There's a particular boss encounter in Chapter 3 of the paid adventure Hoard of the Dragon Queen. The boss is CR 4 and each of the two minions is CR 2. For a party of 4 level 3 characters, as the module expects, the deadly threshold is 1600 XP. Although the encounter yields 2000 XP, the adjusted XP value of this encounter is 4000 XP since there are three creatures. At a glance, it seems to me that the developers forgot about the difficulty multiplier and thus made a devastating encounter.
But now that I look at it again, the minions each deal only an average of 9 damage per turn (no special effects to compensate), whereas the CR 4 boss deals an whopping average of 36 damage per turn and can potentially kill a character on the FIRST TURN. And I remember that there's a rule in DMG chapter 3 where creatures don't count (towards the number of creatures that determines the XP multiplier) if their CR's are low compared to the rest of the group. Is this what's happening here, or did the developers really forget about the multiplier? Or is this an intentionally cruel encounter because Hoard of the Dragon Queen is meant to be tough as nails?
There's a couple things going on. First of all, it's quite possible to go well over the Deadly budget and still have a winnable encounter, and in fact published adventures do so moderately frequently. Secondly, the DMG doesn't handle mixed CR very well. Third, the numerical adjustment for 3 should probably actually be around 1.75, but that's too much math. Fourth, CRs are frequently pretty iffy in the first place.
Langdedrosa Cyanwrath goes for a one on one with who ever fought last time and the two plus berserkers hold back unless the other party members intervene... maybe that messes with CR rather, guess if the scenario goes that way you have to consider if one on one is totally OP can't remember if characters get a milestone level up between those two encounters with Langdedrosa Cyanwrath.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
^--------- This is the key to the balance for the encounter(s).
First time they meet, the one-v-one is supposed to end with the PC on the ground with one death save from an attack from Langdedrosa. There are other possibilites, but this is the "most common one".
Second time they meet, in the temple/brood chamber(in the cave at the camp...) Langdedrosa is supposed to call out the same player again, but this time, the PC (should be) level 3-4. If the PC is a fighter-type (Barb works too), they should be pretty evenly matched. And just like the first time they met, Langdedrosa's minions are not to join the fight of honor, unless the other PCs intervene. Then, and only then, does it turn into a battle royale.
Consider this to be two separate encounters within the same grid-space. One opponent, then the other. And only if there is intervention does everyone get envolved in the massacre of the PCs.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
^--------- This is the key to the balance for the encounter(s).
First time they meet, the one-v-one is supposed to end with the PC on the ground with one death save from an attack from Langdedrosa. There are other possibilites, but this is the "most common one".
Second time they meet, in the temple/brood chamber(in the cave at the camp...) Langdedrosa is supposed to call out the same player again, but this time, the PC (should be) level 3-4. If the PC is a fighter-type (Barb works too), they should be pretty evenly matched. And just like the first time they met, Langdedrosa's minions are not to join the fight of honor, unless the other PCs intervene. Then, and only then, does it turn into a battle royale.
Consider this to be two separate encounters within the same grid-space. One opponent, then the other. And only if there is intervention does everyone get envolved in the massacre of the PCs.
That sounds even more impossible! One level 3 character has a deadly threshold of 400 XP, and Cyanwrath in that case would be an adjusted 1650 XP!
In any case, I don't plan on having Cyanwrath fail to kill someone in Chapter 1, since it mitigates the impact of the sacrifice by the given character (I'll make it obvious that it's an unwinnable fight, and if a PC still steps forward, death is almost certain). Which means both berserkers will likely be fighting from the start.
" I don't plan on having Cyanwrath fail to kill someone in Chapter 1, since it mitigates the impact of the sacrifice by the given character " but...
the adventure says in chapter 1 the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll failure on a character... A team of healers with healer’s kits and +4 bonuses to Wisdom (Medicine) checks attend to the wounded or dying character, and Governor Nighthill gratefully offers two potions of healing to the wounded character.
The players character is supposed to survive as written... I mean if you gonna change things you have to balance those changes out later on no?!? Personally I always change stuff up in adventures but I have structure to cling onto and colour in as it were
I guess this a sort of choices have consequences situation really if the players didn't stand up and be heroic at their first encounter with Cyanwrath the second will be all the harder
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I'll say this much... CR is notoriously not a reliable measure of how challenging something actually will be. I've found I need to pretty consistently face my party of 4 with creatures of CR at least 2 levels higher than their level to get any kind of challenge.
