Reaching to get a little advise on a situation that arise that was partially my fault and partially the dice god's fault.
Background: Campaign is Storm King's Thunder and have a party of 6. Entire campaign was humping right along just fine. DM (me) got a new miniature for a monster that was a fairly high CR but thought party could handle it. Whelp, I was wrong and 4 out of the 6 players ended up dying.
So being the nice DM that I am, am trying to come up with a way to bring the players back and save some face. Wanted to see if any other DM's might have run into a similar situation and how did you as the DM handled it.
TL:DR - Over zealous DM and bad rolls killed players. DM feels bad due to the high CR of the monster. Saving face by bringing players back but need Ideas.
First, what is a partial total party kill? If a member(s) of the party survived it is not a TPK.
My players have been pretty hard to kill in the module I ran, and they don't ask me to DM that often, so I haven't gotten to try often.
A nearby temple could offer their services (or a druid circle if you want to mix things up). Or an NPC could tell them about a ritual to revive the dead (but that usually has a session or two with dead PCs not participating). Have you asked the players if they want revived as opposed to rolling new characters?
CR is a guideline, but the dice gods are fickle. If you planned the encounter "by the numbers", and they still got stomped, that happens sometimes. If you blatantly ignored CR in favor of taking a new miniature for a ride ... that's on you.
If you discussed the possibilities of Character death in the game in session zero, and this outcome aligns with what was generally accepted by everyone, then maybe it is OK to just let this one ride. If the Players are OK with losing their Characters, this might be a non-problem apart from "DM Guilt", in which case, my advice would be to just let it go: chalk it up to experience, roll up new characters, and move on.
If you are the kind of DM who is willing to "pull punches" ( covertly, so that the Party doesn't feel cheated ), then you fudge die rolls while combat is going on; just don't get caught. That's clearly not an option anymore. You'll know for next time. If you're not the kind of DM who is willing to covertly fudge, I refer you back to point #2
There are number of ways to spin character death if you don't want to just go with point #2
The survivors of the Party team up with some hired help ( coincidentally run by the Players with dead characters ), to fulfill a quest for a local temple ( or some fey creature, or ... ), where the agreed upon price of the quest is the revival of the dead Characters.
The dead Characters all wake up somewhere - alive, with their equipment, unharmed - but ... something/someone has done this to them. There are elements of being cursed ( the Characters have bizarre cravings and/or have to do bizarre things to keep animate - domestic animals react badly to them - they light up if someone casts Detect Evil, or detects Undead ), there are elements of someone being able to jerk them around like puppets if they so wish, and someday the bill will come due. Unless - of course - the Party can find out who did this, why, what they want, and what it will take to pull their friends out of Revanant servitude.
Essentially, give the dead Characters a "pass" on being dead, but flip it into an adventure. There's a cost that needs to be paid, in the "in game world".
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CR is a guideline, but the dice gods are fickle. If you planned the encounter "by the numbers", and they still got stomped, that happens sometimes. If you blatantly ignored CR in favor of taking a new miniature for a ride ... that's on you.
Kill me once, shame on you. Kill me twice, shame on me.
Killing characters sucks for sure, but it's not always a bad thing or something the players are unhappy with. Some of your players might be satisfied with the epic death of fighting against this creature and excited about rolling up a new character. Others might want the chance for their character to come back. Once you know what they want you can work with them to make that happen in a way that is satisfying to the group and your story.
As a DM my primary focus is on my players having fun, and every one of my players find that fun in different ways. My first suggestion is to talk with your players and see what they want before you make any plans. And good luck!
1. Divine Intervention. Many gods would have interest in seeing the characters win. For some interesting conflict, have one of the giant gods intervene (the All-Father Annam for real conflict, the fickle and manipulative cloud giant god Memnor if you want the party to be manipulated)
2. Fiendish Intervention. Archdevils and demon lords (the ones that aren't completely off the rails coco for Volo puffs) are always keeping an eye on the material plane. One of them could be interested in using the characters for their own nefarious deeds.
3. Feyish intervention. Fey do whatever they feel like.
4. If all else fails, reboot it. The characters awake on the shores of the river Styx. Their Merrenoloth ferryman is dead, and they now need a way out of Hades.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"What do you mean I get disadvantage on persuasion?"
I don't know, Sneet, maybe because your argument is "Submit and become our pet"?
