I've got a Wild Magic sorcerer in my party and as the DM i want to make sure they actually get to use their subclass. I've played in campaigns before where the DM didn't know how it worked and the Surge table literally never came up, and while I agree it's a bit of frustrating design that requires that the DM know how the subclass rules in order for it to work on top of everything else the DM needs to worry about, it's not a problem for me because I do already know about Tide's of Chaos and how it can be regularly used to trigger Wild Surged and all that.
The problem is that the player does not. They're a new player and they keep forgetting that they have class abilities outside of spells. The Wild Magic table is *the* main feature of the subclass, however they've only used Tides of Chaos once (when I reminded them they could) and have only gotten to roll on the table once so far in about 3 sessions (as opposed to every round like you can get it with ToC).
Now, the player does know about the ability, they have the rulebook, I know they've read it, they just keep forgetting about it in the moment and we've discussed it out of game, and that's how I know that the issue isn't just that they don't care or aren't paying attention. They're having fun and are engaged, and had a lot of fun that one time when they did roll on the table and de-aged into a teenager.
For that reason, I'm considering homebrewing the Wild Surge trigger to more easily set a WS off on its own without ToC. I know a ton of DM's end up doing this so I figured I'd see what kinda feedback is out there. I'm considering changing the "roll a d20 after every leveled spell and on a nat 1 you surge" to "roll a Con (or maybe INT or WIS since sorcerers are proficient in Con) save after casting a leveled spell: on a failure, roll wild magic. The Save DC is 10+ the level of the spell".
What do you think? Should I change it? If so, is that a decent fix do you think?
There's a Wild Mage in DnDnD (Dnd podcast, and a good one at that), and for that they rolled a percentage dice - for a first level spell, they had to get more than 10, second level spell 20, etc., up to a maximum of 40. That always seems to work well, and at higher levels the character got to cast the spell they were trying to cast as well.
My worry there is that, with most combat generally only lasting 3ish rounds, is 1-3/20 significantly high enough? The odds are still pretty low of a Surge happening on its own unless it's a very long fight.
My worry there is that, with most combat generally only lasting 3ish rounds, is 1-3/20 significantly high enough? The odds are still pretty low of a Surge happening on its own unless it's a very long fight.
The number doesn't reset every combat. It continues to climb and climb until they surge. It represents the unstable magic in their body growing more and more unstable until it is unleashed.
The problem is that the player does not. They're a new player and they keep forgetting that they have class abilities outside of spells. The Wild Magic table is *the* main feature of the subclass, however they've only used Tides of Chaos once (when I reminded them they could) and have only gotten to roll on the table once so far in about 3 sessions (as opposed to every round like you can get it with ToC).
For clarification are you more frustrated by your player forgetting to roll on the wild magic surge table or forgetting to use Tides of Chaos? I ask because if I'm rereading the class correctly those aren't the same thing. The player is supposed to roll on the surge table once per turn (DM's discretion) after casting a spell of 1st level or higher. The player can only use Tides of Chaos once per long rest and must roll on the surge table before regaining the ability. So looking at your original point, you couldn't use Tides of Chaos every round, spellcasting by itself triggers the surge (so long as the DM enforces that rule). Your idea for homebrew is - as I understand it - literally how the feature is supposed to work in RAW.
So if you want to use the surge table more, then you as the DM may just need to remind the player to roll after casting spell more. If the issue is the player isn't rolling a 1 on the surge die enough for your liking then something like LeBattery's suggestion is an option.
The problem is that the player does not. They're a new player and they keep forgetting that they have class abilities outside of spells. The Wild Magic table is *the* main feature of the subclass, however they've only used Tides of Chaos once (when I reminded them they could) and have only gotten to roll on the table once so far in about 3 sessions (as opposed to every round like you can get it with ToC).