" I don't plan on having Cyanwrath fail to kill someone in Chapter 1, since it mitigates the impact of the sacrifice by the given character " but...
the adventure says in chapter 1 the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll failure on a character... A team of healers with healer’s kits and +4 bonuses to Wisdom (Medicine) checks attend to the wounded or dying character, and Governor Nighthill gratefully offers two potions of healing to the wounded character.
The players character is supposed to survive as written... I mean if you gonna change things you have to balance those changes out later on no?!? Personally I always change stuff up in adventures but I have structure to cling onto and colour in as it were
I guess this a sort of choices have consequences situation really if the players didn't stand up and be heroic at their first encounter with Cyanwrath the second will be all the harder
As I already pointed out, having one level 3 character fight Cyanwrath alone is twice as hard compared to 4 level 3 characters fighting all three enemies. It is in the players' best interest NOT to 1v1 Cyanwrath either way.
I don't know I could see there being some advantage to letting things start as a 1 on 1 and then suddenly doing a smack down with the entire party on Cyanwrath...
I think it's supposed to be a tough memorable fight one were the player gets some revenge satisfaction,
your the DM and how you run your table is how you run your table, at my table I adjust things so my players feel the challenge and have fun...
that said I think HotDQ being the first adventure did have quite a few issues with CR balance most notoriously originally the 4 assassins now veterans in chapter 4 no room at the inn
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The instructions are pretty clear: Chapter 1 - "Cyanwrath is the likely winner of this match, whether he's fighting Sergeant Markguth or a character. When his foe drops, he strikes one more time; the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll failure on a character." I might suggest that the intent would be to set the stage for later. Going directly against this direction, after having been re-assured that this is how it might work best will definitely kill a PC. The effect that you're trying to achieve may not be the one you get.
Chapter 3 - "If the character beat the odds in Greenest and won the fight, you can paraphrase to reflect that. As soon as he finishes speaking, he attacks. As long as none of the characters intervene, Cyanwrath's group knows better than to interfere in his one-on-one matches. If the characters gang up on Cyanwrath or one of his guards, or try to leave the chamber, the guards attack" Again, not sure why you're so adamant that this has to be a gang match, it's definitely not written this way. Echoing earlier, the effect here may not be what you intend.
As far as the Encounter Balance argument that you pose, Encounter Balance is a probability system, not one of defined solidity.
Deadly. A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat.
(Emphasis mine) These terms are not finite. They express what will probably happen. The entire system hinges on 6-8 encounters per day or a total xp budget for the day, which for 4 level 3 PCs should be in the 4800xp area. (Well within the bounds of possibility for this one.) The tactics, environment and a multitude of other variables go into deciding the outcome. Namely the random arbiters of fate: the dice. What you say is accurate when you state that the xp thresholds are well out of bounds, for the deadly threshold if your party has already had 5 to 7 encounters for the adventuring day, but they aren't including you, the DM, padding the blows of the opponent when neccessary to make the fight feel exciting. The PCs have always had the option of ganging up on Langdedrosa and attempting to kill him in chapter 1. They still have that option now.
You've asked if the developers forgot something, but why are you so willing to ignore what they haven't forgotten?
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Chapter 3 - "If the character beat the odds in Greenest and won the fight, you can paraphrase to reflect that. As soon as he finishes speaking, he attacks. As long as none of the characters intervene, Cyanwrath's group knows better than to interfere in his one-on-one matches. If the characters gang up on Cyanwrath or one of his guards, or try to leave the chamber, the guards attack" Again, not sure why you're so adamant that this has to be a gang match, it's definitely not written this way.
No, it's written as something with worse odds than a gang match. 4 level 3 vs 1x CR 4 and 2x CR 2 is a way more winnable fight than 1 level 3 vs 1 CR 4.
It was never my intention to bring the Chapter 3 1v1 situation into this discussion, since the calculated difficulty of that is another can of worms. As is the potential for Frulam Mondath to join in. My actual question is this:
Assuming our 4 heroes are up against Cyanwrath and her 2 Langdedrosa Cyanwrath and her 2 berserkers, the encounter exceeds the party's deadly threshold twice over. Did the developers:
A) do that on purpose because they don't need to rely on the adjusted XP system to balance the encounter,
B) forget to apply the x2 multiplier that 3 to 6 enemies would impose, or
C) use the x1 multiplier instead having determined the berserkers to not be difficult enough?
