To start off, I only really got into DMing because I'm a sucker for worldbuilding. All of the campaigns that I've run thus far have been homebrew, with me drawing custom maps and coming up with worlds that fit into the D&D structure as much as possible. My homebrew collection is full of unshared concepts for weapons, magical items, and even a race and subclass that I intend on introducing into my current campaign.
My current campaign, set in an industrialized island nation focused on uncovering a long-forgotten kingdom under the water, is one such campaign. I've put a lot of hours into crafting it, making an interesting setting for them to learn about, and throwing in a few wildcards to let them have a little fun. Before this, it was a campaign set in a world at war over newly uncovered artifacts and fertile land rights. While I cared about this one less, I also put a lot of thought into how to make things flow naturally. I've gravitated so hard toward homebrew worlds because I feel like creating the world in my mind helps me come up with ways that things in that world might interact, instead of considering how other people probably intended them to interact. Sorry if that sounds convoluted, it does to me too.
The issue here is that I feel like I'm having trouble keeping my party engaged. Sometimes I feel like I'm railroading them because they only follow the story beats that I drop, and other times I feel like I'm not giving them enough threads to follow leading them to stand around in a town doing nothing for a while. I've read the entire DMG recently, and I'm hoping to fix these issues in our next session using what I've learned. However, I feel that if I end up screwing it up again they'll lose interest in my campaigns, which disappoints me because when I'm making these campaigns
However, I feel like some of the issues are is in the party itself. We all only started playing D&D because one friend in our group of 5 people was already a big D&D guy and an experienced DM. We played with him DMing first, and I feel like he does a great job in keeping us engaged.
Well, me at least.
When the experienced dude is the DM, it goes like this: I'm super interested in everything going on, another guy is deep into RP and is loving every moment, and the other two are just kinda along for the ride. One is almost always silent unless the DM asks him something, and the other gives off the vibe that she doesn't like D&D, yet keeps agreeing to future campaigns anyway. When I'm DMing, it's the same dynamic, except the experienced dude is super interested in the worlds that I build, while also super critical of my DM methods while not really giving me ways to improve.
Maybe it's the group then, and that I would probably be able to run a campaign better if I had a full party of people who were interested?
Well, maybe. I would love to find another campaign, but WotC hasn't helped a lot considering they don't have a lot of groups near me, and I've gotten no hits on Reddit. I'm still new to these forums and might try them next, although I'm not sure what goes and what doesn't on these forums. (And I'm half expecting this thread to get deleted because it's overdone or posted in the wrong place, haha.)
So, here I am, asking for advice. Should I search for another group and see if my dynamic works better with them, or focus on improving myself with the people that I have? Because if things continue going as they are, then I'm probably gonna stop DMing... probably just for the time being.
I set up a poll, so feel free to weigh in, or reply with your thoughts.
When I ask what I can do to improve, the experienced DM can never give me a straight answer, the RP guy says I'm fine, and the other two don't seem to care.
It sounds like you have players uninterested in D&D rather than you as a DM. If you are in need of searching for others, we have a full board here of like-minded players. Running games online via Discord or Skype is also a wonderful option.
As for your current party, I would work on offering more choices during these excursions. They're following the clues you drop them, which is good, but bring them into scenarios where they have to make choices - not obvious ones like killing the bad guy or sparing their life, etc, but ones that will help promote RP and discussion. "The party must now choose to carry out the accompanying townguards' order of slaying the Orc men, women, and children or standing up for this peaceful sub-tribe of Orc Druids who promote spiritualistic non-violence."
By having to get into character a bit more or have a say in the story, they may become more interested in the progression (as their choices define the world around them).
"The party must now choose to carry out the accompanying townguards' order of slaying the Orc men, women, and children or standing up for this peaceful sub-tribe of Orc Druids who promote spiritualistic non-violence."
Haha, I actually had something like that set up for a town in the campaign's future.
Thank you for your input. Tomorrow when I have time, I'll be sure to look at that other forum.