For clarification are you more frustrated by your player forgetting to roll on the wild magic surge table or forgetting to use Tides of Chaos? I ask because if I'm rereading the class correctly those aren't the same thing. The player is supposed to roll on the surge table once per turn (DM's discretion) after casting a spell of 1st level or higher. The player can only use Tides of Chaos once per long rest and must roll on the surge table before regaining the ability. So looking at your original point, you couldn't use Tides of Chaos every round, spellcasting by itself triggers the surge (so long as the DM enforces that rule). Your idea for homebrew is - as I understand it - literally how the feature is supposed to work in RAW.
So if you want to use the surge table more, then you as the DM may just need to remind the player to roll after casting spell more. If the issue is the player isn't rolling a 1 on the surge die enough for your liking then something like LeBattery's suggestion is an option.
Wild Magic and Tides of Chaos actually interact differently from that.
You roll for Wild Magic after casting a leveled spell independently from ToC. The roll for Wild Magic after casting a leveled spell isn't 1 surge per turn per DM discretion, you roll a d20 after casting a leveled spell, and if you roll a nat 1 then you get a Wild Surge. ToC on the other hand, *is* long rest recovery, *but* it doesn't bonus recover next time you happen to hit a Wild Surge, it *causes* a Surge and *then* recharges. It states that
Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature.
so it isn't that you use Tides of Chaos and then next time you hit a Wild Surge you get it back. It's actually; you use Tides of Chaos and automatically the next time you cast a leveled spell, you roll a Wild Magic Surge, (and that isn't a roll *for* a Surge, that's an automatic roll *on* the Surge table) and then after you Surge you immediately get your ToC back.
To answer your original question I would say it's more the Tides of Chaos thing, since that's how you reliably get Wild Surges (as I explained above) since I've seen literal campaigns go by without a sorcerer ever rolling a 1 for a Wild Surg, however I'd also say that "frustrated" is the wrong word. I understand new players forgetting stuff and new player confusion, I just don't want the player to miss out on what I consider a really fun subclass because of it.
So you are a dm who is training a forgeting newbie. Don't change anything. Buy a bigger than normal D20 and roll it everything they cast a spell. Then ask them if was a cantrip.
So you are a dm who is training a forgeting newbie. Don't change anything. Buy a bigger than normal D20 and roll it everything they cast a spell. Then ask them if was a cantrip.
Well we're playing online so...
And again, the problem is not remembering to roll for Wild Magic. I instruct them to do that every time they cast a leveled spell. That however, is not the primary source of Surges for the subclass, since even remembering to roll each time you still have to roll a nat 1 on a d20 in order to set off a Surge that way, which is unlikely to the point that I have almost never seen it happen, and as the main feature of the subclass, Wild Magic surges should not be a once-in-a-campaign thing.
The primary way to get Wild Magic Surges, RAW, is to use Tides of Chaos to directly trigger a Surge before refreshing the ability. I cannot tell the player when to use that ability the way I can remind them to roll, I can only remind them that they have it.
So you are a dm who is training a forgeting newbie. Don't change anything. Buy a bigger than normal D20 and roll it everything they cast a spell. Then ask them if was a cantrip.
Well we're playing online so...
And again, the problem is not remembering to roll for Wild Magic. I instruct them to do that every time they cast a leveled spell. That however, is not the primary source of Surges for the subclass, since even remembering to roll each time you still have to roll a nat 1 on a d20 in order to set off a Surge that way, which is unlikely to the point that I have almost never seen it happen, and as the main feature of the subclass, Wild Magic surges should not be a once-in-a-campaign thing.
The primary way to get Wild Magic Surges, RAW, is to use Tides of Chaos to directly trigger a Surge before refreshing the ability. I cannot tell the player when to use that ability the way I can remind them to roll, I can only remind them that they have it.
Ok, I see what you mean. I use the 3 time rule. I remind new people up to 3 times per session about their abilities. After that then, I don't worry about it. But at the close of the session I do tell people to study up on their pc. (You can tell I currently running for high school and college kids.) If reminding people of their pc abilities does not work, I have suggested, a class or pc rebuild. Once I told one game, they could not play class x for six months. This ticked off half the table but the player agreed to play other classes. When he played the previous banned class, they were more comfortable with the general rules and had studied the class.
