I'm trying to be considerate and keep the number of (main) important NPC's to a minimum. The one problem is I have added at least 1 NPC from each player's background (3) and already had 3 that were part of the overall story to give exposition etc.
Now I'm having a bit of trouble because I'm running a tweaked version of ice spire keep and there are at least 7-10 shopkeeps and other NPC's in the adventure. Does that seem like too much to remember? Should I shorten or combine some of these? Perhaps the players might never meet some of them.
If the players never meet some, but you have them ready just in case, you’re in great shape. When you said there were 7-10 NPCs in the adventure, I thought you meant actively traveling with the party. Some groups try to recruit NPCs to join them on quests, and some do tend to collect NPCs. But it looks like you just meant you have that many NPCs that could come into play at any given location. In which case, you’re nowhere close to what I’d call spread too thin.
What are you really worried about? Not being able to play them with unique personality or to make them entertaining? If it makes sense within the story that this NPC is a distinct person, then they should be a distinct person. If it makes sense within the story that another NPC could perform the same task, or give the quest, or fill in the storyline, and you want to substitute an existing NPC instead of introducing a new one, you have that freedom.
I think this is a great amount of NPCs as long as you can keep them distinct and have their purposes be clear without them feeling too flat. So if the group finds an old book to be translated, they can check with the wise wizard lady, if they need information on the town’s gossip they can talk to the barkeep, if they need help fighting orcs they can speak to the captain of the guard, or what have you. I think as long as the players aren’t confused on who will have clues for their next step, your NPCs will work just fine.
If you combine a backstory NPC with an adventure NPC, you have the useful side effect of giving the PC a natural hook into the party.
If you combine two backstory NPCs, you have the useful side effect of giving the PCs natural hooks to each other.
There is no guarantee that any of those people are important, though. There's nothing wrong with large numbers of NPCs as long as you don't need to deal with them all at once.
A word of advice. Don't have two of them with names that start with the same letter. It's a general rule in fiction writing, and it applies to D&D as well. It's easier to keep them separate in player's minds.
And also, I think it's a fine amount. Most of the time background NPCs show up once or twice in a campaign, give the PC they're connected with a bit of flavor and then move on, so it shouldn't be too much for them to manage. Also, don't really worry about shopkeeps, unless your players do a lot of role playing. It's fine for them to have a distinct personality and voice, but it's usually not worth fully fleshing out their home life, or anything. PC's come in, buy (or commission) their stuff, and move on. A guy with a bit of personality is great, but PCs don't want to know if the guy's marriage is in a rough spot, or who his favorite knight is in the upcoming joust. It's kind of overplanning to bother figuring that out.
Good advice. yeah, I was worried about making them distinct or having the players get confused...like "who was this guy again?"
Plus I like to drive games with a lot of roleplay, so I felt the need to flesh them out...but maybe that's overkill. is there a shortcut you guys use to kind of build out a brief character traits sheet for them?
Depends on the NPC. If its a shopkeeper, you basically need to know how good they are at their job and how good they are at haggling, something like, say, their stealth score really won't come into play. These are shopkeepers, not adventurers, so its safe to say they're average members of their race, like straight 10's for a human in ability scores. Generally, they're as good at their job as they need to be for the story. If you need a weaponsmith who can work with that really rare metal the PCs just found, you decide if the local guy can do it or not and go with it. You can probably get away with saying something like, they haggle a lot, so they've got an X DC for persuasion checks (where X is reasonable number for your party, or as hard as you want it to be) when the players are trying to talk them down on the price. Much more than that isn't likely to come up. If you're really nervous that something will come up that will require more depth, just stat out one of them. Shopkeeper stats are likely going to be interchangeable, and your players will never know the difference.
For background NPCs, that's going to depend on what they do. The easiest way would be to use a monster manual entry that's most appropriate from the NPC section. Or start with that and tweak it as you need (there's even tips for customizing NPCs in the MM). Only in a very rare case when its going to be a very import, recurring NPC that is going to participate in encounters (combat or noncombat) would I go the route of fully statting it out like a PC. Of course, I tend to be lazy and time constrained, so I do things the easy way. If you like making up NPCs, and I know a lot of people do, go for it, have fun, just don't spend so much time on the gardener's backstory that you run out of time to build interesting encounters.
Every DM has their own comfort level with NPCs. So choose what's best for you. That's it.
For me I like to write up the world and the world changes every day in every place regardless if the players go there or not. It's a living and breathing world.
I have towns that are at war right now but the players have not been there.
I keep my areas under 100npcs but each one has a backstory. That's where I'm comfortable. It's not the same for everyone. Will the players meet them all? No. But when it comes to fleshing out a works I feel that they have to be there.
So you're fine if you only want to make NPCs that are important to the story. Do what feels right.
I am running Lost Mine of Phandelver and my players can't remember ANYTHING.
