game examples. The problem is a middle schooler does not have enough life experience to fully comprehend tradeoff concept. (I wonder about some 20 year olds understanding tradeoff as well).
If others are "jealous/envious or just green eyed, have the group retire there characters, then start over with 1 level characters. Now try to drive home tradeoffs as they have some previous experience, but it does not affect the new characters.
P.S. For the new characters, give them all the exact same ability numbers. Allow them to subtract one # and add it to another number. The similarity might help teach trade offs. After a few sessions, let them decide which character (retired or current) is used for the next few sessions.
That's an interesting approach, Character. I had thought about that since their level up to five coincides with the end of our campaign and the start of a new one.
I remember learning the game back in early high school. Of course, then it was ADnD and we had to know your THAC0. I can't do anything in DnD without I first thinking about THAC0. Honestly, I'm psychically scarred. But, the game is complicated and requires a lot of executive functioning and cognitive load. I've tried the cheatsheets before, maybe I need to go back to them. It is confusing for them and a lot to think about.
Now that they're kind of getting the hang of it, they might could appreciate starting a new character. Half of the fun of playing is character building.
I run a kids group for 12-16 year olds and have a lot of the same problems. Some of the players know every aspect of their character sheet inside and out while others know exactly one move and are happy to do that every combat until the monster dies. I've got one player that will choose different classes each time he creates a new one character but will try and play each of them as a spell caster (the most recent being a Barbarian with the Magic Initiate Feat) with the exception of the one time he played a Wizard in which case he cast True Strike every round and just hit people with his staff.
The difference in my case is that after 2 years I've realised this is neither a problem that can be solved nor a problem that really needs to be solved. The reason some of the players don't understand their sheets isn't because I've not explained it but because they don't care, they've got enough on their plates with school without spending their Saturdays also studying to get to a level I'd like them at. They're the teenage equivalent of the beer and pretzels players, they just want to hang out with their mates and have fun and so long as the monster dies they've had fun. School clubs are a little different from adult games in that it's harder to fine tune a table to have all the "right" type of player for your game, you have to accept who turns up, but that doesn't change that there are different types of players looking for different types of fun
I've now stopped worrying about whether they all understand their character sheets, instead suggesting features that might be useful as they come up in the game, and I'm now just focusing on offering a nice varied game so that every player gets at least some of the type of game they're interested in playing
You're probably already doing this, but I just want to call out that it is okay to be explicit in describing the lesson you want to teach, and then demonstrate it in game with the "story" to build understanding and reinforce. Then after, go back to the lesson concept and tie it back into how the combats played out.
There are some good math lessons, if that's what you're trying to do, around, would you rather have +3 or Advantage on an attack say? Like this is a fabulous video if you're unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DdGRjtwAo
I love the idea of giving them two sample combats - one with monsters with high AC and low HP and one with high HP and low AC. Then ask them: what was the difference? How many rounds did it take to kill the different kinds off? Which felt more dangerous and which felt more fun and why? Did these combats come close to average or did some Nat 20s or Nat 1s change the results for these trials, IE what would they predict would be typical? It's a great meta conversation to get them thinking and a pretty simple idea that builds understanding of the math patterns.
Wow, Foolish, that was really helpful. I enjoyed the math video.
Yeah, I already have been relating the numbers to their effects as best I can. When we level up, the character with the CON bonus, I'll remark on what a difference it made. The archer has a +10 to hit, not only because he has a good DEX (+3) but because he took archer twice. Once as a feat at level four and once as fighting style, so he gets a +4 bonus from that alone.
Where I realized my failing though was in watching them take their level four feats. Few of them took a feat that would affect one of the core abilities. They all had their reasons for taking their feat, but none of them really seemed to get the relationship between the numbers, even my budding min-maxer. All he seems to know is that high numbers are better, so crank them all!