Ok, I see what you mean. I use the 3 time rule. I remind new people up to 3 times per session about their abilities. After that then, I don't worry about it. But at the close of the session I do tell people to study up on their pc. (You can tell I currently running for high school and college kids.) If reminding people of their pc abilities does not work, I have suggested, a class or pc rebuild. Once I told one game, they could not play class x for six months. This ticked off half the table but the player agreed to play other classes. When he played the previous banned class, they were more comfortable with the general rules and had studied the class.
That sounds like a good policy, I might try something like that before I resort to homebrewing the rules.
To answer your original question I would say it's more the Tides of Chaos thing, since that's how you reliably get Wild Surges (as I explained above) since I've seen literal campaigns go by without a sorcerer ever rolling a 1 for a Wild Surg, however I'd also say that "frustrated" is the wrong word. I understand new players forgetting stuff and new player confusion, I just don't want the player to miss out on what I consider a really fun subclass because of it.
Gotcha. Well my first character ever was a wild magic sorcerer, and our DM was just getting back into DnD after many years of not playing, so we both definitely didn't use these features correctly / forgot about them at the time. It was still a fun and fulfilling campaign, so I wouldn't get too concerned about your player not knowing their class perfectly unless they tell you they're having an issue. Some of my players are still forgetting and remembering features about their classes and we've been playing this campaign for over 6 months, but they're having fun which is what matters at the end of the day. My old DM would sometimes make me roll randomly even if I hadn't cast a spell, like during social encounters, just to add some additional chaos to the game which I thought was a nice touch. I think jasperrdm's 3 times rule is a good one for reminding players, however, outright banning x class after a few times might be a little extreme.
I honestly would keep asking if I were a DM. I play with a lot of young or new players in one campaign and I reminded them the entire first adventure. They now use ToC relentlessly - and it’s awesome.
Shes 10 inches taller, blue-skinned, bald, and yelling all the time. She loves it now!
(she also made it standard - so unless she says NOT to use it, we just assumed she is)
What I do is have them roll for the wild magic surge each time they cast a spell, that way it's one less thing I have to remember as a DM, and it makes the player feel like they actually have 1st level features. My Wild Magic Sorcerer loves it!
My player has since learned to apply Tides of Chaos whenever applicable, but it's a shame he took so many spells with saving throws rather than attack rolls haha
My player has since learned to apply Tides of Chaos whenever applicable, but it's a shame he took so many spells with saving throws rather than attack rolls haha
Why does the number of attack roll spells matter? The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.
"Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature."
So the number of uses of Tides of Chaos is limited by the character's spell slots since casting ANY sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher can restore ToC.
-----
However, from a roleplaying perspective, I have never been able to figure out why ANY character would choose to travel with a wild magic sorcerer. Twice now, in separate parties/games, I have had characters damaged or a party almost TPKed by a Wild Magic Surge Fireball. They may not be common but they do happen and if you are trying to roll on the table by making maximum use of ToC then they will happen. Honestly, I don't think I have a single character who would choose to adventure with a suicidal wild magic sorcerer - it isn't worth their life to do so. If the back story was designed to give the characters motivation to adventure it might work for a while but unless the character was trying to get "fixed" so they didn't have a decent chance of killing innocents or party members - I wouldn't travel with them. (e.g. a wild magic sorcerer subtly casts Suggestion in a tavern, rolls to refresh ToC, and fireballs all the patrons killing dozens along with any of their friends who might be there. A 3rd level sorcerer also doesn't have that many hit points so they might kill themselves, their party and most of the tavern in one go ... then everyone gets to create new characters, hopefully without a wild magic sorcerer.
My player has since learned to apply Tides of Chaos whenever applicable, but it's a shame he took so many spells with saving throws rather than attack rolls haha
Why does the number of attack roll spells matter? The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.
I know how it works, you just use less ToC when you make less attack rolls, which you do when your spells do not require them because they prompt a saving throw in someone else. Saving throws and ability checks are never as much under the player's control on their turn as attack rolls are. You can choose to make an attack roll on your turn, but you can basically never choose to make a saving throw and you as a caster rarely need to make ability checks during your turn.