They call the Nothic in Tresendar Manor, Mike Wizowski (from Monsters Inc.). They call the Spectator (who I named Borgan), Mike Wizowski.
Everytime I mentioned, Linene, they were like... who!? So I renamed her Lady Graywind, and they're like... who!?
I mentioned about five times that Gundren Rockseeker had brothers, and then when they're finally introduced in the last chapter... "WAIT DID YOU JUST MAKE THIS UP!?"
When they encountered the Spectator, I made up the fact that the Wizards of Phandelver that can dismiss him were aligned with the Order of the Gauntlet, and when one of my players remembered that Daran Edermath is aligned with them, I was like... you are now titled CHRONICLER OF THE REALM! Because no one remembers CRAP!
So I would say give them NPCs, but only maybe one or two per session, and don't expect them to remember things from more than two sessions prior. Or at least don't get offended if they don't remember. After 28 sessions, I have a list of 70 NPCs, and this is already way too many for them to remember.
yeah, this was my initial thoughts on icespire keep....too many NPC's that no one will care about...I started merging them and changing some of them to be related to the PC's backstories....the other advice "Don't have two of them with names that start with the same letter. It's a general rule in fiction writing, and it applies to D&D as well. It's easier to keep them separate in player's minds." from Xalthu might work too.
I think you’re on the right track about limiting key NPCs in your preparation. That said, the world will be filled with other NPCs, and as the campaign plays out some NPCs that you didn’t intend to be important might be. If nothing else because of PC actions or just that the players for some reason puts greater emphasis on other NPCs.
As a starting point, I would have one or two items per PC as a potential adventure hook. An item could be a place, an item and/or an NPC (that can be named or not). These might not be used, but are tools for you and the players to use when needed.
Then I would consider 1-3 key NPCs for a whole campaign. Add to that 0-3 per story arch. The more your players struggle with names, the fewer the NPCs the better, most likely.
Lastly, keep a list of NPCs that you might not have more than a name and possibly a fewkey words about, that you can throw in to populate the world with. Make a note of where they are when you use them and if the PCs meet with the person again, flesh them out more.
As a side note, when it comes to players remembering NPC names, I would suggest you talk it over in the group. You can’t force them to remember, but you can ask them to take notes. You can also try to simplify it further and have some NPCs known only by something easier to remember(“the Count”, “the Evil Witch”, “the Mage Lord” etc). Another option is to allow the players to name a key NPC. The great evilnecromancer Mike Wizowski might not be what you thought appropriate, but why not. Then again, some players simply do not care. They just want to slay monsters. If so, offer that option and see if you can build up greater interest in the world you create over time.
Another option, I should add, is just give the players a list of everyone they’ve met. Keep it on paper or digital, so all can use it when needed at the table. You can even highlight key NPCs. Better give them what they need, instead of struggling with players getting lost in intrigues and people they meet.
I'm trying to be considerate and keep the number of (main) important NPC's to a minimum. The one problem is I have added at least 1 NPC from each player's background (3) and already had 3 that were part of the overall story to give exposition etc.
Now I'm having a bit of trouble because I'm running a tweaked version of ice spire keep and there are at least 7-10 shopkeeps and other NPC's in the adventure. Does that seem like too much to remember? Should I shorten or combine some of these? Perhaps the players might never meet some of them.
Good rule of thumb:
better to have it and not need it. Than need it and not have it.
Not all NPC's need to be that unique. It's cool from time to time having a innkeeper or shopkeeper that is memorable, but it really doesn't make sense to try to have the players learn the names of each and every one they meet.
Regarding remembering names - that is more difficult than you often think. Try to give each "important" NPC a quirk or small backstory. The players might not remember the name of the guy, but they would probably remember that very foul breathed tinker gnome who sold them healing potions while picking his nose with his nose-picker-stick.
Just my opinion but there are never too many NPCs.
How many people can you encounter on a street? In a village? Hiking through the woods? In a dungeon? Every creature you might encounter is potentially an NPC. As a DM, you might have notes for a few NPCs, where they are located, anything interesting they might know, some quirks and descriptions. However, you also want to be ready to turn anyone into an NPC. Have some generic ideas for bar keeps, inn keepers, town guards, patrollers, ruffians, thieves, scholars, tradesmen, labourers, male and female, young and old - these are the people of your world and when a PC walks up to anyone, you should have a story ready to go even if it is mundane, boring and everyday. "Yep, I grew up around the corner from 'ere. My mam was the baker's daughter and me paw was a cobbler in the market. We made do and I learned my paw's trade. Make the best boost this side of the Orin river I do."Make up a name and jot down the notes on the NPC when you introduce them in case you need them later. Every NPC does not need to be a plot point or significant in any way. NPCs are part of the game world and having these available for anyone the party may choose to interact with is part of the immersion.
