I am a new DM looking to play for the first time with my small group of 2 players. I see that LMoP is highly praised but DoIP is advertised as being suitable for 1 to 5 players and the DM. LMoP recommends 4 to 6 total. Would it be better to playthrough DoIP as is with the players having sidekicks or put in work to modify LMoP to be suitable for 2 player characters?
Bonus: is it generally ill-advised to play a character as a DM? Or for a small group is it reasonable?
So I've run LMoP twice and started DoIP once. My opinion is that LMoP is the better campaign. It has a pretty cohesive story but still gives the players plenty of chances to make their own decisions, and even to explore outside the scope of the adventure if they want and you allow it. DoIP felt to me like more of a collection of loosely connected quests. You do a bunch of unrelated things and eventually kill the dragon. If it was me, I would do LMoP and either scale it down a little as needed, or add in the sidekicks using the rules from DoIP (it's basically just adding in DMPCs, kinda). However, I know this can sound scary to a new DM. Whatever you choose, this forum is a great place to get help.
For you bonus questions, if you DO play a character as a DM, you want it to be more background. Have your character do what the party needs them too. Don't make any choices for the party. You can use the DMPC to give hints or nudge the party a certain direction, but be careful that you don't take over. Play it as a sidekick, not a hero. And small groups of 2 PCs are fine, you just may have to adjust some encounters.
As you are a brand new DM I will suggest LMoP, out of the 2 I actually prefer DoIP but I am an experienced DM and LMoP is a little too railroady for me, as Trigojon explains DoIP requires a bit more DM effort to turn the various quests into a cohesive story, I have found myself adjusting and tweaking every one, creating a plethora of additional NPC's and adjusting the Orc side story. On the other hand the visual of the White Dragon flying in the crisp clear air, leaving contrails in the sky, telling how the dragon is causing the environment to become colder, bringing Autumn on far too early is a constant image that my players loved ever present as they travelled around the area. Then dealing with the after effects of the dragons attack, finding loved NPCs killed by the dragon, giving them an initial sense of helplessness at being able to take on this dragon and then able eventually to track it down and kill it.
As an aside personally, and this is personal opinion. I don't think anything good comes from an experienced DM playing a character in a campaign, as a new DM you will have far too much to get your head round without also learning how to play a character while trying not to "solve" every problem you make for the party with the hindsight that comes from having all the answers your side of the table.
I just got done running DoIP with two players. There were very few things that needed tweaking but overall it worked out just fine. I have never run LMoP but from what I have heard, the general consensus is that it's one of the best adventure books out there. While both are quite good, I think most people rank LMoP higher. That said, you can't really go wrong with either. Both are written with new players and new DM's in mind. I agree with what trigojon said above, the quests in DoIP as written tend to lack a unifying theme. I found a couple of good online resources which helped to greatly enhance the overall integration and connectivity of the adventure, and to tie in many of the sub quests to the main plot much better. This does take a bit more time investment for the DM I think it but helped a lot.
Regarding balance: One important skill you will want to learn pretty quickly is how to evaluate difficulty of encounters for your party's level and abilities, and also how to adjust "on the fly." For combat, you want to make most fights challenging but avoid an accidental TPK. In general, when starting out it's easier to increase difficulty (if needed) than decrease it. For instance, introducing enemies in waves can be a good technique (two more orcs burst into the room from the west door!) and you can adjust this as needed - if they are having trouble with the fight as-is maybe no more orcs arrive. This can be tricky and some of it just comes with experience, but there are some good online resources for it. This video series is a good place to start:
As to DMPCs, you will hear a ton of different views on that. There are plenty of threads here on the topic. For me, the key is that a NPC or DMPC does not hog the spotlight, and does not take much effort to run. Honestly as a new DM, I would advise against it if you can avoid it. You will have a lot to think about while running a session, and having to control an extra NPC/DMPC makes it even more challenging. It's probably better to let the players each run a "sidekick" character if you are worried about balance. I know DoIP has sidekick options in the book which I think are basically the same as the sidekick rules in Tasha's. If the players are really new, however, running a sidekick in addition to their own character might be too much. In that case you could run it, but be sure to keep it simple. Use a stat block with a couple simple options, and not a character sheet.