My player has since learned to apply Tides of Chaos whenever applicable, but it's a shame he took so many spells with saving throws rather than attack rolls haha
Why does the number of attack roll spells matter? The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.
"Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature."
So the number of uses of Tides of Chaos is limited by the character's spell slots since casting ANY sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher can restore ToC.
-----
However, from a roleplaying perspective, I have never been able to figure out why ANY character would choose to travel with a wild magic sorcerer. Twice now, in separate parties/games, I have had characters damaged or a party almost TPKed by a Wild Magic Surge Fireball. They may not be common but they do happen and if you are trying to roll on the table by making maximum use of ToC then they will happen. Honestly, I don't think I have a single character who would choose to adventure with a suicidal wild magic sorcerer - it isn't worth their life to do so. If the back story was designed to give the characters motivation to adventure it might work for a while but unless the character was trying to get "fixed" so they didn't have a decent chance of killing innocents or party members - I wouldn't travel with them. (e.g. a wild magic sorcerer subtly casts Suggestion in a tavern, rolls to refresh ToC, and fireballs all the patrons killing dozens along with any of their friends who might be there. A 3rd level sorcerer also doesn't have that many hit points so they might kill themselves, their party and most of the tavern in one go ... then everyone gets to create new characters, hopefully without a wild magic sorcerer.
“The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.”
They can only use it for spells that use Attack Rolls, or when the character themselves are using it to reroll their own Svaing Throws or Ability Check. So you can’t use it every round if you’re casting Save Spells instead of Attack Roll Spells.
As for RP: it sounds like those would all lead to great RP opportunities for someone to stay very far away from others, except in dire situations. If your WM Sorc is purposefully casting leveled spells in the presence of a bunch of civilians or always in the midst of their allies (especially at low level), I’d agree with you. Same goes for the rogue that assassinates every citizen they come across, the Barbarian that decides to challenge a plot dragon to combat at level 2, etc. - the class itself isn’t the issue, it’s every edgy Player that’s the problem.
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I've got a Wild Magic sorcerer in my party and as the DM i want to make sure they actually get to use their subclass. I've played in campaigns before where the DM didn't know how it worked and the Surge table literally never came up, and while I agree it's a bit of frustrating design that requires that the DM know how the subclass rules in order for it to work on top of everything else the DM needs to worry about, it's not a problem for me because I do already know about Tide's of Chaos and how it can be regularly used to trigger Wild Surged and all that.
The problem is that the player does not. They're a new player and they keep forgetting that they have class abilities outside of spells. The Wild Magic table is *the* main feature of the subclass, however they've only used Tides of Chaos once (when I reminded them they could) and have only gotten to roll on the table once so far in about 3 sessions (as opposed to every round like you can get it with ToC).
Now, the player does know about the ability, they have the rulebook, I know they've read it, they just keep forgetting about it in the moment and we've discussed it out of game, and that's how I know that the issue isn't just that they don't care or aren't paying attention. They're having fun and are engaged, and had a lot of fun that one time when they did roll on the table and de-aged into a teenager.
For that reason, I'm considering homebrewing the Wild Surge trigger to more easily set a WS off on its own without ToC. I know a ton of DM's end up doing this so I figured I'd see what kinda feedback is out there. I'm considering changing the "roll a d20 after every leveled spell and on a nat 1 you surge" to "roll a Con (or maybe INT or WIS since sorcerers are proficient in Con) save after casting a leveled spell: on a failure, roll wild magic. The Save DC is 10+ the level of the spell".
What do you think? Should I change it? If so, is that a decent fix do you think?
Thanks!
