Long story short, I am running the players through a "search, destroy, recover" adventure. The party was to infiltrate a giant stronghold, and stop the giants from raiding villages and tradeways - negotiate, kill, ??? - just stop the raiding. The party was hired as mercs, as the kingdom is actually at war on another front, so the giants took advantage of the situation. As I know the players (they are usually careful about things, as they have grown accustomed to how I DM over the years), and fully expected them to take the "kill 'em" approach, but be strategic about it.
I place areas of safety and/or infiltration for the players, so they don't get railroaded into direct confrontation with overwhelming numbers... divide and conquer, right?
The stronghold/fort is akin to a viking longhouse, but walled, going from cliff-side (down into a crevice) on one side of the pass, to the cliff-side (upwards) on the other, with a main gate. I created an offal pit in the longhouse, with a "sewer cave" leading to an opening on the crevice side. The giants would throw their refuse and waste in the offal pit, and have the slaves walk it out and dump it... a nice way in for the party to sneak about, right? I'd also like to emphasize the giants have slaves...
Here's the situation... the party goes into the "sewer", and two orc slaves (actually four, but there was a distance between the two groups) come upon the party. I explicitly state that the orc are wearing neck collars, rags, and are half-starved... and state they are slaves. Two off the party members outright kill the slaves, the other two members of the party are aghast... and now the entire adventure - and campaign - has become exceedingly more difficult. I never expected the party to murder the slaves. The expectation was to have the party cultivate the slaves into an uprising, as the slaves were not just orcs, but other humanoids (orcs, hobgoblins, humans, dwarves, elves... the smaller races 1/2lings, gnomes, goblins, don't make good slaves because of their size and strength, so they are just food). So know the derailment begins... I have the other slaves run back to the offal pit, slam down the gate, bar it, and warn the giants. When it comes to slave mentality, alive being a slave is better than dead, right? Their captors, while cruel, don't murder them wontonly, and while you are alive there is always a chance for escape...
So now, instead of the party being able to sneak in, get help from slaves by having them scout areas or even assist in an uprising, the giants are fully aware of an intrusion. While party struggles getting through the gate, a group of giants, are topside and go to the sewer cave entrance and collapse it. Giants are at the top of the offal pit, pelting the party with stones as they squeeze through the gate... after fudging many rolls so there wasn't a TPK... the party manages to kill 4 giants, before having to retreat into the sewer, but then realized they are trapped... I then have the giants fill the offal pit with oil stuffed pigs and other various dead things to create firebombs, The giants have escape plans, and are not afraid to burn everything down, if it suits them...
So to cut the story short, I have the giants retreat instead of having to completely kill the party, thus ending the campaign.
My dilemma, how do I make the party have agency / pay for their actions? If there is no threat of death, because I don't want to end the campaign, what should I do?
Welcome to the forum! My response here is equally a bit long winded...
My first bit of advice, try a deus ex machina. If your setting has gods, bring one in as an avatar or a servant. The deity offers the characters a way out, in return the characters are going to need to complete another objective for this deity. To me, refusing this opportunity would tell me that the players actually want to die, because a god is trying to hand them an answer for messing up the past events. So what kind of mission could the deity have? Well, note that I didn't say what alignment the god is, could be an evil, neutral, or good entity it's up to you. Maybe this entity commands them to befriend the orc slaves if you want to continue on with that bit? maybe the deity punishes them for their wonton killing of the other two? just some ideas.
My second bit of advice, try not to set up plot points such as "the players are SUPPOSED to ally with the orcs and then raise a rebellion." I get that's a really cool idea, but you can save yourself from derailment by considering beforehand that it's quite possible these orcs would die before ever getting raise a rebellion. I mean, the slaves might've died anyway at the hands of the giants even if your players didn't outright kill them, yeah? Anyway, for now, I'd say put it behind you throw a deity in there to maybe save them, and hopefully your players catch the lifebuoy before they drown in an offal pit...
It's very reasonable for the players to die here. Have them get all knocked down, fade to black, and they awake as slaves themselves. Their equipment is stored away somewhere and they have to escape
Cue the Shawshank montage
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
The group could find a hidden passage in the sewer that allows them either escape or another route into the giant's stronghold.
The giants might explode their firebombs...
...and leave the party for dead, the part can then laboriously dig themselves out, lick their wounds, and decide what to do next.
...or the explosion knocks out the party, they awaken as slaves of the giants, hated and feared by the other slaves they have to make allies and or escape.
Leave them trapped for a few days. As they begin to despair, they are dug out by whoever hired them or someone else - the giants took revenge on nearby villagers/townsfolk and the party is in disgrace unless they can find a way to make things right.
Or just wait for the party to come up with their own ideas of how to deal with their situation. They will think of things to try that you won't. Allow one of their ideas to work
Depending on what the giants do next, lasting consequences for the party could include loss of reputation, being blamed for reprisals on the locals by the giants, or loss of whatever reward they were promised. Perhaps they have to go an another quest in order to redeem themselves.
