I want to create a group skill challenge but I've never done this before so I'd like to ask you for some advice. The situation: my players are traversing the north and need to pass a cold river which (i estimated) is about 45 feet wide. First they'll need to find a spot that is traversable without going under, swimming is not an option due to the heavy current. For these things I will use skill challenges as normal.
The group challenge I want to be moderate difficulty and simple (don't want it to eat up to much of time). However I do want them to experience: a. the difficulty of choosing to travel the wild in stead of the roads b. the harsh and cold environment as they travel further north (late autumn, around 2-5 degrees).
Once they find a passable location I want to use the group challenge rule, I think - simply put - everyone makes a skill check and if half or more succeed they're fine. Right? So with my 4 players, this means only 2 persons need to make the check. I want them to experience the cold and introduce a small chance of being dragged down the river's current.
I developped this idea: 6 checks, on 3 fails they are pulled down the river. The cold can give them an exhaustion point.
1. Dealing with the extreme cold water (freezing cold) - constitution ST DC12 (on a success they feel their muscles tense but are able to shake it off, if they fail they ALL take a level of exhaustion right away and it counts as a fail).
I know this means disadvantage on all future check, I will offer them to get back out of the river but this is the main thing I want to be dangerous. If they continue:
2. Dealing with potholes and slippery rocks - straight dexterity DC 12 skill check or they can use survival to avoid them (on a success they help each other to keep upright and continue on, on a fail on of them goes under and one of the PC's is just in time to grab hold of him, pulling him back in. This counts as a fail.
3. A strong current pulls their legs from underneath them - DC 10 athletics check (on a success they manage to keep upright as a group by clutching on to each other, if they fail there is an option that this is their 3rd fail in which they all clutch on to each other and are dragged down stream, if it's the 1st or 2nd another one of them goes under and is dragged downstream but one of the players is able to toss a rope and pull him back in.
4. A string of algae clouds the water in front of them - DC15 perception check (on a success they see the algae and stay clear of it and reach the shore, on a fail they get hit by challenge 5.)
5. The string of algae slithers and wraps around their feet and legs tripping and slipping them - DC12 dexterity ST to prevent from getting caught by this (on a success they are able to move past the algae without much trouble and reach the shore, if they fail they get entangled in the algae and are considered restrained.
6. To free themselves from the algae a DC10 strength check to get to shore.
You say 6 tests, but isn't it really 4? Test 5 and 6 are only options IF they fail on the fourth test, right?
I like your first three challenges best. The algae could be cool, but as written, it feels kind of ad hoc. I'll try to explain. You're telling the players they have to cross a river. The dangers are basically the cold and the water. Then, in the middle of the stream you add another difficulty - the algae. That could be cool, but I would have included that in the description of the challenge.
What I would have considered "adding" to your challenge are some real consequences. As I read you, the "only" consequences you've planned is A. an exhaustion point and B. the possibility of failing. Simply failing to cross the river doesn't work in the long term I guess, since you probably need the players to cross this river. The exhaustion point is also not necessarily a big deal if they can get rid of it by taking a long rest just after crossing the river.
This could also be an excellent opportunity to imply the harshest version of encumbrance rules. What do the players carry themselves, what do they pack on their horses? Instead of having a player get taken by the stream, have a horse disappear. Take some of their stuff! You could also give them cold damage each round. Should depend on their level, but if you're saying it will take 6 rounds to cross the river, give them enough damage that it could possibly be dangerous (Con save for half). Also excellent opportunity for using that resistance against cold spell.
A final advice - remember to give them a warning up front that crossing this river will be dangerous. Give them time to plan. Don't just let them start to cross, and then start hitting them with rolls. My experience is that an encounter like this often works best when the players "solve" it before they try to cross the river. If you manage to get them understand that this is really dangerous, they will plan and be careful. They will feel the danger, but let them have advantages for the planning they've done. That won't take away the danger, it will only make the players feel they are smart.
I will most definatly include the algae and the dangers to the initial description. The other consequences are good to add, they are on foot and don't carry a lot as they have a bag of holding. But I will add: things will get wet and might spoil in their inventory and the cold damage idea I also like as an extra consequence.
Once they find a passable location I want to use the group challenge rule, I think - simply put - everyone makes a skill check and if half or more succeed they're fine. Right? So with my 4 players, this means only 2 persons need to make the check. I want them to experience the cold and introduce a small chance of being dragged down the river's current.
