so my players are playing through waterdeep dragon heist and they decided to reopen the tavern in there troll skull manor which everything is going well for that so far and they are making quite the profit from it but one of my players asked to host a gambling tournament to get a bigger income of money, entry fee type deal with the house earning a portion of the money made from the end of each round, im lost on how to handle mechanics for this, the players themselves wouldnt be playing in the tournament its strictly a way to make money off of npc's but also dont want to give them to much gold at once so im already thinking of holding said tournament once a month just so its one lump of extra profit, any ideas?
Mostly, something like that falls under the general category of running a business, there isn't a strong need for additional rules beyond what it already has about running a tavern. Realistically, anything that has potential to make a large amount of money will also cost a large amount of money and time to set up (probably longer than the duration of the adventure).
I know from talking to professional gamblers that Vegas odds are not as overwhelming as you might think. The house wins roughly 51% of the time which is enough to justify the biggest adult playground on the planet. My recommendation would be to take the running a business rules and double all the profits and all the losses for a month's span that takes place in a single day with no modifiers for time investment, advertising, etc. That's what gambling is. The players could either win a bunch of money at once or lose their shirts.
Edit: Not to mention the additional taxes that Waterdeep will demand on the players' winnings.
You might want to make a table on how many people show up d100. Then, depending on what advertisement they do and how much is winnings and fee they get more or less potential people. for example- base is d100 divided by 2= people who show up so 0-50 rounding down. They advertise with posters that are in the town square, and they set a 100gp prize, entry fee 1gp you could raise it to d100+d20= people who show up. You can use anything you think is fair and you should probably roll 1d20 every 10 people and on a 1 (or more if you want) there is a cheater or charlatan that does something (your choice) to cheat.
If you want to minimize the profits and income, taxes and robbers are a great way to reduce that amount of funding. Banking recession can further wipe out pots of gold in a repository.
It can open up further adventuring as well. Crime lords having meetings etc.
Keep in mind that the average NPC isn't rich like adventurers. Just looking at the PHB, a typical skilled hireling might cost 2gp/day while an unskilled hireling might earn 2sp/day. However, the lifestyle expenses are 1sp for squalid, 2sp for poor, 1gp for modest and 2gp for comfortable. A skilled hireling with a comfortable lifestyle would have very little savings. Same with an unskilled hireling with a poor lifestyle.
Assuming that typical salaries and lifestyle costs are in this range, most of the typical population wouldn't have that much to gamble with in the first place.
In order to make any money, the characters would need to attract a decent number of wealthy patrons. In addition, if the house took a large enough cut that they earn a really significant income each day or tournament, then the patrons would probably notice and not come back. The odds need to be close to 50/50 ish with a small edge towards the house to keep people coming back since it is a chance to win that drives the desire to gamble. Convince people that they can't win by not paying out enough and they will go elsewhere. Casinos really make their money by having many people gambling so that the total gambled is large and the small margin gives the house the profits/return they are looking for.
In case you are curious, this article had a cool table listing the percentage that various games favor the house.
P.S. So in the context of Dragon Heist - unless the players have some good ideas to get a lot of players into their establishment - or otherwise get people gambling a lot of gold - there won't be huge profits available - so maybe something like a few gp more/month in income for events.
e.g. if the bar wants to charge a 1gp entry fee - which sounds trivial to adventurers. They would need to attract wealthier business people or nobles or perhaps some frugal skilled tradesmen - but frugal skilled tradesmen might not be the type most interested in gambling. :)
Realistically, it takes money to make money, and most businesses will run at a loss for a pretty significant time after starting up. A gambling establishment is no different. Of course, realism has only a passing relationship with D&D, so as a DM you certainly can decide to let some of the PCs plans work remarkably well, but the reality is... if the players propose a scheme that's so easy anyone could do it, either someone has already done it, there's a reason it doesn't get done, or it just won't pay off significantly over the timescale of a typical campaign.
My biggest worry would be that it becomes an ongoing thing. It's one thing to have a fun one time "okay who can you recruit, how much are they willing to pony up, how will you keep them safe?" etc. Because to get the most money you need to attract the "Biggest rollers". And as you saw in Honor Among Thieves, when a lot of rich people come together to gamble, there are going to be people looking to capitalize.
Though that could be a fun side twist: A group of adventurers roll up to try to rob the inn during the gambling event. A lot of those profits can go into security.
I would also suggest watching the old Musical "Guys and Dolls" of note is the scene where they're shooting craps in the sewers. Nathan Detroit as the host takes a cut from every pot and it's not long before one of the gamblers decides he's not just gonna win money from the other gamblers, he's going after the house directly. Again, plot twist?
so my players are playing through waterdeep dragon heist and they decided to reopen the tavern in there troll skull manor which everything is going well for that so far and they are making quite the profit from it but one of my players asked to host a gambling tournament to get a bigger income of money, entry fee type deal with the house earning a portion of the money made from the end of each round, im lost on how to handle mechanics for this, the players themselves wouldnt be playing in the tournament its strictly a way to make money off of npc's but also dont want to give them to much gold at once so im already thinking of holding said tournament once a month just so its one lump of extra profit, any ideas?
