Hello, I'm having a hard time keeping my party's attention when it comes to large scale lengthy combat. My party consists of four lvl 14 characters and one lvl 8 character and at this point they do so much damage that I have to really upscale my encounter to even have a meaningful effect on them. The problem comes whenever the combat lasts longer than 5-6 rounds, I start to lose their attention and the encounter starts to feel drawn out and exhausting. I've tried a variety of unique monsters combined with some fun terrain and have even home-brewed what I think are some pretty interesting creatures, but nothing has seemed to help. If anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated.
First off you should probably try to get your player levels closer together. The gap between level 8 and fourteen means that either the one level 8 player is going to stay behind and not participate in the combat or the level 14 players will cut through the enemies like they are nothing. This makes encounters really hard to balance.
A possible reason why they loose interest could be that the combat is already over after those 5 rounds. In my groups I usually see a point in combat, where the scales tip in favour of one side, most often after the first two/three enemies were defeated. After that point it is not combat anymore, the outcome is already determined and what's left is just "cleaning up" the remaining enemies.
Maybe this is your problem. In that case you can either end the combat early, since it is already won, or you can introduce some twist that turns the battlefield again. Like, one of the bandits you just killed was the lover of one that is still alive... and the one that is still alive got lycanthropy a few weeks back and the sudden rage at the loss of their loved ones triggers the transformation.
Or the evil mage suddenly realizes they have to get serious and start actually using their higher level spells like fireball.
Especially for boss fights some kind of "phase 2" or "enrage" can make encounters really interesting and memorable. One of my group once fought a mage in a dwarven forge and he had prepared for them by rigging some mechanisms so he could flood the entire room with molten steel. He could cast levitate to keep himself safe, while the players had to jump on furniture, wall decor and anything else they could grab, while trying to kill that flying mage who was raining firebolts down on them. I know they remember that fight because they are still afraid of entering dwarven forges... :D
The last thing I can think of is that the encounters are too easy. If there is no danger for your players, the battle becomes boring. You can solve that either by using stronger enemies ("hard" in Kobold Fight Club is usually just right for an average challenge in my groups).
Or by playing your monsters smarter. This blog has some awesome tips on how D&D monsters behave, that will also make the monsters more memorable rather than just a "bag of HP".
Thanks I really appreciate it, first off I should clarify the lvl 8 is an npc I control. However the rest of the advice is genuinely very helpful, I already have some ideas on how I can improve some stuff especially that whole "enrage" or "phase 2 mode". Thank you :)
Just don't overdo it with the second phases... ending the combat early is perfectly fine and if you add a second phase to every encounter that will quickly turn boring as well, since the surprise is gone. :D
Understandable, like most things moderation is key. Learned that the hard way, this is my first time DMing a long running campaign and may have overdid it with the magic items early on, part of the reason they dish out so much damage and I don't want to just rip their cool toys away. Thankfully this campaign is coming to a close in the next couple of weeks and we'll be starting a new one a couple weeks later, so it'll be really nice to start fresh with the knowledge I've gained during this one.
So this is just my personal opinion on this so take it with a grain of salt! But, When NPC party members get involved in a large fight, players will often perceive round-time different. For example: Lets say there are 6 monsters, four players, and 1 npc like you described. To you it feels like there are 11 turns in a round. But to the players, it feels like the DM's "turn" is 7 turns in a row (6 for the monsters, 1 for the NPC) so they take their 5 minute~ turn, then have to wait and zone out while the DM is in a sense, playing the game by himself.
This is at least how players at my table see it so I've made a rule for NO NPC party members, and when i build encounters, rather than quantity, I focus on quality of enemy.
I don't think many combats run past 4-5 rounds, for this very reason.
I think Naresea has hit upon a lot of very good points already.
Thinking more broadly on the problem, I think combats are interesting when there is an apprehension of danger, or risk, or there is a high level of uncertainty ( which is really just fear and apprehension of the unknown ); that is when the Players are actually in fear for their Characters or some other outcome that the bad guys are working toward in the battle. e.g. It's a running fight on horseback with the bad guys driving a wagon full of gunpowder kegs with lit fuses towards the orphanage. Sure, the Characters aren't in danger, but something they care about is ( substitute the hackneyed cliche of the orphanage with whatever works for your party).
