Part of my campaign includes finding pieces of an artifact that when put together will give the party the advantage they need to defeat the bbeg.
The pieces were hidden across the planes many centuries ago by one of the PCs' ancestors. They are about to come across his journal where he took notes of how and where to hide each item. The idea is that this is his research as to how to get to each plane. And maybe some notes on what he found there or info he gathered before going to said plane. So there will be some straightforward things, but also a lot of it is shorthand for himself.
The 6 places chosen are
Feywild
Old temple of Moradin where he and his fellow adventurers set up traps and security.
Plane of earth
Plane of fire
Underdark
Shadowfell
I am good with the first two. Here is what i am doing so that it gives an idea of what im lookig for.
Feywild
"In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock" (this is the clue to figure out how to get to the feywild)
Then some other random notes like. "Titania" "no names, no food" "gifts?" So it can be interpreted different ways.
Im having trouble with clues for the last 4. Clues where the exact plane is obvious without spelling it out. But the details are ambiguous.
For the Plane of Fire, I once caused the party to go there by having the (at the time, and fake) BBEG teleport away from them to the plane. As I recall, the spell requires a tube or something from the destination plane. I ruled it was consumable in that it was left behind. The party found this where the enemy left from. Some bit of investigation was useful for them to figure out what happened. This led to a great adventure on the Plane of Fire that resulted in a big part of a larger arc, similar to what you're looking for.
Interesting post Evil_Lynn will update my reply as I muze on it...
Initial thoughts think it help to be clear in one's mind about the motivations of the clue giver ie in this case as I understand it clue giver has an item that can be used to defeat bbeg but is not strong enough to carry out the task so hopes to hide item from bbeg and it's henchmen while leaving a trail (clues) for worthy adventures that are up to the task of defeating bbeg.
Reason for breaking up item? when complete the item is easy for bbeg to locate clue giver is spending much energy keeping it hidden from bbeg before resolving to the plan of break the item up and leaving clues.
Reason for locations of item pieces? possibly split item pieces retain aspects of the whole item ie fire earth feywild etc and thus hiding pieces in respective domains cloaks and better hides them in the noise of that domain...
Clues themselves? their purpose is not to be obtuse but in part to test the worthiness of the adventures, consider they should all have a style particular to the clue giver ie loves anagrams - Temple of Moradin - More Flamed Point... A Implored Foment figuring out the style can be the real key to solving the clues this has the advantage of giving the players several moments of feeling successful ie once figuring out the more difficult style key they get to open all those juicy clue boxes with relative ease as it were...
you say you have the first two ie "Feywild "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock" (this is the clue to figure out how to get to the feywild) Then some other random notes like. "Titania" "no names, no food" "gifts?" So it can be interpreted different ways."
Does thia mean you have already given the players those clues? if so fine just means things are locked into that "style" of clue with regards to my thoughts on keeping to one style of clue and if so could you explain your thoughts behind the clue how does it "unlock"?
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Anyway, it sounds like the journal can point the adventurers to the general location of an entrance to the quest location, and from there they have to solve the clues in order to pass through the entrance. Yes? And then each time they go to a new quest location, they need a new entrance?
Or are the entrances obvious and easily passable, but the party simply needs to deduce which ones they're supposed to go through?
Interesting post Evil_Lynn will update my reply as I muze on it...
Initial thoughts think it help to be clear in one's mind about the motivations of the clue giver ie in this case as I understand it clue giver has an item that can be used to defeat bbeg but is not strong enough to carry out the task so hopes to hide item from bbeg and it's henchmen while leaving a trail (clues) for worthy adventures that are up to the task of defeating bbeg.
Reason for breaking up item? when complete the item is easy for bbeg to locate clue giver is spending much energy keeping it hidden from bbeg before resolving to the plan of break the item up and leaving clues.
Reason for locations of item pieces? possibly split item pieces retain aspects of the whole item ie fire earth feywild etc and thus hiding pieces in respective domains cloaks and better hides them in the noise of that domain...
Clues themselves? their purpose is not to be obtuse but in part to test the worthiness of the adventures, consider they should all have a style particular to the clue giver ie loves anagrams - Temple of Moradin - More Flamed Point... A Implored Foment figuring out the style can be the real key to solving the clues this has the advantage of giving the players several moments of feeling successful ie once figuring out the more difficult style key they get to open all those juicy clue boxes with relative ease as it were...
you say you have the first two ie "Feywild "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock" (this is the clue to figure out how to get to the feywild) Then some other random notes like. "Titania" "no names, no food" "gifts?" So it can be interpreted different ways."