I did speak with everyone. A couple of the owners of the PC's that died felt a little jaded and got a little upset. Coupled with the fact that I did get over zealous with the monster I gave them the option of rolling new characters, keeping their current characters, or tell me to pound sound and quite. They opted for keeping their new characters.
I am leaning towards having one of the main protagonist of the story putting them into a "dream" sequence/scenario to try and warn the party of things to come if they keep along the path they currently on. May even give them motivation to take the path to kill said protagonist instead of taking the easy way out.
I am leaning towards having one of the main protagonist of the story putting them into a "dream" sequence/scenario to try and warn the party of things to come if they keep along the path they currently on. May even give them motivation to take the path to kill said protagonist instead of taking the easy way out.
Just remember that your role is not to solve the situation for the Players - in fact to do so cheats them out of their fun.
IMHO - your role is to set up fair and achievable problems for the Players, give them avenues by which they can obtain resources they'll need, means by which they can gain access to information they need, and fairly and plausibly adjudicate their actions.
Whether or not they opt to adopt solving the problems as goals, make an effort to find those resources, and have the forethought to gather the required intelligence, is on them.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Sometimes people get confused on what it means to be the dungeon master. It does not make you God, it makes the storyteller. The story unfolds through the characters. Let the characters guide how it goes. Sometimes TPK happen sometimes people get confused on what it means to be the dungeon master. It does not make you God, it makes you a storyteller. The story unfolds through the characters. Let the characters guide how it goes. Sometimes the dragon wins...
What you need get to sorted out is how do you move forward from here? Do the brothers and family members of the fallen come back and kill the monster; do you allow the characters to revive some now; does it just happen to a band of high level clerics who happened to be nearby you can go to; or do you just scrap it off as a dream and pretend it was it was Divine Intervention?
you have a lot of good advice here, but it’s your game. You need to make it worth the players time to want to be in your world.
if you've naffed up and over matched them,(the best way is to fudge a few rolls and not kill them in the first place) once that opportunity has passed then it's your responsibility to provide a route back for any character who died and who's player wants to continue playing that character. it'd D&D death should always be an option but equally resurrection should also always be an option. if they can afford to pay for it then simply get them to go to the local temple and bring them back. if they can't afford to pay for it, then they're going to be stuck in servitude to whichever organisation brings them back, until they have paid off the debt you're going to need some form of transport for the corpses to get them to a temple, cart, sled, tied over the back of a horse or even reanimated via animate dead scroll and walk back if you want a laugh, particularly entertaining if the temple they are going to is warded against undead as the zombie can't then get inside to be brought back to life, settlement guards can become twitchy about people riding into town accompanied by a hoard of undead too, not to mention the reputational damage. regardless you now have an opportunity for things that they will laugh about in years to come. even if they are contemplating hiring assasins to come for you at the moment
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All plans turn into, run into the room waving a sword and see what happens from there, once the first die gets rolled
I did speak with everyone. A couple of the owners of the PC's that died felt a little jaded and got a little upset. Coupled with the fact that I did get over zealous with the monster I gave them the option of rolling new characters, keeping their current characters, or tell me to pound sound and quite. They opted for keeping their new characters.
I am leaning towards having one of the main protagonist of the story putting them into a "dream" sequence/scenario to try and warn the party of things to come if they keep along the path they currently on. May even give them motivation to take the path to kill said protagonist instead of taking the easy way out.
It is entirely acceptable to just say "Whoa. Did not expect you all to die. So...<wavy hands> you didn't all die" and retcon the end of the encounter. The same sort of thing will happen when someone gets burned to a crisp by a fireball, the rest of the party reacts and keeps playing for 5 more rounds, and then the dead person says "Wait! I have that Ring of Fire Resistance!" And so you retcon the death, they got knocked out but they are back on their feet.