The other part of the game and gaming session is what I'm calling the video game or social media effect. If we're not in combat, I get very little from the players. In fact, I had thought about "banning" playing other games or using social media during gaming sessions, but realized they'd all rather stop coming to DnD than stop their gaming. So, when we do anything on a character sheet, I have to do it player by player because I can't project one player sheet on the board and explain the change that you'll make and have others be able to follow it and do theirs. In short, they're going at the speed of twitter and I'm wanting to go at the speed of ADnD, which is the game I still play in my head.
The conundrum is how to get them to focus on the mechanics of the game. Fighting multiple monsters with multiple AC's and HP's probably isn't as effective as fighting one type of monster with high AC and low HP then moving on to another type with low AC and high HP. That is a good suggestion. Right now, they all have the character sheet thing that they would like to have changed. The fighters want higher AC and the cleric, HP. One of the wizards wants to be a spell slinger, the other a crafter (probably should've been an artificer, but I limited classes to what I consider the core, fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard just for simplicity's sake. Same for species).
Everything has gotten better. They are working together more, but still every decision the party makes is me going around calling each by name and asking what they want to do. They have started to anticipate the more frequently used skill rolls and almost always know where to find them on their character sheet. Almost.
I keep coming back to the complexity of the rule set and how it isn't until you start seeing the relationship between the numbers and how the changes have a cascading effect across the game that you really start to know it. So, that was my real goal with all of this. I'm starting to see how my idea may not be as useful as I initially thought, so I'm glad I brought it to the forum and got some valuable feedback.
It is greatly appreciated.
Game On, Sibling! Jack
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Howdy y'all!
I run an after-school D&D club for middle schoolers (ages 11-13), and it’s a blast! This is their first time playing a tabletop RPG, although they have experience with computer-based RPGs. I’ve been introducing the game slowly, and most of them can reliably roll for initiative and know their AC and HP, but saving throws still mystify them.
We’re leveling up to level five soon, and I want to make it a big deal while also turning it into a teaching moment. They’ll get magic gear and have been scouring the PHB for what they might want. It occurred to me that I could encourage them to engage more deeply with their character sheets. Here’s what I’ve come up with for some structured but limited changes:
I LIKE THESE:
I’M LESS SURE OF THESE:
I mostly want them to think about how the values and numbers on the sheet interact and connect. I also want them to consider what is truly valuable to their character. There’s been little to no actual role play so far, but I hope this will encourage them to realize, for example, that AC might be more important to them than their ability to hit.
I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on this setup, especially before I put it into action.
Game On, Siblings!
Jack
If they're already having some trouble understanding the relationship between stats and their effectiveness in combat, I do not see a benefit in asking them to make changes to their sheet which they won't understand the implications of. In addition, 2 points of HP for 1 AC is too strong.
I think a better approach to helping the players understand would be with practical examples to teach them organically. Maybe make a battle or a in-universe "training battle" against some homebrewed enemies. For example, a group of enemies which has 10 HP, but 20 AC, and which deal 1d4 damage. For purposes of training, you could make an exception to hiding information and tell the players up front that the enemies have just 10 HP, but 20 AC. The players will struggle to hit the enemies, but will eventually take them down, and they'll likely be surprised that something with so little HP was so hard to kill. I think that will likely be a better way to teach them, through actual experience, than just asking them to move numbers around on a sheet will.
You could do another example with enemies of a kind they've already fought which have higher HP than normal, and higher to-hit as well, but lower AC. You get the idea. Teach through experience.
(In addition, it might not be a great idea to set expectations that moving numbers around on the sheet is something which is part of the game.)
Less Sure
1. Broken.
3. Unfun reduction in movement for a very niche benefit.
4. It's already part of the rules that the DM can allow for using different ability scores for skills, such as Strength for Intimidation, which is normally Charisma.
5. 6. Probably far too strong, and if there aren't any statuses of those kind then it'll feel like a waste.
7. Broken and will likely produce un-fun outcomes as players fail skill checks which they could have passed.
Thank you for this thoughtful response, Stabbey. I feel like that's what I've been doing through the first six months of game play, but you may be right.