IIf the players are really new, however, running a sidekick in addition to their own character might be too much. In that case you could run it, but be sure to keep it simple. Use a stat block with a couple simple options, and not a character sheet.
Exactly. The sidekicks in DoIP are great examples of what a sidekick should look like, even if you just take them to use in a different adventure like LMoP.
Echoing what others have said. I've run LMoP, and it is a perfect starting campaign. Has a bit of everything, and the story is solid. I would do DoIP as the second one. The latter has some great spots to add some homebrew, as well.
Why not both? I’m combining them currently. I do have a small note though: LMoP is relatively linear, and is a little harder to run, but DoIP’s quest board can take away from a different aspect of player agency. My players have come to rely on the board to provide meaning to their journeys.
If you're a first time DM, I wouldn't play a character as well. Not just because it's stressful trying juggle a fully-fledged character and about 20 goblins/NPCs, but because you can unintentionally become the "Main Character." You'd be better off using sidekicks.
If you only have 2 players, give each of them a sidekick. Lacking in magic? Add a spellcaster. Need a thief? Add an expert. Is the party squishy? Add a warrior.
Why not both? I’m combining them currently. I do have a small note though: LMoP is relatively linear, and is a little harder to run, but DoIP’s quest board can take away from a different aspect of player agency. My players have come to rely on the board to provide meaning to their journeys.
I removed the quest board, I really don’t like job boards anyway in RPGs, the quests where instead provided by finding information or talking to people in and around the area.
I think this is a matter of personal taste, I personally prefer the framework of DOIP but when I homebrew I run total sandbox campaigns so the more free form options of DOIP are better for me. LMOP I read through and to run it the way I wanted I would have had to rework it a lot more to delineate the story a bit more. But there are those who prefer this.
What I think it comes down to is the amount of work you have to do as a DM vs what you need/want. DoIP is easier to run because it uses milestones instead of XP tracking and a job board. The story itself is less cohesive but if you like weaving the threads together than that's not a problem. Also, the story isn't bad. It's just a little misleading as most of the story revolves around orcs and a Talos cult. The dragon is really a catalyst. DoIP also has a sidekick system ready to go but you don't have to use them. As a DM, I only control the personality of the sidekick and let the players decide what the sidekick is going to do for their actions. This way I can use the sidekick as a means to give the players extra information but they don't feel like the sidekick is leading the adventure.
LMoP is a better story but offers less freedom (not none just less compared to DoIP) since you need to stick to the story. It also micro manages XP gains. This can be harder for new DMs because they're already learning and tracking a bunch of other things. I also just think it's annoying. I mean who wants to mark down that everyone got 50 XP because they evaded a trap? Now you can go through and convert all the XP to a milestone format, but that's more work for you. If you only have two players, you also have to put in work to downgrade the encounters. Totally possible but again more prep work.
So if you like the XP system, and you don't mind modifying the encounter level, then LMoP is for you. If you like flushing out and connecting story elements better, then DoIP is the way to go (I say that because I did, but you can also just run it as is). I prefer DoIP but both are good starting adventures.
Lost Mines of Phandelver is the more solidly put together adventure. It flows narratively and has branching paths. And it has it all: multiple dungeons and a dragon! It's a short adventure without complicated morality. This is where D&D shines: killing fantasy monsters and being okay with that. It's also designed to be run with five characters and, in fact, includes five pregenerated character sheets. That said, they were an implimentaiton of the rules that were still being fine-tuned prior to the release of the PHB months later. If I were to use them, I'd tweak them slightly. Not all the characters have equipment they should, and the cleric could probably use the Nature Domain instead, but none of this holds the game back. Out of the box, a smaller, savvy group of players can probably get by. But that's not something I'd recommend for a new DM or players.