I think this is why combats - once they reach a particular stage - stop being interesting; there is no uncertainty or fear anymore, you know which side is going to win, it's just mop up, in which case - as Naresea has already suggested - just hand wave the rest of the combat; the bad guys try and surrender, or you just tell the Party they handily mop up the last enemy combatants ( I might roll 2-3 attacks against each Character as part of the hand wave, since part of D&D combats are about resource management and depletion - in this case HP ).
Working the fear through uncertainty angle is why dynamic battlefields work - something has changed with how the battlefield works, so the level of uncertainty/apprehension/fear goes up until the tactics of the Players adapt: the bridge collapses cutting the Party's forces in two on either side of the chasm; the castle wall collapses under a bombardment and new combatants flood in; the water rises to the point where the terrain is now all difficult; etc.
Likewise, time limits and rising threats work well: the gunpowder wagon will reach the orphanage eventually; the sinking ship you're having a close-hand-to-hand combat below decks on will sink in X rounds; the bad guys will be reinforced in Y rounds, so you need to mop up the scouts and get the heck out of there ASAP!; etc.
This is also likely why Legendary Actions, and Legendary Resistances work - suddenly your opponent acts in a way you didn't expect, or a tactic that was previously working for you now fails. The combat is now less predictable, and we're back to interest-through-fear&apprehension, fear&apprehension-through-uncertainty. This is why I think Matt Colville's Action Oriented Monstersis such a cool idea as well. It is kind of bringing the uncertainty of Legendary Actions down a rung to more ordinary monsters.
I think Naresea is right that you kind of need the Party to be closer in level - or you need to find a way to segment the combat so that different power groups are dealing with different threats - "you guys hold off the Orcs ... we'll deal with the Necromancer!".
Hope this gives you a few techniques to keep things switched up and more interesting. However, use them sparingly, and randomly. Using them all, all the time, and you lose the uncertainty, which is not what you want. Always remember: interest through fear; fear through risk and uncertainty :)
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In addition to the "this isn't even my final form" idea, you can also have the enemy mobs break ranks and flee once the PCs really break the group's back.
It works with solo monsters, too - not everything is just going to blindly fight to the death, especially intelligent enemies. After a couple of times of a big bad managing to evade and escape destruction, the players are going to be on edge in the next fight, looking for signs of flight, coming up with plans to stop it and block off retreat.
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Hello, I'm having a hard time keeping my party's attention when it comes to large scale lengthy combat. My party consists of four lvl 14 characters and one lvl 8 character and at this point they do so much damage that I have to really upscale my encounter to even have a meaningful effect on them. The problem comes whenever the combat lasts longer than 5-6 rounds, I start to lose their attention and the encounter starts to feel drawn out and exhausting. I've tried a variety of unique monsters combined with some fun terrain and have even home-brewed what I think are some pretty interesting creatures, but nothing has seemed to help. If anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated.
First off you should probably try to get your player levels closer together. The gap between level 8 and fourteen means that either the one level 8 player is going to stay behind and not participate in the combat or the level 14 players will cut through the enemies like they are nothing. This makes encounters really hard to balance.
A possible reason why they loose interest could be that the combat is already over after those 5 rounds. In my groups I usually see a point in combat, where the scales tip in favour of one side, most often after the first two/three enemies were defeated. After that point it is not combat anymore, the outcome is already determined and what's left is just "cleaning up" the remaining enemies.
Maybe this is your problem. In that case you can either end the combat early, since it is already won, or you can introduce some twist that turns the battlefield again. Like, one of the bandits you just killed was the lover of one that is still alive... and the one that is still alive got lycanthropy a few weeks back and the sudden rage at the loss of their loved ones triggers the transformation.
Or the evil mage suddenly realizes they have to get serious and start actually using their higher level spells like fireball.
Especially for boss fights some kind of "phase 2" or "enrage" can make encounters really interesting and memorable. One of my group once fought a mage in a dwarven forge and he had prepared for them by rigging some mechanisms so he could flood the entire room with molten steel. He could cast levitate to keep himself safe, while the players had to jump on furniture, wall decor and anything else they could grab, while trying to kill that flying mage who was raining firebolts down on them. I know they remember that fight because they are still afraid of entering dwarven forges... :D
The last thing I can think of is that the encounters are too easy. If there is no danger for your players, the battle becomes boring. You can solve that either by using stronger enemies ("hard" in Kobold Fight Club is usually just right for an average challenge in my groups).