From what I have read, it seems like your group is engaged when the other person dm’s but not when you do it. This could be due to a simple issue that took me two campaigns failing hard to solve. Plot hooks! Yeah, maybe one of your players would rather be playing Skyrim for the umpteenth time, but when you have them enter the mines south of the city in search of adamantine to coat their weapon and they find a letter that is a bit messed up near the back of it with writing on it detailing that their brother is the last hope of saving the family business otherwise a rival company is going to take over and cause your parents hell, covered in blood, they should pay at least a bit of attention. If a hook that involved the torture and murder of their family doesn’t get them into the game, there is no hope. If the latter is the case, have them step on a staircase of double speed. Have it be 28 steps exactly. Their speed will be faster than light (if their speed is 30) and destroy the world. Kill them and everyone else in the world and restart with new players.
I voted something else. The issue I see from your post is that you are a lorecrafter. You wax on about how you enjoy creating intricate worlds for the PCs to inhabit. This issue I see is that honestly, no one really cares about the lore. This is no ones fault, but lorecrafting is better for writing a novel than running Dungeons and Dragons (or any other role-playing game). Players come in all kinds of different types, Matt Colville's "Sandbox versus the Railroad" video on Youtube talks about several of these. The players of Legolas and Gimli are just happy murderhobos along for the ride, Aragorn is 100% in deep with the lore and wants to take advantage of it, best not to think of the wangrod that plays Boromir.
Anyway, talk to the players, figure out what they would like to do in a game. This is called a Session Zero. Jointly figure out the rough trajectory of the game, for instance if no one likes social games, you as a DM avoid them. Only after taking the temperature of the room and figuring out what types of adventures interest the group do you start your game. Reign in your love of intricate worlds. It seems like you do way too much of it. 100s of places, npcs, items, classes, and races just cluttering up your hard drive do no one any good. Just start small, stay local, and only prepare what the party is likely to interact with. Seriously. Only prepare what you need. There is a book on Amazon called "The Way of the Lazy Dungeon Master by Sly Flourish 2ed". I highly recommend purchasing this product, reading it, and following his advice. You will be saner, and your gaming will be better.
I have to agree with hawksmoor. There’s a big difference between a setting and a plot. When most people, for example, read a book, they keep reading because they want to know what happens next, not because they are waiting for the next description of a cool fantasy city on floating islands.
Setting is important, and can help inform the direction the story goes, but the story should be paramount. You need an interesting villain or three, and a reason for the characters to want to defeat said villain. Along the way, the players will love getting some cool custom magic items and meeting races that aren’t in the PHB, but the story is what will keep them coming back.
It seems like you do way too much of it. 100s of places, npcs, items, classes, and races just cluttering up your hard drive do no one any good. Just start small, stay local, and only prepare what the party is likely to interact with. Seriously. Only prepare what you need.
I don't do that much. I love creating the world, the setting, the intricacies of the world, but when it comes to the day-to-day interactions, most of it I make up on the spot. I set up the world so intricately so I have an infallible (or so I thought) framework to fit things in, so it makes sense. My campaign setup folders have a few essential NPCs for the start of the campaign, a few items essential to the story so I don't have to worry about it later, and other things.
But, more story, less setting. Funny, I thought describing the setting was something I was bad at, haha.
Honestly, you said the dynamic is mostly the same whether you're running the game or the more experienced DM is. That's just how your party rolls. The difference is that the more experienced DM is critical of your style. It may just be that you have different styles, and yours isn't necessarily "wrong", it's just different than theirs.
[Side note - I'm a musician. Try asking five professional musicians how a specific piece of music is "supposed to go". You'll get at least seven different answers. It's the same kind of thing.]
I'd say, try to seek out other styles of DMing - incorporate what you like, drop what you don't. Pay attention to how they describe things, when they ask for rolls, when they don't, etc. It's pretty easy to find sessions online rune by Chris Perkins, Matt Mercer, Matt Colville, Griffin McElroy, you name it.
I would just like to point out that maybe as a newbie DM with a couple newbie players, you should start with a traditional D&D campaign. Play something by the book or lightly modified. Once everyone is comfortable and enjoying the sessions, transition into more exotic content.