Mostly, something like that falls under the general category of running a business, there isn't a strong need for additional rules beyond what it already has about running a tavern. Realistically, anything that has potential to make a large amount of money will also cost a large amount of money and time to set up (probably longer than the duration of the adventure).
that actually makes a lot of sense thank you
Of course, if the idea of a tournament gives you an interesting adventure idea, go ahead and ignore realism.
I know from talking to professional gamblers that Vegas odds are not as overwhelming as you might think. The house wins roughly 51% of the time which is enough to justify the biggest adult playground on the planet. My recommendation would be to take the running a business rules and double all the profits and all the losses for a month's span that takes place in a single day with no modifiers for time investment, advertising, etc. That's what gambling is. The players could either win a bunch of money at once or lose their shirts.
Edit: Not to mention the additional taxes that Waterdeep will demand on the players' winnings.
You might want to make a table on how many people show up d100. Then, depending on what advertisement they do and how much is winnings and fee they get more or less potential people. for example- base is d100 divided by 2= people who show up so 0-50 rounding down. They advertise with posters that are in the town square, and they set a 100gp prize, entry fee 1gp you could raise it to d100+d20= people who show up. You can use anything you think is fair and you should probably roll 1d20 every 10 people and on a 1 (or more if you want) there is a cheater or charlatan that does something (your choice) to cheat.
that actually makes a lot of sense
If you want to minimize the profits and income, taxes and robbers are a great way to reduce that amount of funding. Banking recession can further wipe out pots of gold in a repository.
It can open up further adventuring as well. Crime lords having meetings etc.
Keep in mind that the average NPC isn't rich like adventurers. Just looking at the PHB, a typical skilled hireling might cost 2gp/day while an unskilled hireling might earn 2sp/day. However, the lifestyle expenses are 1sp for squalid, 2sp for poor, 1gp for modest and 2gp for comfortable. A skilled hireling with a comfortable lifestyle would have very little savings. Same with an unskilled hireling with a poor lifestyle.
Assuming that typical salaries and lifestyle costs are in this range, most of the typical population wouldn't have that much to gamble with in the first place.
In order to make any money, the characters would need to attract a decent number of wealthy patrons. In addition, if the house took a large enough cut that they earn a really significant income each day or tournament, then the patrons would probably notice and not come back. The odds need to be close to 50/50 ish with a small edge towards the house to keep people coming back since it is a chance to win that drives the desire to gamble. Convince people that they can't win by not paying out enough and they will go elsewhere. Casinos really make their money by having many people gambling so that the total gambled is large and the small margin gives the house the profits/return they are looking for.
In case you are curious, this article had a cool table listing the percentage that various games favor the house.
https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0910/casino-stats-why-gamblers-rarely-win.aspx
P.S. So in the context of Dragon Heist - unless the players have some good ideas to get a lot of players into their establishment - or otherwise get people gambling a lot of gold - there won't be huge profits available - so maybe something like a few gp more/month in income for events.
e.g. if the bar wants to charge a 1gp entry fee - which sounds trivial to adventurers. They would need to attract wealthier business people or nobles or perhaps some frugal skilled tradesmen - but frugal skilled tradesmen might not be the type most interested in gambling. :)
Realistically, it takes money to make money, and most businesses will run at a loss for a pretty significant time after starting up. A gambling establishment is no different. Of course, realism has only a passing relationship with D&D, so as a DM you certainly can decide to let some of the PCs plans work remarkably well, but the reality is... if the players propose a scheme that's so easy anyone could do it, either someone has already done it, there's a reason it doesn't get done, or it just won't pay off significantly over the timescale of a typical campaign.
My biggest worry would be that it becomes an ongoing thing. It's one thing to have a fun one time "okay who can you recruit, how much are they willing to pony up, how will you keep them safe?" etc. Because to get the most money you need to attract the "Biggest rollers". And as you saw in Honor Among Thieves, when a lot of rich people come together to gamble, there are going to be people looking to capitalize.
Though that could be a fun side twist: A group of adventurers roll up to try to rob the inn during the gambling event. A lot of those profits can go into security.
I would also suggest watching the old Musical "Guys and Dolls" of note is the scene where they're shooting craps in the sewers. Nathan Detroit as the host takes a cut from every pot and it's not long before one of the gamblers decides he's not just gonna win money from the other gamblers, he's going after the house directly. Again, plot twist?
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