I've actually seen some homebrew where they increase the triggering roll each time a surge doesn't happen (resets on surge) so:
Turn 1. Cast a spell (roll WMd20 triggering surge on a 1) No surge
Turn 2. Cast a spell (roll WMd20 triggering surge on a 2 ) No surge
Turn 3. Cast a spell (roll WMd20 triggering surge on a 3 ) Surge happens! (Trigger resets to 1)
Pretty much this just makes it so the more magic that's used with no surge, the more likely there will be a surge
There's a Wild Mage in DnDnD (Dnd podcast, and a good one at that), and for that they rolled a percentage dice - for a first level spell, they had to get more than 10, second level spell 20, etc., up to a maximum of 40. That always seems to work well, and at higher levels the character got to cast the spell they were trying to cast as well.
I use this rule in my own games for Wild Magic, and it's great.
My worry there is that, with most combat generally only lasting 3ish rounds, is 1-3/20 significantly high enough? The odds are still pretty low of a Surge happening on its own unless it's a very long fight.
The number doesn't reset every combat. It continues to climb and climb until they surge. It represents the unstable magic in their body growing more and more unstable until it is unleashed.
For clarification are you more frustrated by your player forgetting to roll on the wild magic surge table or forgetting to use Tides of Chaos? I ask because if I'm rereading the class correctly those aren't the same thing. The player is supposed to roll on the surge table once per turn (DM's discretion) after casting a spell of 1st level or higher. The player can only use Tides of Chaos once per long rest and must roll on the surge table before regaining the ability. So looking at your original point, you couldn't use Tides of Chaos every round, spellcasting by itself triggers the surge (so long as the DM enforces that rule). Your idea for homebrew is - as I understand it - literally how the feature is supposed to work in RAW.
So if you want to use the surge table more, then you as the DM may just need to remind the player to roll after casting spell more. If the issue is the player isn't rolling a 1 on the surge die enough for your liking then something like LeBattery's suggestion is an option.
Wild Magic and Tides of Chaos actually interact differently from that.
You roll for Wild Magic after casting a leveled spell independently from ToC. The roll for Wild Magic after casting a leveled spell isn't 1 surge per turn per DM discretion, you roll a d20 after casting a leveled spell, and if you roll a nat 1 then you get a Wild Surge. ToC on the other hand, *is* long rest recovery, *but* it doesn't bonus recover next time you happen to hit a Wild Surge, it *causes* a Surge and *then* recharges. It states that
so it isn't that you use Tides of Chaos and then next time you hit a Wild Surge you get it back. It's actually; you use Tides of Chaos and automatically the next time you cast a leveled spell, you roll a Wild Magic Surge, (and that isn't a roll *for* a Surge, that's an automatic roll *on* the Surge table) and then after you Surge you immediately get your ToC back.
To answer your original question I would say it's more the Tides of Chaos thing, since that's how you reliably get Wild Surges (as I explained above) since I've seen literal campaigns go by without a sorcerer ever rolling a 1 for a Wild Surg, however I'd also say that "frustrated" is the wrong word. I understand new players forgetting stuff and new player confusion, I just don't want the player to miss out on what I consider a really fun subclass because of it.
So you are a dm who is training a forgeting newbie. Don't change anything. Buy a bigger than normal D20 and roll it everything they cast a spell. Then ask them if was a cantrip.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Well we're playing online so...
And again, the problem is not remembering to roll for Wild Magic. I instruct them to do that every time they cast a leveled spell. That however, is not the primary source of Surges for the subclass, since even remembering to roll each time you still have to roll a nat 1 on a d20 in order to set off a Surge that way, which is unlikely to the point that I have almost never seen it happen, and as the main feature of the subclass, Wild Magic surges should not be a once-in-a-campaign thing.
The primary way to get Wild Magic Surges, RAW, is to use Tides of Chaos to directly trigger a Surge before refreshing the ability. I cannot tell the player when to use that ability the way I can remind them to roll, I can only remind them that they have it.
Ok, I see what you mean. I use the 3 time rule. I remind new people up to 3 times per session about their abilities. After that then, I don't worry about it. But at the close of the session I do tell people to study up on their pc. (You can tell I currently running for high school and college kids.) If reminding people of their pc abilities does not work, I have suggested, a class or pc rebuild. Once I told one game, they could not play class x for six months. This ticked off half the table but the player agreed to play other classes. When he played the previous banned class, they were more comfortable with the general rules and had studied the class.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
That sounds like a good policy, I might try something like that before I resort to homebrewing the rules.