My personal experience is that heavy homebrew works best wih a seasoned DM and players that can adapt to different settings and rule mechanics. This takes some experience on both parties.
It's unfortunate that the other GM won't give you solid pointers. From what you've said some are engaged regardless of GM and others aren't. No big deal.
Don't be afraid to throw a printed module onto your island (Ghosts of Salt Marsh?) or just a part of it. Look up GM tips. Overall it seems you're doing OK.
As someone who was frustrated for a large part of my early DMing, it wasn’t until I had played with a bunch of different people in a bunch of different games and styles, that I realized that I was not a bad DM and I did not have bad Players, we just happened to be trying to play very different games and did not do well in communicating that to each other. Here I am Many many years later I’m still doing this thing and loving it. Here is some things to think about.
Remember it’s a game and your there to have fun (yes that includes the DM).
Pay attention to what your players get excited by. Ask them about their favorite moments (even if it’s not your campaign) and use that information to tailor your game to your players. The more fun they are having the more fun you will too.
If the content they want is not fun for you to deliver that’s ok!!! You may just need different players who better mesh with your DMing style.
As long as you have at least one player in your group driving the party to action, it’s ok if not everyone wants the spotlight. Some players are “audience members” and that’s ok too. They have fun by watching the story unfold and the moments that are created. Let them sit back and enjoy the ride. As long as they are paying attention and not a distraction your doing fine. If you have players who are distracting/on their phone whatever just ask them to leave the table to do that sort of thing and come back when they’re done/ready.
It’s should never be about how good of a DM you are or how experienced your players are, as long as you are all there to have fun and willing to talk about how to make that happen it will work it’s self out.
While it’s ok to talk about how to do better don’t fall into the trap of always putting yourself down. If your not confident in your decisions your players won’t be either. Chances are your players have no idea where (you think) you messed up. On the other hand If they are being openly hostile, critical or harsh it’s worth asking if they are having fun and if it would just be better for them to find a different game.
Instead of asking how can I do better or what did I do wrong, ask them “what was your favorite thing this session?”, “was there anything you would prefer not to run into again?” Think of it like a highlight reel instead of a critical tear down analysis.
To start off, I only really got into DMing because I'm a sucker for worldbuilding. All of the campaigns that I've run thus far have been homebrew, with me drawing custom maps and coming up with worlds that fit into the D&D structure as much as possible. My homebrew collection is full of unshared concepts for weapons, magical items, and even a race and subclass that I intend on introducing into my current campaign.
My current campaign, set in an industrialized island nation focused on uncovering a long-forgotten kingdom under the water, is one such campaign. I've put a lot of hours into crafting it, making an interesting setting for them to learn about, and throwing in a few wildcards to let them have a little fun. Before this, it was a campaign set in a world at war over newly uncovered artifacts and fertile land rights. While I cared about this one less, I also put a lot of thought into how to make things flow naturally. I've gravitated so hard toward homebrew worlds because I feel like creating the world in my mind helps me come up with ways that things in that world might interact, instead of considering how other people probably intended them to interact. Sorry if that sounds convoluted, it does to me too.
The issue here is that I feel like I'm having trouble keeping my party engaged. Sometimes I feel like I'm railroading them because they only follow the story beats that I drop, and other times I feel like I'm not giving them enough threads to follow leading them to stand around in a town doing nothing for a while. I've read the entire DMG recently, and I'm hoping to fix these issues in our next session using what I've learned. However, I feel that if I end up screwing it up again they'll lose interest in my campaigns, which disappoints me because when I'm making these campaigns
However, I feel like some of the issues are is in the party itself. We all only started playing D&D because one friend in our group of 5 people was already a big D&D guy and an experienced DM. We played with him DMing first, and I feel like he does a great job in keeping us engaged.
Well, me at least.
When the experienced dude is the DM, it goes like this: I'm super interested in everything going on, another guy is deep into RP and is loving every moment, and the other two are just kinda along for the ride. One is almost always silent unless the DM asks him something, and the other gives off the vibe that she doesn't like D&D, yet keeps agreeing to future campaigns anyway. When I'm DMing, it's the same dynamic, except the experienced dude is super interested in the worlds that I build, while also super critical of my DM methods while not really giving me ways to improve.