Dragon of Icespire Peak is almost the opposite. It's fairly well balanced for parties ranging in size from 2-6. Some people think the some of the included monsters, like the ochre jellies, are too tough, but smart rookies will realize they can "kite" them by relying on ranged attacks. If you're worried about numbers, the included sidekicks can help pad out the adventure. Maybe let them each have one, but keep the numbers for a 2-3 player group, and they'll do fine. The booklet does lack a solid narrative structure; opting for a quest board instead of organically building a plot. In practice, it almost turns into an Adventure Towns-style campaign. Think how the Winchesters would always roll up into a new town each week on Supernatural and you're on the right track.
That said, there is a theme to DoIP. Cryovain is a new apex predator introduced to the region, and their presence is throwing everything out of whack. It has driven manticores and orcs down from the mountains. Those orcs, in turn, rippled across the countryside. Some established a camp in an abandoned shrine; displacing some wererats who, likewise, displaced some dwarves. Others took revenge on a retired sheriff who overpoliced them. And still more clung to their old religion, falling in with a cult dedicated to Talos─a deity who has sometimes been an aspect of Grummsh One-Eye. It's not expressly spelled out, which I find disappointing, but there's actually a lot under the hood of this adventure. But depending on the politics of everyone involved, you may not wish to draw attention to them.
There's really no wrong way to go. I just though you should get my 2 cents before committing.
I am running a combination of them as my first campaign. LMoP seems like the easiest to start with both as DM and player precisely because it is linear but my group started with 3 players and they almost got TPK several times and did twice. The encounters can be balanced to adjest for that (there is actually a site specifically to adjust them, but I am on my phone right now and I don't have the adress) but still, if the group is small you should look out for that. You could always crib some sidekick from DoIP as well to let them boost their numbers.
On the other hand, the quests in DoIP seem more forgiving to new players, though the lack of unifying story might lead them to wonder why are they doing them.
#1: Should you run Lost Mines of Phandelver or Dragon of Icespire Peaks? Run both. If you look at the quest materials and location, they are at the same place, it gives your players plenty to do in a sandobx for the region. You generally can have a number of quests up and as they progress take them down by a competing adventurers group being in Phandalin. The core quest for Phandalin is decent enough to take you to level 4-5 and from there you can segway it into the rest of the Dragons of Icespire Peaks later content taking your players to 13. I suggest you read both of the adventurers and determine what group you want the Spider to be tied to? Most likely have him go with the Undead.
#2: Should the DM run a PC, known as DMPC: No, do NOT do that. If a player needs help for group size, add in a Sidekick to the player (if you go to Extras on the Character sheet you can easily add them to the players). You get an extra tab after you add in the sidekick and when you level them you increase their level from there. When you run a DMPC you know it all, you spoil content and it really irks and I mean irks a lot of players. You will also have players asking the DMPC to spoil content as well with "hints". Its a lose lose situation. If you feel you need more, go to the LFG and add 2 more to the group.
Count me in the "Run both" camp. You have to do a little bit of work up front, but then it's a wonderful larger adventure. Things to consider:
Characters will likely go beyond 5th level with the combined content, so some encounters are going to need adjustments to keep them interesting and fun.
I make Venomfang more active and involved, that way there can be a battle for territorial control between the two dragons - and the player characters are useful proxies. Each dragon might stop and consider "Can I use these fools to solve that other dragon problem I have?"
I start with the traditional LMoP opening and trigger DoIP as a fun event once people settle into Phandalin. That way they know the Townmaster before he goes full quest-board and lockdown.
This gives instant utility to some of the magical weapons and gear found in LMoP. Exiting Tressendar Manor gives them a few new toys - two dragons is all the more motivation to go find more in the lost mine... and then decide the fate of the region.
The factions are suddenly much more motivated to be interesting. The Lords Alliance, Harpers, etc. are now more motivate to recruit and utilize capable adventurers. They don't need a dragon (or two) taking control of this region.
I would recommend, for Lost Mines, instead of scaling down an encounter, instead scale up your players. Get them to level 3 as soon as possible. Don't be afraid to scale encounters, but level 3 gives the characters a lot more survivability: they're unlikely to be downed in a lucky hit or two. I'm currently running LMoP for 3 players. I've run it for 3-4 players in the past. It's entirely do-able. Even with two players. A trick for scaling down opponents is to use their minimum hitpoint values, if the players are having a tough time. You can also change the HP values of in combat even. Like if you decide to make all Goblins have their minimum (2 hp) and then you feel like the combats are going too quickly, then you can always roll 2d6 (a Goblin's dynamic hitpoint pool) and that gives you a new hitpoint pool (edit: don't change the damage done to the enemies-- only their max hp). Or if the enemies are too hard to hit, you can (if you didn't mention it before) decide that maybe this enemy isn't using a shield or has worse armour.