Does thia mean you have already given the players those clues? if so fine just means things are locked into that "style" of clue with regards to my thoughts on keeping to one style of clue and if so could you explain your thoughts behind the clue how does it "unlock"?
Hey!
To answer with more background of the campaign.
This artifact was created thousands of years ago. It cuts off the connection between a god a its worshipers. Effectively reducing the god's overall power. This artifact was used on the god of fate to allow the wizards who created it to manipulate the world to their will. This is all Lore. Not really part of the campaign.
The ancestors of one of the PCs fought a battle to restore the godess of fate. And then was tasked to hide the pieces of the artifact as it could not be destroyed.
The clues the PCs are going to find were not created with the intention of being clues. Its the Ancestor's own personal notes as he was researching the places to hide it.
They are about to find this personal journal with these notes.
The BBEG is asmodeus. And in order to defeat his plan they need to cut him off his worshipers to diminish his power.
Anyway, it sounds like the journal can point the adventurers to the general location of an entrance to the quest location, and from there they have to solve the clues in order to pass through the entrance. Yes? And then each time they go to a new quest location, they need a new entrance?
Or are the entrances obvious and easily passable, but the party simply needs to deduce which ones they're supposed to go through?
Clocks have never been mentioned. But i like the rhyme.
Yes, these clues are more about location and maybe a few more this. I actually thought about it a bit more. Another exmple is "down the river of gems into the throat" (thats an actual location in the sword coast. Which i am gonna make the portal into the plane of earth. And then a few notes saying something like " the 3rd layer after the mirrors" which is a refence to the location within the plane of earth.
And with some checks or investigating they can put that together. And then they can go from there.
Creating clever clues is I think one of the tougher parts of writing good stories, so I can relate to the dilemma.
This is quite an epic scenario and so I think one of the ways to look at it is to imagine it from the player's perspective. As a player in this game, what I would hope would happen is that each "search" would have a different tone, a different story angle and/theme, so it isn't a repetitive process.
I would try to have the clues provided be a hint to the theme of the adventure itself, so the clue itself doesn't have to be a clue to the location, that part of the clue could be obvious and simple, but the clue might be used to give some context to the theme instead.
For example for the clue Shadowfell, the players may simply discover through research that there is a known Vampire in X place, perhaps someone famous like Strahd that holds the clue of the location of the artifact piece and they need to get the information out of him which might set the tone for the Shadowfell adventure where its all about negotiating with monsters they might otherwise typically simply fight and kill.
For the Underdark clue you might send the players a mysterious letter, something along the lines of "we know what you are looking for, meet us here and we can make a deal", where the players are dragged into a Drow conspiracy that pulls them into a story where they must help one Drow house defeat another as payment for the location of the artifact, or perhaps just for the artifact itself, making this a story about drow politics in the Underdark.
For the plain of Fire, the exact location is obvious and known, so finding the artifact was the easy part, but the hard part is that its in a vault of a powerful Elemental and the scenario is a kind of heist where there is no chance to fight their way through due to impossible odds (There is an army of 10,000 guardians or something like that), so they will need a "Oceans's 11" style plan where they get in and out without anyone ever knowing they were because if their presence is revealed, all hope is lost. Aka the theme here is making and executing a really complex plan where preparing for that plan is a big part of the adventure.
Then for the final one you might want to just go for a classic, gritty dungeon crawl. The artifact is in a famous dungeon and the players fight their way to the prize is a nasty dungeon filled with monsters and traps with no safe place to rest. A sort of "you have to finish this thing in the equivillant of 1 day of rest" with no opportunity for a long rest until the job is done and only one shot at it.
I guess what I'm saying is that the game doesn't have to be about "finding a clue", but rather, the clue meaning something to the style of the story and given that you have a nice division of locations here, you can change up the style of the game for each adventure with the clues acting as a sort of warning about what the adventure style will be.
Good thoughts! Yeah, im trying to make them all different.
This is basically where they discover the overall locations. So they can then choose where to go first / what to research first.