I'm trying to be considerate and keep the number of (main) important NPC's to a minimum. The one problem is I have added at least 1 NPC from each player's background (3) and already had 3 that were part of the overall story to give exposition etc.
Now I'm having a bit of trouble because I'm running a tweaked version of ice spire keep and there are at least 7-10 shopkeeps and other NPC's in the adventure. Does that seem like too much to remember? Should I shorten or combine some of these? Perhaps the players might never meet some of them.
If the players never meet some, but you have them ready just in case, you’re in great shape. When you said there were 7-10 NPCs in the adventure, I thought you meant actively traveling with the party. Some groups try to recruit NPCs to join them on quests, and some do tend to collect NPCs. But it looks like you just meant you have that many NPCs that could come into play at any given location. In which case, you’re nowhere close to what I’d call spread too thin.
What are you really worried about? Not being able to play them with unique personality or to make them entertaining? If it makes sense within the story that this NPC is a distinct person, then they should be a distinct person. If it makes sense within the story that another NPC could perform the same task, or give the quest, or fill in the storyline, and you want to substitute an existing NPC instead of introducing a new one, you have that freedom.
I think this is a great amount of NPCs as long as you can keep them distinct and have their purposes be clear without them feeling too flat.
So if the group finds an old book to be translated, they can check with the wise wizard lady, if they need information on the town’s gossip they can talk to the barkeep, if they need help fighting orcs they can speak to the captain of the guard, or what have you. I think as long as the players aren’t confused on who will have clues for their next step, your NPCs will work just fine.
If you combine a backstory NPC with an adventure NPC, you have the useful side effect of giving the PC a natural hook into the party.
If you combine two backstory NPCs, you have the useful side effect of giving the PCs natural hooks to each other.
There is no guarantee that any of those people are important, though. There's nothing wrong with large numbers of NPCs as long as you don't need to deal with them all at once.
A word of advice. Don't have two of them with names that start with the same letter. It's a general rule in fiction writing, and it applies to D&D as well. It's easier to keep them separate in player's minds.
And also, I think it's a fine amount. Most of the time background NPCs show up once or twice in a campaign, give the PC they're connected with a bit of flavor and then move on, so it shouldn't be too much for them to manage. Also, don't really worry about shopkeeps, unless your players do a lot of role playing. It's fine for them to have a distinct personality and voice, but it's usually not worth fully fleshing out their home life, or anything. PC's come in, buy (or commission) their stuff, and move on. A guy with a bit of personality is great, but PCs don't want to know if the guy's marriage is in a rough spot, or who his favorite knight is in the upcoming joust. It's kind of overplanning to bother figuring that out.
Much thanks.
Good advice. yeah, I was worried about making them distinct or having the players get confused...like "who was this guy again?"
Plus I like to drive games with a lot of roleplay, so I felt the need to flesh them out...but maybe that's overkill. is there a shortcut you guys use to kind of build out a brief character traits sheet for them?
Depends on the NPC. If its a shopkeeper, you basically need to know how good they are at their job and how good they are at haggling, something like, say, their stealth score really won't come into play. These are shopkeepers, not adventurers, so its safe to say they're average members of their race, like straight 10's for a human in ability scores. Generally, they're as good at their job as they need to be for the story. If you need a weaponsmith who can work with that really rare metal the PCs just found, you decide if the local guy can do it or not and go with it. You can probably get away with saying something like, they haggle a lot, so they've got an X DC for persuasion checks (where X is reasonable number for your party, or as hard as you want it to be) when the players are trying to talk them down on the price. Much more than that isn't likely to come up. If you're really nervous that something will come up that will require more depth, just stat out one of them. Shopkeeper stats are likely going to be interchangeable, and your players will never know the difference.
For background NPCs, that's going to depend on what they do. The easiest way would be to use a monster manual entry that's most appropriate from the NPC section. Or start with that and tweak it as you need (there's even tips for customizing NPCs in the MM). Only in a very rare case when its going to be a very import, recurring NPC that is going to participate in encounters (combat or noncombat) would I go the route of fully statting it out like a PC. Of course, I tend to be lazy and time constrained, so I do things the easy way. If you like making up NPCs, and I know a lot of people do, go for it, have fun, just don't spend so much time on the gardener's backstory that you run out of time to build interesting encounters.
My current campaign has some 30 npcs but only one that is a regular figure
Good topic.
Every DM has their own comfort level with NPCs. So choose what's best for you. That's it.
For me I like to write up the world and the world changes every day in every place regardless if the players go there or not. It's a living and breathing world.
I have towns that are at war right now but the players have not been there.
I keep my areas under 100npcs but each one has a backstory. That's where I'm comfortable. It's not the same for everyone. Will the players meet them all? No. But when it comes to fleshing out a works I feel that they have to be there.