I was hoping that when they see an increase to strength would improve their to hit and damage; an increase to dexterity, their AC;r an increase to CON, HP, or an increase to caster ability, increases to spell DC. Also, to their individual ST and skill modifiers. I'm not sure how to get through to them otherwise other than saying, change this number and look at what else changes.
Here's an example. Our paladin has an AC of 20 due to dwarven plate mail. The other fighters know that and are envious, but they didn't make the "good" choices the paladin did in coming up with the dwarven plate mail. Their AC's aren't bad 18 for the melee fighter and 16 for the archer. However, they look at her AC and see it only as a product of the armor she's wearing and not about the choices she made when it was time to pick or buy armor.
Part of the game is a fundamental trade off between one thing and another. That's one of the points I'm trying to drive home. Look at your character sheet and your character. What is important to them? What are you willing to sacrifice to get it? That's why the point buy and standar array systems of ability scores works. Yo'ure forced to make choices. When we made characters, they were all too overwhelmed with the numbers to really get that. I helped a lot by asking what they were going for and making very pointed suggestions.
Now, they've got some playing time under their belts, and they've been through some tough fights -- two owlbears killed (failed death saves) the cleric and they had to get him resurrected. It was a very sobering play session for them. They've got a better understanding of how the game mechanics work.
I was thinking that this approach was more of a pulling a puppet's strings and seeing what moved. If you decrease your DEX from 13 to 12, your bonus stays the same, but if you increase your STR from 17 to 18, you get a +4 bonus rather than a +3. Now, your to hit and damage values have increased as have yourSTR ST and STR-based skills.
I have started letting them know the AC of their opponents for reasons similar to what you've suggested.
My other thought was to help them start thinking of their characters as having some agency and personality. That the character might have something they wanted, like being safer, so being willing to give up some HP to get AC rather than offering them +1 armor or a +1 weapon.
As it is, one of the players took the lucky feat and NEVER remembers to use luck points. Another took heavy armor master and doesn't remember to use the damage reduction. I've got to get them to focus more on their character sheets and to look for these things. I'm just not sure how, especially so it doesn't feel like being in class.
I had tried cheatsheets -- Don't forget to use your inspiration! -- but they were used only when I reminded them to check the cheatsheet for ideas. Of course, one was lost immediately and the other some how left the classroom never to return (I had been keeping them). Partly, it is the fun of playing with twelve year olds.
I will take your idea of setting up "fights" with set values and mull it over this week. I've got a couple of weeks before we level up.
Thank you for your feedback! It is appreciated.
Jack
"Part of the game is a fundamental trade off between one thing and another. That's one of the points I'm trying to drive home. "
You might need to take this point and use non game examples. The problem is a middle schooler does not have enough life experience to fully comprehend tradeoff concept. (I wonder about some 20 year olds understanding tradeoff as well).
If others are "jealous/envious or just green eyed, have the group retire there characters, then start over with 1 level characters. Now try to drive home tradeoffs as they have some previous experience, but it does not affect the new characters.
P.S. For the new characters, give them all the exact same ability numbers. Allow them to subtract one # and add it to another number. The similarity might help teach trade offs. After a few sessions, let them decide which character (retired or current) is used for the next few sessions.
That's an interesting approach, Character. I had thought about that since their level up to five coincides with the end of our campaign and the start of a new one.
I remember learning the game back in early high school. Of course, then it was ADnD and we had to know your THAC0. I can't do anything in DnD without I first thinking about THAC0. Honestly, I'm psychically scarred. But, the game is complicated and requires a lot of executive functioning and cognitive load. I've tried the cheatsheets before, maybe I need to go back to them. It is confusing for them and a lot to think about.
Now that they're kind of getting the hang of it, they might could appreciate starting a new character. Half of the fun of playing is character building.
Huzzah!
Jack
I run a kids group for 12-16 year olds and have a lot of the same problems. Some of the players know every aspect of their character sheet inside and out while others know exactly one move and are happy to do that every combat until the monster dies. I've got one player that will choose different classes each time he creates a new one character but will try and play each of them as a spell caster (the most recent being a Barbarian with the Magic Initiate Feat) with the exception of the one time he played a Wizard in which case he cast True Strike every round and just hit people with his staff.