Mmm... so the clues are not actually intended as clues but parts of the Ancestors notes that point to the location of the pieces of the artifact... classically such parts of a note book would be encrypted using a cipher. A simple example would be something like Caesars Cipher... Old temple of Moradin -> Rog whpsoh ri Prudglq (+3 shift along a standard alphabet)
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Mmm... so the clues are not actually intended as clues but parts of the Ancestors notes that point to the location of the pieces of the artifact... classically such parts of a note book would be encrypted using a cipher. A simple example would be something like Caesars Cipher... Old temple of Moradin -> Rog whpsoh ri Prudglq (+3 shift along a standard alphabet)
I feel that things like this draw attention to the fact that we're playing a game. Like, people in the game world don't speak English -- word puzzles based on spelling things in English tend to take me out of it.
Mmm... so the clues are not actually intended as clues but parts of the Ancestors notes that point to the location of the pieces of the artifact... classically such parts of a note book would be encrypted using a cipher. A simple example would be something like Caesars Cipher... Old temple of Moradin -> Rog whpsoh ri Prudglq (+3 shift along a standard alphabet)
The clues don't need to be words. Use pictures, Rebus and music.
Pictures: have a painting that is available to the party, something that they can take with them. Have them encounter the same picture in another location but missing an element, or including one that isn't there. Eg. The picture they have shows a battle where the hero is astride a horse. The picture they find is the same but no one is on the horse. Have the party notice the difference, DC something or other. PCs use chalk, paint, blood. to draw person on the horse. Or alternately, make the "picture" they find a sculpture, with a horse with no rider. A PC climbs on the horse, something happens.
Rebus: use words and pictures to create a simple or complex puzzle to solve. (picture of an eye) + 4 + (picture of open wound) + (picture of Ice cube) - cube = sight for sore eyes.
Have music play when they push a button/step on switch. Have bard play basic song back to open portal. Or press pictograms for words. My favorite is "Never Gonna Give you Up".
Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail.
Plane of fire
You must join the three elements. Then, you need a spark.
*Answer is the formula for black powder: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
Underdark
The journal contains diagrams of systems of mechanical gears. If you assemble the device therein described, you move its levers to produce an interactive map of the underdark.
Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail.
Plane of fire
You must join the three elements. Then, you need a spark.
*Answer is the formula for black powder: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
Underdark
The journal contains diagrams of systems of mechanical gears. If you assemble the device therein described, you move its levers to produce an interactive map of the underdark.
Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail.
Plane of fire
You must join the three elements. Then, you need a spark.
*Answer is the formula for black powder: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
Underdark
The journal contains diagrams of systems of mechanical gears. If you assemble the device therein described, you move its levers to produce an interactive map of the underdark.
Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail.
Plane of fire
You must join the three elements. Then, you need a spark.
*Answer is the formula for black powder: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
Underdark
The journal contains diagrams of systems of mechanical gears. If you assemble the device therein described, you move its levers to produce an interactive map of the underdark.
ChoirOfFire but your perfectly happy with a convoluted reference to another plane in the cosmic wheel model in an ancestors notebook who had the one expressed divine mission to not let anyone ever find the artifact pieces...
Evil_Lynn was wondering how you thought this would play out... one of the characters has the book and studies it for X game time and then you say what? thies passages look interesting "Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail."... "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock"... etc
I'm worried your making intricate "clues" based on the lore of the realms you've read and imagined to which your players and possibly even thier characters have no connection to and you'll end up having to explain your clues or even have the players characters solve them based on the knowledge the character would have but the players might not have a full grasp of... This is potentially quite dissatisfying for players as they may feel they have no action in resolving the clue and denying them of that all important "Glücksmoment"
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
ChoirOfFire but your perfectly happy with a convoluted reference to another plane in the cosmic wheel model in an ancestors notebook who had the one expressed divine mission to not let anyone ever find the artifact pieces...
Evil_Lynn was wondering how you thought this would play out... one of the characters has the book and studies it for X game time and then you say what? thies passages look interesting "Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail."... "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock"... etc
I'm worried your making intricate "clues" based on the lore of the realms you've read and imagined to which your players and possibly even thier characters have no connection to and you'll end up having to explain your clues or even have the players characters solve them based on the knowledge the character would have but the players might not have a full grasp of... This is potentially quite dissatisfying for players as they may feel they have no action in resolving the clue and denying them of that all important "Glücksmoment"
Yeah, that is a concern to a certain extent. I did add the cipher for them to have something they need to decode themselves. And then the clues themselves are going to be a combination. For example, though the idea that the rhyme is connected to the feywild is character knowledge, how they actually make it there will be up to them. I don't actually have a specific solution. If they come up with something that fits, like standig in the center (inbetween) of a doorway (of the inbetween) at midnight (at the inbewteen o'clock) i will allow that. But could be whatever they come up with.