Only the most overly type-A of players will have a problem with that sort of thing happening sometimes.
if you've naffed up and over matched them,(the best way is to fudge a few rolls and not kill them in the first place) once that opportunity has passed then it's your responsibility to provide a route back for any character who died and who's player wants to continue playing that character. it'd D&D death should always be an option but equally resurrection should also always be an option. if they can afford to pay for it then simply get them to go to the local temple and bring them back. if they can't afford to pay for it, then they're going to be stuck in servitude to whichever organisation brings them back, until they have paid off the debt you're going to need some form of transport for the corpses to get them to a temple, cart, sled, tied over the back of a horse or even reanimated via animate dead scroll and walk back if you want a laugh, particularly entertaining if the temple they are going to is warded against undead as the zombie can't then get inside to be brought back to life, settlement guards can become twitchy about people riding into town accompanied by a hoard of undead too, not to mention the reputational damage. regardless you now have an opportunity for things that they will laugh about in years to come. even if they are contemplating hiring assasins to come for you at the moment
This is good advice. You're DM screen is a powerful tool. I usually cut back the HP pool of very difficult encounters if my players are performing well but luck isn't on their side. Make it hurt, but make it winnable. I will similarly make HP pools deeper on select creatures if the players are having too easy of a time ( though feeling like you steam rolled an encounter is nice now and then ).
Also this may serve as a lesson to the players that 'discretion is the greater form of valor' when facing a very powerful foe.
A situation you may be able to present is that the party actually wake in the creatures lair / food pile / nest. Give them a few hp each and a chance to escape. Maybe the lair is in an abandoned shrine of Illmater and the shrines power has given them the strength to soldier though their suffering. Or maybe the god Torm has granted them one last chance to do their duty.
As you're eyes open they catch a warm glowing light recede from view, and you hear the sound of shattering marble somewhere nearby.
You find yourselves, beaten, bruised and yet somehow still alive.. As you scan the area you spot a shattered statue of Torm glowing faintly in the darkness, The head lies askew on the ground, it's piercing eyes seems to be staring right at you. Scattered all around the statue you see the remains of creatures in various states of decay.
This is a great opportunity for a little escape side-quest. Maybe there are some nice Items hidden amongst the corpses. You may be able to turn the annoyed players into suprised happy ones ;)
Hey fellow DM's
Reaching to get a little advise on a situation that arise that was partially my fault and partially the dice god's fault.
Background: Campaign is Storm King's Thunder and have a party of 6. Entire campaign was humping right along just fine. DM (me) got a new miniature for a monster that was a fairly high CR but thought party could handle it. Whelp, I was wrong and 4 out of the 6 players ended up dying.
So being the nice DM that I am, am trying to come up with a way to bring the players back and save some face. Wanted to see if any other DM's might have run into a similar situation and how did you as the DM handled it.
TL:DR - Over zealous DM and bad rolls killed players. DM feels bad due to the high CR of the monster. Saving face by bringing players back but need Ideas.
First, what is a partial total party kill? If a member(s) of the party survived it is not a TPK.
My players have been pretty hard to kill in the module I ran, and they don't ask me to DM that often, so I haven't gotten to try often.
A nearby temple could offer their services (or a druid circle if you want to mix things up). Or an NPC could tell them about a ritual to revive the dead (but that usually has a session or two with dead PCs not participating). Have you asked the players if they want revived as opposed to rolling new characters?
Couple of thoughts:
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Kill me once, shame on you. Kill me twice, shame on me.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
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InsiderHave you chatted with your players about it yet?
Killing characters sucks for sure, but it's not always a bad thing or something the players are unhappy with. Some of your players might be satisfied with the epic death of fighting against this creature and excited about rolling up a new character. Others might want the chance for their character to come back. Once you know what they want you can work with them to make that happen in a way that is satisfying to the group and your story.
As a DM my primary focus is on my players having fun, and every one of my players find that fun in different ways. My first suggestion is to talk with your players and see what they want before you make any plans. And good luck!
Find me on Twitter: @OboeLauren
1. Divine Intervention. Many gods would have interest in seeing the characters win. For some interesting conflict, have one of the giant gods intervene (the All-Father Annam for real conflict, the fickle and manipulative cloud giant god Memnor if you want the party to be manipulated)
2. Fiendish Intervention. Archdevils and demon lords (the ones that aren't completely off the rails coco for Volo puffs) are always keeping an eye on the material plane. One of them could be interested in using the characters for their own nefarious deeds.
3. Feyish intervention. Fey do whatever they feel like.
4. If all else fails, reboot it. The characters awake on the shores of the river Styx. Their Merrenoloth ferryman is dead, and they now need a way out of Hades.
"What do you mean I get disadvantage on persuasion?"
I don't know, Sneet, maybe because your argument is "Submit and become our pet"?