The challenges as you describe them below don’t sound like group challenges. They sound like individual skill checks with individual penalties. Only required from everyone. If you want a group pass/fail, you take the averages of their checks and measure the average against the DC. Then apply the results to the situation. Group stealth checks determine whether the party is noticed. A group athletics check might determine a tug-of-war game. A group performance Or deception check might determine the effectiveness of a pretending to have a big argument so one player could sneak away unnoticed. Other than those, I can’t think of other skills where a group check makes sense. Rangers exist pretty much to do the survival checks so others without the skill don’t have to.
I developped this idea: 6 checks, on 3 fails they are pulled down the river. The cold can give them an exhaustion point.
1. Dealing with the extreme cold water (freezing cold) - constitution ST DC12 (on a success they feel their muscles tense but are able to shake it off, if they fail they ALL take a level of exhaustion right away and it counts as a fail).
Having anyone who fails a con save take a penalty is fair, and standard. They are trying to perform tasks in freezing water. I don’t think the penalty needs to be actual exhaustion, but it’s fine to award disadvantage or advantage on the next check based on the results of the most recent CON save.
I know this means disadvantage on all future check, I will offer them to get back out of the river but this is the main thing I want to be dangerous. If they continue:
2. Dealing with potholes and slippery rocks - straight dexterity DC 12 skill check or they can use survival to avoid them (on a success they help each other to keep upright and continue on, on a fail on of them goes under and one of the PC's is just in time to grab hold of him, pulling him back in. This counts as a fail.
I think this might be the weakest link in your chain of events. Typically, you see parties tie themselves together before doing things like this anyway, so there’s a safety net to being swept away. The terrain you describe sounds like a place where a DM might say “The ground is slick and uneven. Give me a DEX save, or you fall in and take 1d6 cold damage. At disadvantage if you failed the CON save“
3. A strong current pulls their legs from underneath them - DC 10 athletics check (on a success they manage to keep upright as a group by clutching on to each other, if they fail there is an option that this is their 3rd fail in which they all clutch on to each other and are dragged down stream, if it's the 1st or 2nd another one of them goes under and is dragged downstream but one of the players is able to toss a rope and pull him back in.
again, this is why most groups preemptively tie themselves off. I think a more straightforward way of dealing with it is, “You’ve regained your footing from slipping on the rocks. Everyone make a new CON save. Now, you’re out in the deepest channel of the river, and the current is strong here. Make an athletics check-at disadvantage if you failed the CON save-to avoid being swept off your feet.” Failing means going under and taking more cold damage. And if not tied off, swept 30ft away for each round they are unable to regain their footing, taking cold damage each round they’re under.
4. A string of algae clouds the water in front of them - DC15 perception check (on a success they see the algae and stay clear of it and reach the shore, on a fail they get hit by challenge 5.)
5. The string of algae slithers and wraps around their feet and legs tripping and slipping them - DC12 dexterity ST to prevent from getting caught by this (on a success they are able to move past the algae without much trouble and reach the shore, if they fail they get entangled in the algae and are considered restrained.
6. To free themselves from the algae a DC10 strength check to get to shore.
What do you think? Any ideas or flaws in this?
I think 3 rounds of con saves and skill checks is fair for one river crossing. Then if they failed 2 of their 3 con saves in the water, or took any cold damage from being pulled under, they take a point of exhaustion on exiting the river.
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Hey guys and girls,
I want to create a group skill challenge but I've never done this before so I'd like to ask you for some advice. The situation: my players are traversing the north and need to pass a cold river which (i estimated) is about 45 feet wide. First they'll need to find a spot that is traversable without going under, swimming is not an option due to the heavy current. For these things I will use skill challenges as normal.
The group challenge I want to be moderate difficulty and simple (don't want it to eat up to much of time). However I do want them to experience: a. the difficulty of choosing to travel the wild in stead of the roads b. the harsh and cold environment as they travel further north (late autumn, around 2-5 degrees).
Once they find a passable location I want to use the group challenge rule, I think - simply put - everyone makes a skill check and if half or more succeed they're fine. Right? So with my 4 players, this means only 2 persons need to make the check. I want them to experience the cold and introduce a small chance of being dragged down the river's current.
I developped this idea: 6 checks, on 3 fails they are pulled down the river. The cold can give them an exhaustion point.
1. Dealing with the extreme cold water (freezing cold) - constitution ST DC12 (on a success they feel their muscles tense but are able to shake it off, if they fail they ALL take a level of exhaustion right away and it counts as a fail).
I know this means disadvantage on all future check, I will offer them to get back out of the river but this is the main thing I want to be dangerous. If they continue:
2. Dealing with potholes and slippery rocks - straight dexterity DC 12 skill check or they can use survival to avoid them (on a success they help each other to keep upright and continue on, on a fail on of them goes under and one of the PC's is just in time to grab hold of him, pulling him back in. This counts as a fail.