Some of the other clues are also going to be more things that will help them out later. Like, they will face a puzzle they need to figure out and the one thing from this book will be relevant. And then other clues are warnings. But not very clear. So its up to them to figure those out.
JustinInDarkness - I mean, no? I never said that. If you want my genuine opinion on this idea, it's approximately the same as yours. But obviously the important thing in the adventure isn't the clues, really. It's the locations! This is all an excuse to put the adventure in cool, exotic places that you often hear about but don't visit. The setup just needs to feel reasonable *enough,* and to build up hype for the quests. Trying to get overly clever with it is probably a mistake.
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Hello!
Part of my campaign includes finding pieces of an artifact that when put together will give the party the advantage they need to defeat the bbeg.
The pieces were hidden across the planes many centuries ago by one of the PCs' ancestors. They are about to come across his journal where he took notes of how and where to hide each item. The idea is that this is his research as to how to get to each plane. And maybe some notes on what he found there or info he gathered before going to said plane. So there will be some straightforward things, but also a lot of it is shorthand for himself.
The 6 places chosen are
I am good with the first two. Here is what i am doing so that it gives an idea of what im lookig for.
Feywild
"In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock" (this is the clue to figure out how to get to the feywild)
Then some other random notes like. "Titania" "no names, no food" "gifts?" So it can be interpreted different ways.
Im having trouble with clues for the last 4. Clues where the exact plane is obvious without spelling it out. But the details are ambiguous.
Thanks!!!
For the Plane of Fire, I once caused the party to go there by having the (at the time, and fake) BBEG teleport away from them to the plane. As I recall, the spell requires a tube or something from the destination plane. I ruled it was consumable in that it was left behind. The party found this where the enemy left from. Some bit of investigation was useful for them to figure out what happened. This led to a great adventure on the Plane of Fire that resulted in a big part of a larger arc, similar to what you're looking for.
Interesting post Evil_Lynn will update my reply as I muze on it...
Initial thoughts think it help to be clear in one's mind about the motivations of the clue giver ie in this case as I understand it clue giver has an item that can be used to defeat bbeg but is not strong enough to carry out the task so hopes to hide item from bbeg and it's henchmen while leaving a trail (clues) for worthy adventures that are up to the task of defeating bbeg.
Reason for breaking up item? when complete the item is easy for bbeg to locate clue giver is spending much energy keeping it hidden from bbeg before resolving to the plan of break the item up and leaving clues.
Reason for locations of item pieces? possibly split item pieces retain aspects of the whole item ie fire earth feywild etc and thus hiding pieces in respective domains cloaks and better hides them in the noise of that domain...
Clues themselves? their purpose is not to be obtuse but in part to test the worthiness of the adventures, consider they should all have a style particular to the clue giver ie loves anagrams - Temple of Moradin - More Flamed Point... A Implored Foment
figuring out the style can be the real key to solving the clues this has the advantage of giving the players several moments of feeling successful ie once figuring out the more difficult style key they get to open all those juicy clue boxes with relative ease as it were...
you say you have the first two ie
"Feywild "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock" (this is the clue to figure out how to get to the feywild) Then some other random notes like. "Titania" "no names, no food" "gifts?" So it can be interpreted different ways."
Does thia mean you have already given the players those clues? if so fine just means things are locked into that "style" of clue with regards to my thoughts on keeping to one style of clue and if so could you explain your thoughts behind the clue how does it "unlock"?
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
1230 hours?
Your setting has clocks?
Anyway, it sounds like the journal can point the adventurers to the general location of an entrance to the quest location, and from there they have to solve the clues in order to pass through the entrance. Yes? And then each time they go to a new quest location, they need a new entrance?
Or are the entrances obvious and easily passable, but the party simply needs to deduce which ones they're supposed to go through?
Hey!
To answer with more background of the campaign.
This artifact was created thousands of years ago. It cuts off the connection between a god a its worshipers. Effectively reducing the god's overall power. This artifact was used on the god of fate to allow the wizards who created it to manipulate the world to their will. This is all Lore. Not really part of the campaign.
The ancestors of one of the PCs fought a battle to restore the godess of fate. And then was tasked to hide the pieces of the artifact as it could not be destroyed.
The clues the PCs are going to find were not created with the intention of being clues. Its the Ancestor's own personal notes as he was researching the places to hide it.