So you're fine if you only want to make NPCs that are important to the story. Do what feels right.
I am running Lost Mine of Phandelver and my players can't remember ANYTHING.
They call the Nothic in Tresendar Manor, Mike Wizowski (from Monsters Inc.). They call the Spectator (who I named Borgan), Mike Wizowski.
Everytime I mentioned, Linene, they were like... who!? So I renamed her Lady Graywind, and they're like... who!?
I mentioned about five times that Gundren Rockseeker had brothers, and then when they're finally introduced in the last chapter... "WAIT DID YOU JUST MAKE THIS UP!?"
When they encountered the Spectator, I made up the fact that the Wizards of Phandelver that can dismiss him were aligned with the Order of the Gauntlet, and when one of my players remembered that Daran Edermath is aligned with them, I was like... you are now titled CHRONICLER OF THE REALM! Because no one remembers CRAP!
So I would say give them NPCs, but only maybe one or two per session, and don't expect them to remember things from more than two sessions prior. Or at least don't get offended if they don't remember. After 28 sessions, I have a list of 70 NPCs, and this is already way too many for them to remember.
yeah, this was my initial thoughts on icespire keep....too many NPC's that no one will care about...I started merging them and changing some of them to be related to the PC's backstories....the other advice "Don't have two of them with names that start with the same letter. It's a general rule in fiction writing, and it applies to D&D as well. It's easier to keep them separate in player's minds." from Xalthu might work too.
I think you’re on the right track about limiting key NPCs in your preparation. That said, the world will be filled with other NPCs, and as the campaign plays out some NPCs that you didn’t intend to be important might be. If nothing else because of PC actions or just that the players for some reason puts greater emphasis on other NPCs.
As a starting point, I would have one or two items per PC as a potential adventure hook. An item could be a place, an item and/or an NPC (that can be named or not). These might not be used, but are tools for you and the players to use when needed.
Then I would consider 1-3 key NPCs for a whole campaign. Add to that 0-3 per story arch. The more your players struggle with names, the fewer the NPCs the better, most likely.
Lastly, keep a list of NPCs that you might not have more than a name and possibly a few key words about, that you can throw in to populate the world with. Make a note of where they are when you use them and if the PCs meet with the person again, flesh them out more.
As a side note, when it comes to players remembering NPC names, I would suggest you talk it over in the group. You can’t force them to remember, but you can ask them to take notes. You can also try to simplify it further and have some NPCs known only by something easier to remember (“the Count”, “the Evil Witch”, “the Mage Lord” etc). Another option is to allow the players to name a key NPC. The great evil necromancer Mike Wizowski might not be what you thought appropriate, but why not. Then again, some players simply do not care. They just want to slay monsters. If so, offer that option and see if you can build up greater interest in the world you create over time.
Another option, I should add, is just give the players a list of everyone they’ve met. Keep it on paper or digital, so all can use it when needed at the table. You can even highlight key NPCs. Better give them what they need, instead of struggling with players getting lost in intrigues and people they meet.
Good rule of thumb:
better to have it and not need it. Than need it and not have it.
Blank
Not all NPC's need to be that unique. It's cool from time to time having a innkeeper or shopkeeper that is memorable, but it really doesn't make sense to try to have the players learn the names of each and every one they meet.
Regarding remembering names - that is more difficult than you often think. Try to give each "important" NPC a quirk or small backstory. The players might not remember the name of the guy, but they would probably remember that very foul breathed tinker gnome who sold them healing potions while picking his nose with his nose-picker-stick.
Ludo ergo sum!
haha...ahhh thanks for the visual....
Just my opinion but there are never too many NPCs.
How many people can you encounter on a street? In a village? Hiking through the woods? In a dungeon? Every creature you might encounter is potentially an NPC. As a DM, you might have notes for a few NPCs, where they are located, anything interesting they might know, some quirks and descriptions. However, you also want to be ready to turn anyone into an NPC. Have some generic ideas for bar keeps, inn keepers, town guards, patrollers, ruffians, thieves, scholars, tradesmen, labourers, male and female, young and old - these are the people of your world and when a PC walks up to anyone, you should have a story ready to go even if it is mundane, boring and everyday. "Yep, I grew up around the corner from 'ere. My mam was the baker's daughter and me paw was a cobbler in the market. We made do and I learned my paw's trade. Make the best boost this side of the Orin river I do."Make up a name and jot down the notes on the NPC when you introduce them in case you need them later. Every NPC does not need to be a plot point or significant in any way. NPCs are part of the game world and having these available for anyone the party may choose to interact with is part of the immersion.
So, to me, you can never have too many NPCs. :)
I usually keep as many NPC's equal to double the number of players for example 4 PC's = 8 NPC's. Does that help at all?
if there are too many npcs then you might have to kill off a few of them so long as those ones don't really have a lot to do with the story that is