Gotcha. Well my first character ever was a wild magic sorcerer, and our DM was just getting back into DnD after many years of not playing, so we both definitely didn't use these features correctly / forgot about them at the time. It was still a fun and fulfilling campaign, so I wouldn't get too concerned about your player not knowing their class perfectly unless they tell you they're having an issue. Some of my players are still forgetting and remembering features about their classes and we've been playing this campaign for over 6 months, but they're having fun which is what matters at the end of the day. My old DM would sometimes make me roll randomly even if I hadn't cast a spell, like during social encounters, just to add some additional chaos to the game which I thought was a nice touch. I think jasperrdm's 3 times rule is a good one for reminding players, however, outright banning x class after a few times might be a little extreme.
I honestly would keep asking if I were a DM. I play with a lot of young or new players in one campaign and I reminded them the entire first adventure. They now use ToC relentlessly - and it’s awesome.
Shes 10 inches taller, blue-skinned, bald, and yelling all the time. She loves it now!
(she also made it standard - so unless she says NOT to use it, we just assumed she is)
What I do is have them roll for the wild magic surge each time they cast a spell, that way it's one less thing I have to remember as a DM, and it makes the player feel like they actually have 1st level features. My Wild Magic Sorcerer loves it!
My player has since learned to apply Tides of Chaos whenever applicable, but it's a shame he took so many spells with saving throws rather than attack rolls haha
Why does the number of attack roll spells matter? The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.
"Any time before you regain the use of this feature, the DM can have you roll on the Wild Magic Surge table immediately after you cast a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. You then regain the use of this feature."
So the number of uses of Tides of Chaos is limited by the character's spell slots since casting ANY sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher can restore ToC.
-----
However, from a roleplaying perspective, I have never been able to figure out why ANY character would choose to travel with a wild magic sorcerer. Twice now, in separate parties/games, I have had characters damaged or a party almost TPKed by a Wild Magic Surge Fireball. They may not be common but they do happen and if you are trying to roll on the table by making maximum use of ToC then they will happen. Honestly, I don't think I have a single character who would choose to adventure with a suicidal wild magic sorcerer - it isn't worth their life to do so. If the back story was designed to give the characters motivation to adventure it might work for a while but unless the character was trying to get "fixed" so they didn't have a decent chance of killing innocents or party members - I wouldn't travel with them. (e.g. a wild magic sorcerer subtly casts Suggestion in a tavern, rolls to refresh ToC, and fireballs all the patrons killing dozens along with any of their friends who might be there. A 3rd level sorcerer also doesn't have that many hit points so they might kill themselves, their party and most of the tavern in one go ... then everyone gets to create new characters, hopefully without a wild magic sorcerer.
I know how it works, you just use less ToC when you make less attack rolls, which you do when your spells do not require them because they prompt a saving throw in someone else. Saving throws and ability checks are never as much under the player's control on their turn as attack rolls are. You can choose to make an attack roll on your turn, but you can basically never choose to make a saving throw and you as a caster rarely need to make ability checks during your turn.
“The character can USE Tides of Chaos on any "one attack roll,ability check, or saving throw". So they can use it on anything including cantrips. However, they only regain it when they cast ANY spell of 1st level or higher.”
They can only use it for spells that use Attack Rolls, or when the character themselves are using it to reroll their own Svaing Throws or Ability Check. So you can’t use it every round if you’re casting Save Spells instead of Attack Roll Spells.
As for RP: it sounds like those would all lead to great RP opportunities for someone to stay very far away from others, except in dire situations. If your WM Sorc is purposefully casting leveled spells in the presence of a bunch of civilians or always in the midst of their allies (especially at low level), I’d agree with you. Same goes for the rogue that assassinates every citizen they come across, the Barbarian that decides to challenge a plot dragon to combat at level 2, etc. - the class itself isn’t the issue, it’s every edgy Player that’s the problem.