Maybe it's the group then, and that I would probably be able to run a campaign better if I had a full party of people who were interested?
Well, maybe. I would love to find another campaign, but WotC hasn't helped a lot considering they don't have a lot of groups near me, and I've gotten no hits on Reddit. I'm still new to these forums and might try them next, although I'm not sure what goes and what doesn't on these forums. (And I'm half expecting this thread to get deleted because it's overdone or posted in the wrong place, haha.)
So, here I am, asking for advice. Should I search for another group and see if my dynamic works better with them, or focus on improving myself with the people that I have? Because if things continue going as they are, then I'm probably gonna stop DMing... probably just for the time being.
I set up a poll, so feel free to weigh in, or reply with your thoughts.
Have you asked your group?
When I ask what I can do to improve, the experienced DM can never give me a straight answer, the RP guy says I'm fine, and the other two don't seem to care.
It sounds like you have players uninterested in D&D rather than you as a DM. If you are in need of searching for others, we have a full board here of like-minded players. Running games online via Discord or Skype is also a wonderful option.
As for your current party, I would work on offering more choices during these excursions. They're following the clues you drop them, which is good, but bring them into scenarios where they have to make choices - not obvious ones like killing the bad guy or sparing their life, etc, but ones that will help promote RP and discussion. "The party must now choose to carry out the accompanying townguards' order of slaying the Orc men, women, and children or standing up for this peaceful sub-tribe of Orc Druids who promote spiritualistic non-violence."
By having to get into character a bit more or have a say in the story, they may become more interested in the progression (as their choices define the world around them).
Haha, I actually had something like that set up for a town in the campaign's future.
Thank you for your input. Tomorrow when I have time, I'll be sure to look at that other forum.
From what I have read, it seems like your group is engaged when the other person dm’s but not when you do it. This could be due to a simple issue that took me two campaigns failing hard to solve. Plot hooks! Yeah, maybe one of your players would rather be playing Skyrim for the umpteenth time, but when you have them enter the mines south of the city in search of adamantine to coat their weapon and they find a letter that is a bit messed up near the back of it with writing on it detailing that their brother is the last hope of saving the family business otherwise a rival company is going to take over and cause your parents hell, covered in blood, they should pay at least a bit of attention. If a hook that involved the torture and murder of their family doesn’t get them into the game, there is no hope. If the latter is the case, have them step on a staircase of double speed. Have it be 28 steps exactly. Their speed will be faster than light (if their speed is 30) and destroy the world. Kill them and everyone else in the world and restart with new players.
I voted something else. The issue I see from your post is that you are a lorecrafter. You wax on about how you enjoy creating intricate worlds for the PCs to inhabit. This issue I see is that honestly, no one really cares about the lore. This is no ones fault, but lorecrafting is better for writing a novel than running Dungeons and Dragons (or any other role-playing game). Players come in all kinds of different types, Matt Colville's "Sandbox versus the Railroad" video on Youtube talks about several of these. The players of Legolas and Gimli are just happy murderhobos along for the ride, Aragorn is 100% in deep with the lore and wants to take advantage of it, best not to think of the wangrod that plays Boromir.
Anyway, talk to the players, figure out what they would like to do in a game. This is called a Session Zero. Jointly figure out the rough trajectory of the game, for instance if no one likes social games, you as a DM avoid them. Only after taking the temperature of the room and figuring out what types of adventures interest the group do you start your game. Reign in your love of intricate worlds. It seems like you do way too much of it. 100s of places, npcs, items, classes, and races just cluttering up your hard drive do no one any good. Just start small, stay local, and only prepare what the party is likely to interact with. Seriously. Only prepare what you need. There is a book on Amazon called "The Way of the Lazy Dungeon Master by Sly Flourish 2ed". I highly recommend purchasing this product, reading it, and following his advice. You will be saner, and your gaming will be better.