-Actual conversation in a game.
I did speak with everyone. A couple of the owners of the PC's that died felt a little jaded and got a little upset. Coupled with the fact that I did get over zealous with the monster I gave them the option of rolling new characters, keeping their current characters, or tell me to pound sound and quite. They opted for keeping their new characters.
I am leaning towards having one of the main protagonist of the story putting them into a "dream" sequence/scenario to try and warn the party of things to come if they keep along the path they currently on. May even give them motivation to take the path to kill said protagonist instead of taking the easy way out.
Just remember that your role is not to solve the situation for the Players - in fact to do so cheats them out of their fun.
IMHO - your role is to set up fair and achievable problems for the Players, give them avenues by which they can obtain resources they'll need, means by which they can gain access to information they need, and fairly and plausibly adjudicate their actions.
Whether or not they opt to adopt solving the problems as goals, make an effort to find those resources, and have the forethought to gather the required intelligence, is on them.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Sometimes people get confused on what it means to be the dungeon master. It does not make you God, it makes the storyteller. The story unfolds through the characters. Let the characters guide how it goes. Sometimes TPK happen sometimes people get confused on what it means to be the dungeon master. It does not make you God, it makes you a storyteller. The story unfolds through the characters. Let the characters guide how it goes. Sometimes the dragon wins...
What you need get to sorted out is how do you move forward from here? Do the brothers and family members of the fallen come back and kill the monster; do you allow the characters to revive some now; does it just happen to a band of high level clerics who happened to be nearby you can go to; or do you just scrap it off as a dream and pretend it was it was Divine Intervention?
you have a lot of good advice here, but it’s your game. You need to make it worth the players time to want to be in your world.
Remember, it is ROLE playing not ROLL playing
if you've naffed up and over matched them,(the best way is to fudge a few rolls and not kill them in the first place) once that opportunity has passed then it's your responsibility to provide a route back for any character who died and who's player wants to continue playing that character.
it'd D&D death should always be an option but equally resurrection should also always be an option.
if they can afford to pay for it then simply get them to go to the local temple and bring them back.
if they can't afford to pay for it, then they're going to be stuck in servitude to whichever organisation brings them back, until they have paid off the debt
you're going to need some form of transport for the corpses to get them to a temple, cart, sled, tied over the back of a horse or even reanimated via animate dead scroll and walk back if you want a laugh, particularly entertaining if the temple they are going to is warded against undead as the zombie can't then get inside to be brought back to life, settlement guards can become twitchy about people riding into town accompanied by a hoard of undead too, not to mention the reputational damage.
regardless you now have an opportunity for things that they will laugh about in years to come. even if they are contemplating hiring assasins to come for you at the moment
All plans turn into, run into the room waving a sword and see what happens from there, once the first die gets rolled
It is entirely acceptable to just say "Whoa. Did not expect you all to die. So...<wavy hands> you didn't all die" and retcon the end of the encounter. The same sort of thing will happen when someone gets burned to a crisp by a fireball, the rest of the party reacts and keeps playing for 5 more rounds, and then the dead person says "Wait! I have that Ring of Fire Resistance!" And so you retcon the death, they got knocked out but they are back on their feet.
Only the most overly type-A of players will have a problem with that sort of thing happening sometimes.
Looking for new subclasses, spells, magic items, feats, and races? Opinions welcome :)
You have lots of options.
This is good advice. You're DM screen is a powerful tool. I usually cut back the HP pool of very difficult encounters if my players are performing well but luck isn't on their side. Make it hurt, but make it winnable. I will similarly make HP pools deeper on select creatures if the players are having too easy of a time ( though feeling like you steam rolled an encounter is nice now and then ).
Also this may serve as a lesson to the players that 'discretion is the greater form of valor' when facing a very powerful foe.
A situation you may be able to present is that the party actually wake in the creatures lair / food pile / nest. Give them a few hp each and a chance to escape. Maybe the lair is in an abandoned shrine of Illmater and the shrines power has given them the strength to soldier though their suffering. Or maybe the god Torm has granted them one last chance to do their duty.
This is a great opportunity for a little escape side-quest. Maybe there are some nice Items hidden amongst the corpses. You may be able to turn the annoyed players into suprised happy ones ;)
Thanks everyone for the advice and tips!! I have written, what I think, is a pretty good come back for the situation.