They are about to find this personal journal with these notes.
The BBEG is asmodeus. And in order to defeat his plan they need to cut him off his worshipers to diminish his power.
Clocks have never been mentioned. But i like the rhyme.
Yes, these clues are more about location and maybe a few more this. I actually thought about it a bit more. Another exmple is "down the river of gems into the throat" (thats an actual location in the sword coast. Which i am gonna make the portal into the plane of earth. And then a few notes saying something like " the 3rd layer after the mirrors" which is a refence to the location within the plane of earth.
And with some checks or investigating they can put that together. And then they can go from there.
Good thoughts! Yeah, im trying to make them all different.
This is basically where they discover the overall locations. So they can then choose where to go first / what to research first.
Mmm... so the clues are not actually intended as clues but parts of the Ancestors notes that point to the location of the pieces of the artifact... classically such parts of a note book would be encrypted using a cipher. A simple example would be something like Caesars Cipher... Old temple of Moradin -> Rog whpsoh ri Prudglq (+3 shift along a standard alphabet)
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I feel that things like this draw attention to the fact that we're playing a game. Like, people in the game world don't speak English -- word puzzles based on spelling things in English tend to take me out of it.
Might just be me though.
Ooh! Great idea to add to the mix
The clues don't need to be words. Use pictures, Rebus and music.
Pictures: have a painting that is available to the party, something that they can take with them. Have them encounter the same picture in another location but missing an element, or including one that isn't there. Eg. The picture they have shows a battle where the hero is astride a horse. The picture they find is the same but no one is on the horse. Have the party notice the difference, DC something or other. PCs use chalk, paint, blood. to draw person on the horse. Or alternately, make the "picture" they find a sculpture, with a horse with no rider. A PC climbs on the horse, something happens.
Rebus: use words and pictures to create a simple or complex puzzle to solve. (picture of an eye) + 4 + (picture of open wound) + (picture of Ice cube) - cube = sight for sore eyes.
Have music play when they push a button/step on switch. Have bard play basic song back to open portal. Or press pictograms for words. My favorite is "Never Gonna Give you Up".
Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail.
You must join the three elements. Then, you need a spark.
*Answer is the formula for black powder: sulfur, potassium nitrate, and charcoal.
The journal contains diagrams of systems of mechanical gears. If you assemble the device therein described, you move its levers to produce an interactive map of the underdark.
these are all cool ideas! got my brain working. Thanks!
Or it's this device: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzjUTPCAF4Y
i don't even know how i would describe that with just words. But thats a cool maze!
Then you can buy one for your table.
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/henryseg
ChoirOfFire but your perfectly happy with a convoluted reference to another plane in the cosmic wheel model in an ancestors notebook who had the one expressed divine mission to not let anyone ever find the artifact pieces...
Evil_Lynn was wondering how you thought this would play out... one of the characters has the book and studies it for X game time and then you say what? thies passages look interesting "Gaze into the navel, and the ouroboros will swallow its tail."... "In the in between at the inbetween o'clock you will find passage without having to knock"... etc
I'm worried your making intricate "clues" based on the lore of the realms you've read and imagined to which your players and possibly even thier characters have no connection to and you'll end up having to explain your clues or even have the players characters solve them based on the knowledge the character would have but the players might not have a full grasp of...
This is potentially quite dissatisfying for players as they may feel they have no action in resolving the clue and denying them of that all important "Glücksmoment"
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Yeah, that is a concern to a certain extent. I did add the cipher for them to have something they need to decode themselves. And then the clues themselves are going to be a combination. For example, though the idea that the rhyme is connected to the feywild is character knowledge, how they actually make it there will be up to them. I don't actually have a specific solution. If they come up with something that fits, like standig in the center (inbetween) of a doorway (of the inbetween) at midnight (at the inbewteen o'clock) i will allow that. But could be whatever they come up with.
Some of the other clues are also going to be more things that will help them out later. Like, they will face a puzzle they need to figure out and the one thing from this book will be relevant. And then other clues are warnings. But not very clear. So its up to them to figure those out.
JustinInDarkness - I mean, no? I never said that. If you want my genuine opinion on this idea, it's approximately the same as yours. But obviously the important thing in the adventure isn't the clues, really. It's the locations! This is all an excuse to put the adventure in cool, exotic places that you often hear about but don't visit. The setup just needs to feel reasonable *enough,* and to build up hype for the quests. Trying to get overly clever with it is probably a mistake.