3. A strong current pulls their legs from underneath them - DC 10 athletics check (on a success they manage to keep upright as a group by clutching on to each other, if they fail there is an option that this is their 3rd fail in which they all clutch on to each other and are dragged down stream, if it's the 1st or 2nd another one of them goes under and is dragged downstream but one of the players is able to toss a rope and pull him back in.
4. A string of algae clouds the water in front of them - DC15 perception check (on a success they see the algae and stay clear of it and reach the shore, on a fail they get hit by challenge 5.)
5. The string of algae slithers and wraps around their feet and legs tripping and slipping them - DC12 dexterity ST to prevent from getting caught by this (on a success they are able to move past the algae without much trouble and reach the shore, if they fail they get entangled in the algae and are considered restrained.
6. To free themselves from the algae a DC10 strength check to get to shore.
What do you think? Any ideas or flaws in this?
Hi,
I like the idea for the challenge!
You say 6 tests, but isn't it really 4? Test 5 and 6 are only options IF they fail on the fourth test, right?
I like your first three challenges best. The algae could be cool, but as written, it feels kind of ad hoc. I'll try to explain. You're telling the players they have to cross a river. The dangers are basically the cold and the water. Then, in the middle of the stream you add another difficulty - the algae. That could be cool, but I would have included that in the description of the challenge.
What I would have considered "adding" to your challenge are some real consequences. As I read you, the "only" consequences you've planned is A. an exhaustion point and B. the possibility of failing. Simply failing to cross the river doesn't work in the long term I guess, since you probably need the players to cross this river. The exhaustion point is also not necessarily a big deal if they can get rid of it by taking a long rest just after crossing the river.
This could also be an excellent opportunity to imply the harshest version of encumbrance rules. What do the players carry themselves, what do they pack on their horses? Instead of having a player get taken by the stream, have a horse disappear. Take some of their stuff! You could also give them cold damage each round. Should depend on their level, but if you're saying it will take 6 rounds to cross the river, give them enough damage that it could possibly be dangerous (Con save for half). Also excellent opportunity for using that resistance against cold spell.
A final advice - remember to give them a warning up front that crossing this river will be dangerous. Give them time to plan. Don't just let them start to cross, and then start hitting them with rolls. My experience is that an encounter like this often works best when the players "solve" it before they try to cross the river. If you manage to get them understand that this is really dangerous, they will plan and be careful. They will feel the danger, but let them have advantages for the planning they've done. That won't take away the danger, it will only make the players feel they are smart.
Ludo ergo sum!
Thanks for your response and additions.
I will most definatly include the algae and the dangers to the initial description. The other consequences are good to add, they are on foot and don't carry a lot as they have a bag of holding. But I will add: things will get wet and might spoil in their inventory and the cold damage idea I also like as an extra consequence.
Thanks a lot for your input.
Kr,
Rob.
The challenges as you describe them below don’t sound like group challenges. They sound like individual skill checks with individual penalties. Only required from everyone. If you want a group pass/fail, you take the averages of their checks and measure the average against the DC. Then apply the results to the situation. Group stealth checks determine whether the party is noticed. A group athletics check might determine a tug-of-war game. A group performance Or deception check might determine the effectiveness of a pretending to have a big argument so one player could sneak away unnoticed. Other than those, I can’t think of other skills where a group check makes sense. Rangers exist pretty much to do the survival checks so others without the skill don’t have to.
Having anyone who fails a con save take a penalty is fair, and standard. They are trying to perform tasks in freezing water. I don’t think the penalty needs to be actual exhaustion, but it’s fine to award disadvantage or advantage on the next check based on the results of the most recent CON save.
I think this might be the weakest link in your chain of events. Typically, you see parties tie themselves together before doing things like this anyway, so there’s a safety net to being swept away. The terrain you describe sounds like a place where a DM might say “The ground is slick and uneven. Give me a DEX save, or you fall in and take 1d6 cold damage. At disadvantage if you failed the CON save“
again, this is why most groups preemptively tie themselves off. I think a more straightforward way of dealing with it is, “You’ve regained your footing from slipping on the rocks. Everyone make a new CON save. Now, you’re out in the deepest channel of the river, and the current is strong here. Make an athletics check-at disadvantage if you failed the CON save-to avoid being swept off your feet.” Failing means going under and taking more cold damage. And if not tied off, swept 30ft away for each round they are unable to regain their footing, taking cold damage each round they’re under.
I think 3 rounds of con saves and skill checks is fair for one river crossing. Then if they failed 2 of their 3 con saves in the water, or took any cold damage from being pulled under, they take a point of exhaustion on exiting the river.