You could do a scene out of the hobbit where your players get caught and put on spits over a fire, but then your giants start to squabble about how to season them and an opportunity to escape presents itself. Maybe a slave (NPC) sees a new reason to help your party then.
Another option that could give a bit of a penalty for their actions would be to have the younger sibling of one of the slaves they killed escape and try to get revenge. You could give him advantage, like creep up when the party is sleeping, or be a high level, beast taiming slave that sets a pack of wolves on them. Exc. Show them how they killed someone who was innocent in the situation and caused another innocent to go evil. Maybe this can spark some ideas!
I like the idea of a god saving them but with a twist. The god is a trickster god and has taken notice of the parties particular position and parlays with them as a means of entertaining 'itself'. The Trickster god then rewinds time locally and has the events play out again, but changes things so that the party will fail again, and again, and again. This is their payment for having so quickly dispatched of the slaves. Finally they figure out *insert x riddle here* that allows them to escape the tricksters game and continue on with the mission as you had designed it.
Inasmuch as I lack sympathy (but not understanding) for your falling into the trap of "the PCs are supposed to do X" and then do the opposite of X, I mostly agree with some of the suggestions above, as well as ideas on consequences and such. However, I would first see if the group has any ideas for getting themselves out of this ... er ... mess ... themselves. For all you know, they've been thinking of escape plans for the whole week. In that case, I'd just go along with it and pretend it was my idea the whole time.
e.g. "Does the sewer have any weak points or points of drainage other than the main exit?" "make a roll ...." "20" "You struggle in the darkness, but you hear the sound of mice dashing in and out of a hole in the sewer wall." "I grab my maul ..." etc.
Well I am seeing this thread long after it was posted but feel the need to chime in. I am currently running a party of six players and one of the players really suffers from murder hobo syndrome. I like the OP have had NPC's that were supposed to "help" the party get axed because this one player is just too quick to kill. He is playing a Tiefling Rogue btw and supposed to be of good alignment but that is another thread.
What I have opted for and would have done in the case of the party above is, they suffer the consequences. Instead of the fire bomb pigs if you want to keep the campaign going have the giants use some sort of knock out gas and then the slaves are sent in to recover the "prisoners." After all the giants would like to know how the characters managed to enter their lair and who sent them. After that the players are stripped of ALL their equipment and sent to be slaves or into the fighting pits. Perhaps then they can find sympathetic slaves and can keep your campaign going.
With my current group the one player who is too quick with a knife has costed the rest of the group vital information and aid. Which is making things more difficult for the party and they are gaining a reputation where encounters with otherwise NPC's that would have aided the party now will not. Just be flexible but make bad actions have serious consequences.
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Hi, new to forum and just looking for advice...
Long story short, I am running the players through a "search, destroy, recover" adventure. The party was to infiltrate a giant stronghold, and stop the giants from raiding villages and tradeways - negotiate, kill, ??? - just stop the raiding. The party was hired as mercs, as the kingdom is actually at war on another front, so the giants took advantage of the situation. As I know the players (they are usually careful about things, as they have grown accustomed to how I DM over the years), and fully expected them to take the "kill 'em" approach, but be strategic about it.
I place areas of safety and/or infiltration for the players, so they don't get railroaded into direct confrontation with overwhelming numbers... divide and conquer, right?
The stronghold/fort is akin to a viking longhouse, but walled, going from cliff-side (down into a crevice) on one side of the pass, to the cliff-side (upwards) on the other, with a main gate. I created an offal pit in the longhouse, with a "sewer cave" leading to an opening on the crevice side. The giants would throw their refuse and waste in the offal pit, and have the slaves walk it out and dump it... a nice way in for the party to sneak about, right? I'd also like to emphasize the giants have slaves...
Here's the situation... the party goes into the "sewer", and two orc slaves (actually four, but there was a distance between the two groups) come upon the party. I explicitly state that the orc are wearing neck collars, rags, and are half-starved... and state they are slaves. Two off the party members outright kill the slaves, the other two members of the party are aghast... and now the entire adventure - and campaign - has become exceedingly more difficult. I never expected the party to murder the slaves. The expectation was to have the party cultivate the slaves into an uprising, as the slaves were not just orcs, but other humanoids (orcs, hobgoblins, humans, dwarves, elves... the smaller races 1/2lings, gnomes, goblins, don't make good slaves because of their size and strength, so they are just food). So know the derailment begins... I have the other slaves run back to the offal pit, slam down the gate, bar it, and warn the giants. When it comes to slave mentality, alive being a slave is better than dead, right? Their captors, while cruel, don't murder them wontonly, and while you are alive there is always a chance for escape...