Or by playing your monsters smarter. This blog has some awesome tips on how D&D monsters behave, that will also make the monsters more memorable rather than just a "bag of HP".
http://themonstersknow.com/
Thanks I really appreciate it, first off I should clarify the lvl 8 is an npc I control. However the rest of the advice is genuinely very helpful, I already have some ideas on how I can improve some stuff especially that whole "enrage" or "phase 2 mode". Thank you :)
I'm glad I could help. :-)
Just don't overdo it with the second phases... ending the combat early is perfectly fine and if you add a second phase to every encounter that will quickly turn boring as well, since the surprise is gone. :D
Understandable, like most things moderation is key. Learned that the hard way, this is my first time DMing a long running campaign and may have overdid it with the magic items early on, part of the reason they dish out so much damage and I don't want to just rip their cool toys away. Thankfully this campaign is coming to a close in the next couple of weeks and we'll be starting a new one a couple weeks later, so it'll be really nice to start fresh with the knowledge I've gained during this one.
So this is just my personal opinion on this so take it with a grain of salt! But, When NPC party members get involved in a large fight, players will often perceive round-time different. For example: Lets say there are 6 monsters, four players, and 1 npc like you described. To you it feels like there are 11 turns in a round. But to the players, it feels like the DM's "turn" is 7 turns in a row (6 for the monsters, 1 for the NPC) so they take their 5 minute~ turn, then have to wait and zone out while the DM is in a sense, playing the game by himself.
This is at least how players at my table see it so I've made a rule for NO NPC party members, and when i build encounters, rather than quantity, I focus on quality of enemy.
I don't think many combats run past 4-5 rounds, for this very reason.
I think Naresea has hit upon a lot of very good points already.
Thinking more broadly on the problem, I think combats are interesting when there is an apprehension of danger, or risk, or there is a high level of uncertainty ( which is really just fear and apprehension of the unknown ); that is when the Players are actually in fear for their Characters or some other outcome that the bad guys are working toward in the battle. e.g. It's a running fight on horseback with the bad guys driving a wagon full of gunpowder kegs with lit fuses towards the orphanage. Sure, the Characters aren't in danger, but something they care about is ( substitute the hackneyed cliche of the orphanage with whatever works for your party).
I think this is why combats - once they reach a particular stage - stop being interesting; there is no uncertainty or fear anymore, you know which side is going to win, it's just mop up, in which case - as Naresea has already suggested - just hand wave the rest of the combat; the bad guys try and surrender, or you just tell the Party they handily mop up the last enemy combatants ( I might roll 2-3 attacks against each Character as part of the hand wave, since part of D&D combats are about resource management and depletion - in this case HP ).
Working the fear through uncertainty angle is why dynamic battlefields work - something has changed with how the battlefield works, so the level of uncertainty/apprehension/fear goes up until the tactics of the Players adapt: the bridge collapses cutting the Party's forces in two on either side of the chasm; the castle wall collapses under a bombardment and new combatants flood in; the water rises to the point where the terrain is now all difficult; etc.
Likewise, time limits and rising threats work well: the gunpowder wagon will reach the orphanage eventually; the sinking ship you're having a close-hand-to-hand combat below decks on will sink in X rounds; the bad guys will be reinforced in Y rounds, so you need to mop up the scouts and get the heck out of there ASAP!; etc.
This is also likely why Legendary Actions, and Legendary Resistances work - suddenly your opponent acts in a way you didn't expect, or a tactic that was previously working for you now fails. The combat is now less predictable, and we're back to interest-through-fear&apprehension, fear&apprehension-through-uncertainty. This is why I think Matt Colville's Action Oriented Monsters is such a cool idea as well. It is kind of bringing the uncertainty of Legendary Actions down a rung to more ordinary monsters.
I think Naresea is right that you kind of need the Party to be closer in level - or you need to find a way to segment the combat so that different power groups are dealing with different threats - "you guys hold off the Orcs ... we'll deal with the Necromancer!".
Hope this gives you a few techniques to keep things switched up and more interesting. However, use them sparingly, and randomly. Using them all, all the time, and you lose the uncertainty, which is not what you want. Always remember: interest through fear; fear through risk and uncertainty :)
Best of luck!
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
In addition to the "this isn't even my final form" idea, you can also have the enemy mobs break ranks and flee once the PCs really break the group's back.
It works with solo monsters, too - not everything is just going to blindly fight to the death, especially intelligent enemies. After a couple of times of a big bad managing to evade and escape destruction, the players are going to be on edge in the next fight, looking for signs of flight, coming up with plans to stop it and block off retreat.