The important thing about running a game like this is that you don't let players see behind the curtain. That way they think everything you do is by design. If you have them think that, then you are free to tailor the content on the fly.
Greetings,
I am a new DM looking to play for the first time with my small group of 2 players. I see that LMoP is highly praised but DoIP is advertised as being suitable for 1 to 5 players and the DM. LMoP recommends 4 to 6 total. Would it be better to playthrough DoIP as is with the players having sidekicks or put in work to modify LMoP to be suitable for 2 player characters?
Bonus: is it generally ill-advised to play a character as a DM? Or for a small group is it reasonable?
So I've run LMoP twice and started DoIP once. My opinion is that LMoP is the better campaign. It has a pretty cohesive story but still gives the players plenty of chances to make their own decisions, and even to explore outside the scope of the adventure if they want and you allow it. DoIP felt to me like more of a collection of loosely connected quests. You do a bunch of unrelated things and eventually kill the dragon. If it was me, I would do LMoP and either scale it down a little as needed, or add in the sidekicks using the rules from DoIP (it's basically just adding in DMPCs, kinda). However, I know this can sound scary to a new DM. Whatever you choose, this forum is a great place to get help.
For you bonus questions, if you DO play a character as a DM, you want it to be more background. Have your character do what the party needs them too. Don't make any choices for the party. You can use the DMPC to give hints or nudge the party a certain direction, but be careful that you don't take over. Play it as a sidekick, not a hero. And small groups of 2 PCs are fine, you just may have to adjust some encounters.
As you are a brand new DM I will suggest LMoP, out of the 2 I actually prefer DoIP but I am an experienced DM and LMoP is a little too railroady for me, as Trigojon explains DoIP requires a bit more DM effort to turn the various quests into a cohesive story, I have found myself adjusting and tweaking every one, creating a plethora of additional NPC's and adjusting the Orc side story. On the other hand the visual of the White Dragon flying in the crisp clear air, leaving contrails in the sky, telling how the dragon is causing the environment to become colder, bringing Autumn on far too early is a constant image that my players loved ever present as they travelled around the area. Then dealing with the after effects of the dragons attack, finding loved NPCs killed by the dragon, giving them an initial sense of helplessness at being able to take on this dragon and then able eventually to track it down and kill it.
As an aside personally, and this is personal opinion. I don't think anything good comes from an experienced DM playing a character in a campaign, as a new DM you will have far too much to get your head round without also learning how to play a character while trying not to "solve" every problem you make for the party with the hindsight that comes from having all the answers your side of the table.
I just got done running DoIP with two players. There were very few things that needed tweaking but overall it worked out just fine. I have never run LMoP but from what I have heard, the general consensus is that it's one of the best adventure books out there. While both are quite good, I think most people rank LMoP higher. That said, you can't really go wrong with either. Both are written with new players and new DM's in mind. I agree with what trigojon said above, the quests in DoIP as written tend to lack a unifying theme. I found a couple of good online resources which helped to greatly enhance the overall integration and connectivity of the adventure, and to tie in many of the sub quests to the main plot much better. This does take a bit more time investment for the DM I think it but helped a lot.