So now, instead of the party being able to sneak in, get help from slaves by having them scout areas or even assist in an uprising, the giants are fully aware of an intrusion. While party struggles getting through the gate, a group of giants, are topside and go to the sewer cave entrance and collapse it. Giants are at the top of the offal pit, pelting the party with stones as they squeeze through the gate... after fudging many rolls so there wasn't a TPK... the party manages to kill 4 giants, before having to retreat into the sewer, but then realized they are trapped... I then have the giants fill the offal pit with oil stuffed pigs and other various dead things to create firebombs, The giants have escape plans, and are not afraid to burn everything down, if it suits them...
So to cut the story short, I have the giants retreat instead of having to completely kill the party, thus ending the campaign.
My dilemma, how do I make the party have agency / pay for their actions? If there is no threat of death, because I don't want to end the campaign, what should I do?
Thanks for reading this long winded post.
Welcome to the forum! My response here is equally a bit long winded...
My first bit of advice, try a deus ex machina. If your setting has gods, bring one in as an avatar or a servant. The deity offers the characters a way out, in return the characters are going to need to complete another objective for this deity. To me, refusing this opportunity would tell me that the players actually want to die, because a god is trying to hand them an answer for messing up the past events. So what kind of mission could the deity have? Well, note that I didn't say what alignment the god is, could be an evil, neutral, or good entity it's up to you. Maybe this entity commands them to befriend the orc slaves if you want to continue on with that bit? maybe the deity punishes them for their wonton killing of the other two? just some ideas.
My second bit of advice, try not to set up plot points such as "the players are SUPPOSED to ally with the orcs and then raise a rebellion." I get that's a really cool idea, but you can save yourself from derailment by considering beforehand that it's quite possible these orcs would die before ever getting raise a rebellion. I mean, the slaves might've died anyway at the hands of the giants even if your players didn't outright kill them, yeah? Anyway, for now, I'd say put it behind you throw a deity in there to maybe save them, and hopefully your players catch the lifebuoy before they drown in an offal pit...
Good luck!
It's very reasonable for the players to die here. Have them get all knocked down, fade to black, and they awake as slaves themselves. Their equipment is stored away somewhere and they have to escape
Cue the Shawshank montage
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Depending on what the giants do next, lasting consequences for the party could include loss of reputation, being blamed for reprisals on the locals by the giants, or loss of whatever reward they were promised. Perhaps they have to go an another quest in order to redeem themselves.
You could do a scene out of the hobbit where your players get caught and put on spits over a fire, but then your giants start to squabble about how to season them and an opportunity to escape presents itself. Maybe a slave (NPC) sees a new reason to help your party then.
Another option that could give a bit of a penalty for their actions would be to have the younger sibling of one of the slaves they killed escape and try to get revenge. You could give him advantage, like creep up when the party is sleeping, or be a high level, beast taiming slave that sets a pack of wolves on them. Exc. Show them how they killed someone who was innocent in the situation and caused another innocent to go evil. Maybe this can spark some ideas!
I would definitely go with the TPK + awake as slaves route.
I like the idea of a god saving them but with a twist. The god is a trickster god and has taken notice of the parties particular position and parlays with them as a means of entertaining 'itself'. The Trickster god then rewinds time locally and has the events play out again, but changes things so that the party will fail again, and again, and again. This is their payment for having so quickly dispatched of the slaves. Finally they figure out *insert x riddle here* that allows them to escape the tricksters game and continue on with the mission as you had designed it.
Evil, but in a fun way :D
Inasmuch as I lack sympathy (but not understanding) for your falling into the trap of "the PCs are supposed to do X" and then do the opposite of X, I mostly agree with some of the suggestions above, as well as ideas on consequences and such. However, I would first see if the group has any ideas for getting themselves out of this ... er ... mess ... themselves. For all you know, they've been thinking of escape plans for the whole week. In that case, I'd just go along with it and pretend it was my idea the whole time.
e.g. "Does the sewer have any weak points or points of drainage other than the main exit?"
"make a roll ...."
"20"
"You struggle in the darkness, but you hear the sound of mice dashing in and out of a hole in the sewer wall."
"I grab my maul ..." etc.
Well I am seeing this thread long after it was posted but feel the need to chime in. I am currently running a party of six players and one of the players really suffers from murder hobo syndrome. I like the OP have had NPC's that were supposed to "help" the party get axed because this one player is just too quick to kill. He is playing a Tiefling Rogue btw and supposed to be of good alignment but that is another thread.
What I have opted for and would have done in the case of the party above is, they suffer the consequences. Instead of the fire bomb pigs if you want to keep the campaign going have the giants use some sort of knock out gas and then the slaves are sent in to recover the "prisoners." After all the giants would like to know how the characters managed to enter their lair and who sent them. After that the players are stripped of ALL their equipment and sent to be slaves or into the fighting pits. Perhaps then they can find sympathetic slaves and can keep your campaign going.
With my current group the one player who is too quick with a knife has costed the rest of the group vital information and aid. Which is making things more difficult for the party and they are gaining a reputation where encounters with otherwise NPC's that would have aided the party now will not. Just be flexible but make bad actions have serious consequences.