The difference in my case is that after 2 years I've realised this is neither a problem that can be solved nor a problem that really needs to be solved. The reason some of the players don't understand their sheets isn't because I've not explained it but because they don't care, they've got enough on their plates with school without spending their Saturdays also studying to get to a level I'd like them at. They're the teenage equivalent of the beer and pretzels players, they just want to hang out with their mates and have fun and so long as the monster dies they've had fun. School clubs are a little different from adult games in that it's harder to fine tune a table to have all the "right" type of player for your game, you have to accept who turns up, but that doesn't change that there are different types of players looking for different types of fun
I've now stopped worrying about whether they all understand their character sheets, instead suggesting features that might be useful as they come up in the game, and I'm now just focusing on offering a nice varied game so that every player gets at least some of the type of game they're interested in playing
You're probably already doing this, but I just want to call out that it is okay to be explicit in describing the lesson you want to teach, and then demonstrate it in game with the "story" to build understanding and reinforce. Then after, go back to the lesson concept and tie it back into how the combats played out.
There are some good math lessons, if that's what you're trying to do, around, would you rather have +3 or Advantage on an attack say? Like this is a fabulous video if you're unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DdGRjtwAo
I love the idea of giving them two sample combats - one with monsters with high AC and low HP and one with high HP and low AC. Then ask them: what was the difference? How many rounds did it take to kill the different kinds off? Which felt more dangerous and which felt more fun and why? Did these combats come close to average or did some Nat 20s or Nat 1s change the results for these trials, IE what would they predict would be typical? It's a great meta conversation to get them thinking and a pretty simple idea that builds understanding of the math patterns.
Wow, Foolish, that was really helpful. I enjoyed the math video.
Yeah, I already have been relating the numbers to their effects as best I can. When we level up, the character with the CON bonus, I'll remark on what a difference it made. The archer has a +10 to hit, not only because he has a good DEX (+3) but because he took archer twice. Once as a feat at level four and once as fighting style, so he gets a +4 bonus from that alone.
Where I realized my failing though was in watching them take their level four feats. Few of them took a feat that would affect one of the core abilities. They all had their reasons for taking their feat, but none of them really seemed to get the relationship between the numbers, even my budding min-maxer. All he seems to know is that high numbers are better, so crank them all!
The other part of the game and gaming session is what I'm calling the video game or social media effect. If we're not in combat, I get very little from the players. In fact, I had thought about "banning" playing other games or using social media during gaming sessions, but realized they'd all rather stop coming to DnD than stop their gaming. So, when we do anything on a character sheet, I have to do it player by player because I can't project one player sheet on the board and explain the change that you'll make and have others be able to follow it and do theirs. In short, they're going at the speed of twitter and I'm wanting to go at the speed of ADnD, which is the game I still play in my head.
The conundrum is how to get them to focus on the mechanics of the game. Fighting multiple monsters with multiple AC's and HP's probably isn't as effective as fighting one type of monster with high AC and low HP then moving on to another type with low AC and high HP. That is a good suggestion. Right now, they all have the character sheet thing that they would like to have changed. The fighters want higher AC and the cleric, HP. One of the wizards wants to be a spell slinger, the other a crafter (probably should've been an artificer, but I limited classes to what I consider the core, fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard just for simplicity's sake. Same for species).
Everything has gotten better. They are working together more, but still every decision the party makes is me going around calling each by name and asking what they want to do. They have started to anticipate the more frequently used skill rolls and almost always know where to find them on their character sheet. Almost.
I keep coming back to the complexity of the rule set and how it isn't until you start seeing the relationship between the numbers and how the changes have a cascading effect across the game that you really start to know it. So, that was my real goal with all of this. I'm starting to see how my idea may not be as useful as I initially thought, so I'm glad I brought it to the forum and got some valuable feedback.
It is greatly appreciated.
Game On, Sibling!
Jack