Regarding balance: One important skill you will want to learn pretty quickly is how to evaluate difficulty of encounters for your party's level and abilities, and also how to adjust "on the fly." For combat, you want to make most fights challenging but avoid an accidental TPK. In general, when starting out it's easier to increase difficulty (if needed) than decrease it. For instance, introducing enemies in waves can be a good technique (two more orcs burst into the room from the west door!) and you can adjust this as needed - if they are having trouble with the fight as-is maybe no more orcs arrive. This can be tricky and some of it just comes with experience, but there are some good online resources for it. This video series is a good place to start:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlUk42GiU2guNzWBzxn7hs8MaV7ELLCP_
As to DMPCs, you will hear a ton of different views on that. There are plenty of threads here on the topic. For me, the key is that a NPC or DMPC does not hog the spotlight, and does not take much effort to run. Honestly as a new DM, I would advise against it if you can avoid it. You will have a lot to think about while running a session, and having to control an extra NPC/DMPC makes it even more challenging. It's probably better to let the players each run a "sidekick" character if you are worried about balance. I know DoIP has sidekick options in the book which I think are basically the same as the sidekick rules in Tasha's. If the players are really new, however, running a sidekick in addition to their own character might be too much. In that case you could run it, but be sure to keep it simple. Use a stat block with a couple simple options, and not a character sheet.
Exactly. The sidekicks in DoIP are great examples of what a sidekick should look like, even if you just take them to use in a different adventure like LMoP.
Echoing what others have said. I've run LMoP, and it is a perfect starting campaign. Has a bit of everything, and the story is solid. I would do DoIP as the second one. The latter has some great spots to add some homebrew, as well.
Why not both? I’m combining them currently. I do have a small note though: LMoP is relatively linear, and is a little harder to run, but DoIP’s quest board can take away from a different aspect of player agency. My players have come to rely on the board to provide meaning to their journeys.
Lost Mines is a way better adventure.
If you're a first time DM, I wouldn't play a character as well. Not just because it's stressful trying juggle a fully-fledged character and about 20 goblins/NPCs, but because you can unintentionally become the "Main Character." You'd be better off using sidekicks.
If you only have 2 players, give each of them a sidekick. Lacking in magic? Add a spellcaster. Need a thief? Add an expert. Is the party squishy? Add a warrior.
I removed the quest board, I really don’t like job boards anyway in RPGs, the quests where instead provided by finding information or talking to people in and around the area.
I think this is a matter of personal taste, I personally prefer the framework of DOIP but when I homebrew I run total sandbox campaigns so the more free form options of DOIP are better for me. LMOP I read through and to run it the way I wanted I would have had to rework it a lot more to delineate the story a bit more. But there are those who prefer this.
What I think it comes down to is the amount of work you have to do as a DM vs what you need/want. DoIP is easier to run because it uses milestones instead of XP tracking and a job board. The story itself is less cohesive but if you like weaving the threads together than that's not a problem. Also, the story isn't bad. It's just a little misleading as most of the story revolves around orcs and a Talos cult. The dragon is really a catalyst. DoIP also has a sidekick system ready to go but you don't have to use them. As a DM, I only control the personality of the sidekick and let the players decide what the sidekick is going to do for their actions. This way I can use the sidekick as a means to give the players extra information but they don't feel like the sidekick is leading the adventure.
LMoP is a better story but offers less freedom (not none just less compared to DoIP) since you need to stick to the story. It also micro manages XP gains. This can be harder for new DMs because they're already learning and tracking a bunch of other things. I also just think it's annoying. I mean who wants to mark down that everyone got 50 XP because they evaded a trap? Now you can go through and convert all the XP to a milestone format, but that's more work for you. If you only have two players, you also have to put in work to downgrade the encounters. Totally possible but again more prep work.
So if you like the XP system, and you don't mind modifying the encounter level, then LMoP is for you. If you like flushing out and connecting story elements better, then DoIP is the way to go (I say that because I did, but you can also just run it as is). I prefer DoIP but both are good starting adventures.
Lost Mines of Phandelver is the more solidly put together adventure. It flows narratively and has branching paths. And it has it all: multiple dungeons and a dragon! It's a short adventure without complicated morality. This is where D&D shines: killing fantasy monsters and being okay with that. It's also designed to be run with five characters and, in fact, includes five pregenerated character sheets. That said, they were an implimentaiton of the rules that were still being fine-tuned prior to the release of the PHB months later. If I were to use them, I'd tweak them slightly. Not all the characters have equipment they should, and the cleric could probably use the Nature Domain instead, but none of this holds the game back. Out of the box, a smaller, savvy group of players can probably get by. But that's not something I'd recommend for a new DM or players.