I have to agree with hawksmoor. There’s a big difference between a setting and a plot. When most people, for example, read a book, they keep reading because they want to know what happens next, not because they are waiting for the next description of a cool fantasy city on floating islands.
Setting is important, and can help inform the direction the story goes, but the story should be paramount. You need an interesting villain or three, and a reason for the characters to want to defeat said villain. Along the way, the players will love getting some cool custom magic items and meeting races that aren’t in the PHB, but the story is what will keep them coming back.
I don't do that much. I love creating the world, the setting, the intricacies of the world, but when it comes to the day-to-day interactions, most of it I make up on the spot. I set up the world so intricately so I have an infallible (or so I thought) framework to fit things in, so it makes sense. My campaign setup folders have a few essential NPCs for the start of the campaign, a few items essential to the story so I don't have to worry about it later, and other things.
But, more story, less setting. Funny, I thought describing the setting was something I was bad at, haha.
Honestly, you said the dynamic is mostly the same whether you're running the game or the more experienced DM is. That's just how your party rolls. The difference is that the more experienced DM is critical of your style. It may just be that you have different styles, and yours isn't necessarily "wrong", it's just different than theirs.
[Side note - I'm a musician. Try asking five professional musicians how a specific piece of music is "supposed to go". You'll get at least seven different answers. It's the same kind of thing.]
I'd say, try to seek out other styles of DMing - incorporate what you like, drop what you don't. Pay attention to how they describe things, when they ask for rolls, when they don't, etc. It's pretty easy to find sessions online rune by Chris Perkins, Matt Mercer, Matt Colville, Griffin McElroy, you name it.
I would just like to point out that maybe as a newbie DM with a couple newbie players, you should start with a traditional D&D campaign. Play something by the book or lightly modified. Once everyone is comfortable and enjoying the sessions, transition into more exotic content.
My personal experience is that heavy homebrew works best wih a seasoned DM and players that can adapt to different settings and rule mechanics. This takes some experience on both parties.
It's unfortunate that the other GM won't give you solid pointers. From what you've said some are engaged regardless of GM and others aren't. No big deal.
Don't be afraid to throw a printed module onto your island (Ghosts of Salt Marsh?) or just a part of it. Look up GM tips. Overall it seems you're doing OK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTD2RZz6mlo&list=PLlUk42GiU2guNzWBzxn7hs8MaV7ELLCP_&index=3&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsHhMRkG9uA53ZkljEMdBAnOEoai83FLw
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
As someone who was frustrated for a large part of my early DMing, it wasn’t until I had played with a bunch of different people in a bunch of different games and styles, that I realized that I was not a bad DM and I did not have bad Players, we just happened to be trying to play very different games and did not do well in communicating that to each other. Here I am Many many years later I’m still doing this thing and loving it. Here is some things to think about.
Remember it’s a game and your there to have fun (yes that includes the DM).
Pay attention to what your players get excited by. Ask them about their favorite moments (even if it’s not your campaign) and use that information to tailor your game to your players. The more fun they are having the more fun you will too.
If the content they want is not fun for you to deliver that’s ok!!! You may just need different players who better mesh with your DMing style.
As long as you have at least one player in your group driving the party to action, it’s ok if not everyone wants the spotlight. Some players are “audience members” and that’s ok too. They have fun by watching the story unfold and the moments that are created. Let them sit back and enjoy the ride. As long as they are paying attention and not a distraction your doing fine. If you have players who are distracting/on their phone whatever just ask them to leave the table to do that sort of thing and come back when they’re done/ready.
It’s should never be about how good of a DM you are or how experienced your players are, as long as you are all there to have fun and willing to talk about how to make that happen it will work it’s self out.
While it’s ok to talk about how to do better don’t fall into the trap of always putting yourself down. If your not confident in your decisions your players won’t be either. Chances are your players have no idea where (you think) you messed up. On the other hand If they are being openly hostile, critical or harsh it’s worth asking if they are having fun and if it would just be better for them to find a different game.
Instead of asking how can I do better or what did I do wrong, ask them “what was your favorite thing this session?”, “was there anything you would prefer not to run into again?” Think of it like a highlight reel instead of a critical tear down analysis.