Dragon of Icespire Peak is almost the opposite. It's fairly well balanced for parties ranging in size from 2-6. Some people think the some of the included monsters, like the ochre jellies, are too tough, but smart rookies will realize they can "kite" them by relying on ranged attacks. If you're worried about numbers, the included sidekicks can help pad out the adventure. Maybe let them each have one, but keep the numbers for a 2-3 player group, and they'll do fine. The booklet does lack a solid narrative structure; opting for a quest board instead of organically building a plot. In practice, it almost turns into an Adventure Towns-style campaign. Think how the Winchesters would always roll up into a new town each week on Supernatural and you're on the right track.
That said, there is a theme to DoIP. Cryovain is a new apex predator introduced to the region, and their presence is throwing everything out of whack. It has driven manticores and orcs down from the mountains. Those orcs, in turn, rippled across the countryside. Some established a camp in an abandoned shrine; displacing some wererats who, likewise, displaced some dwarves. Others took revenge on a retired sheriff who overpoliced them. And still more clung to their old religion, falling in with a cult dedicated to Talos─a deity who has sometimes been an aspect of Grummsh One-Eye. It's not expressly spelled out, which I find disappointing, but there's actually a lot under the hood of this adventure. But depending on the politics of everyone involved, you may not wish to draw attention to them.
There's really no wrong way to go. I just though you should get my 2 cents before committing.
I am running a combination of them as my first campaign. LMoP seems like the easiest to start with both as DM and player precisely because it is linear but my group started with 3 players and they almost got TPK several times and did twice. The encounters can be balanced to adjest for that (there is actually a site specifically to adjust them, but I am on my phone right now and I don't have the adress) but still, if the group is small you should look out for that. You could always crib some sidekick from DoIP as well to let them boost their numbers.
On the other hand, the quests in DoIP seem more forgiving to new players, though the lack of unifying story might lead them to wonder why are they doing them.
#1: Should you run Lost Mines of Phandelver or Dragon of Icespire Peaks? Run both. If you look at the quest materials and location, they are at the same place, it gives your players plenty to do in a sandobx for the region. You generally can have a number of quests up and as they progress take them down by a competing adventurers group being in Phandalin. The core quest for Phandalin is decent enough to take you to level 4-5 and from there you can segway it into the rest of the Dragons of Icespire Peaks later content taking your players to 13. I suggest you read both of the adventurers and determine what group you want the Spider to be tied to? Most likely have him go with the Undead.
#2: Should the DM run a PC, known as DMPC: No, do NOT do that. If a player needs help for group size, add in a Sidekick to the player (if you go to Extras on the Character sheet you can easily add them to the players). You get an extra tab after you add in the sidekick and when you level them you increase their level from there. When you run a DMPC you know it all, you spoil content and it really irks and I mean irks a lot of players. You will also have players asking the DMPC to spoil content as well with "hints". Its a lose lose situation. If you feel you need more, go to the LFG and add 2 more to the group.
Count me in the "Run both" camp. You have to do a little bit of work up front, but then it's a wonderful larger adventure. Things to consider:
I would recommend, for Lost Mines, instead of scaling down an encounter, instead scale up your players. Get them to level 3 as soon as possible. Don't be afraid to scale encounters, but level 3 gives the characters a lot more survivability: they're unlikely to be downed in a lucky hit or two. I'm currently running LMoP for 3 players. I've run it for 3-4 players in the past. It's entirely do-able. Even with two players. A trick for scaling down opponents is to use their minimum hitpoint values, if the players are having a tough time. You can also change the HP values of in combat even. Like if you decide to make all Goblins have their minimum (2 hp) and then you feel like the combats are going too quickly, then you can always roll 2d6 (a Goblin's dynamic hitpoint pool) and that gives you a new hitpoint pool (edit: don't change the damage done to the enemies-- only their max hp). Or if the enemies are too hard to hit, you can (if you didn't mention it before) decide that maybe this enemy isn't using a shield or has worse armour.
The important thing about running a game like this is that you don't let players see behind the curtain. That way they think everything you do is by design. If you have them think that, then you are free to tailor the content on the fly.