There's a couple things going on. First of all, it's quite possible to go well over the Deadly budget and still have a winnable encounter, and in fact published adventures do so moderately frequently. Secondly, the DMG doesn't handle mixed CR very well. Third, the numerical adjustment for 3 should probably actually be around 1.75, but that's too much math. Fourth, CRs are frequently pretty iffy in the first place.
Judging from this earlier reply, it seems that A is the answer to my question. I needed to be sure because I've heard about HotDQ having balance issues since it's an earlier adventure.
Judging from this earlier reply, it seems that A is the answer to my question. I needed to be sure because I've heard about HotDQ having balance issues since it's an earlier adventure.
There's no real way to distinguish 'deliberate' from 'mistake' other than whether in practice it's too hard. Compared to Curse of Strahd, which in areas suggested for level 4 have potential encounters rated at 21,600 xp and 17,400 xp (deadly budget: 2,000) that encounter seems positively balanced (both encounters can be avoided, but there isn't terribly much warning that PCs should do so).
Odds of winning are a probability, granted. Determining whether or not the fight is winnable before an attempt isn't what the encounter balance system does. There is also an opportunity for the players to turn this into a social interaction instead of the DM forcing combat. It may be miniscule, but is still an opportunity.
Yes, the option is written into the encounter description. It's a clear "if-then" path. Two of them actually. The players have a choice in this encounter, one path might be more successful than another, but that's the point of making a choice. The decision needs to matter, there needs be consequence for choice, both good and bad.
Edit: Take an example from the Adventuring Day XP chart used to determine the amount of xp that a particular PC can expect to earn in an adventuing day (end of one long rest to the end of the next long rest). And would you look at that... a level 3 adventurer can expect to be able to handle 1,200 xp for a day. What's the expected xp of a CR 4 creature? XP by CR table suggests 1,100. This'll be a tough fight, no doubt, but still a possibility of a win.
Is this a mistake, not from what I see. Did the designer forget something, again my answer is no. It's merely another method to determine the probability of success that the party, or in this case, a character, might have.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
While a 1v1 the PC has a chance of winning the odds are very much stacked against it if Langdedrosa goes all out. As Langdedrosa is a fighter lets compare them with a level 3 fighter great weapon fighter with +4 str and +3 con (in reality few will have stats that good.
Langdedrosa has 57 hit points, the player if they take average has 31, even if we add second wind to the player that only boosts him to 40. It is unlikely the player has yet obtained splint armor so unless their offensive output is reduced by going sword and board they will likely have lower AC. Great weapon fighting will increase the players damage by about 1 but Langdedrosa has multi-attack so has alsmost twice the damage output.
Champion moight not be the best fighter subclass so the player might have subclass features better than a crit on a 19 but that is nothing like enough to make up for the lower HT and lack of multi attack.
If Landgredrorsa wants the PC dead and wins initiative he will Action surge on the first round, use his lightnigh breath and take 2 attacks. A failure on the dex save wil mean one hit is likely to be enough to knock the fighter unconcious before he even gets a turn (and a success would mean he would still be likely to be unconcious if both attacks hit). If the PC wins initiatve the best they can hope for is to take out about half of Langderosa's hit points before his onslought in return. If a party only has one encounter per day with an XP based aroounf the adventuring day XP they will have a very hard time because they will not be able to use a whole days resurces n the fight (either due to lack of rounds or not being able ot use short rest based features more than once or not being ble ot use hit dice to recover hit points)
Edit: Take an example from the Adventuring Day XP chart used to determine the amount of xp that a particular PC can expect to earn in an adventuing day (end of one long rest to the end of the next long rest). And would you look at that... a level 3 adventurer can expect to be able to handle 1,200 xp for a day. What's the expected xp of a CR 4 creature? XP by CR table suggests 1,100. This'll be a tough fight, no doubt, but still a possibility of a win.
Adjusted xp is 1,650 (party size less than 3), and even that kind of underestimates the difficulty, not to mention that using an entire daily budget in one encounter is generally a kill.
I'm glad that you can see that generally isn't definitely. Also like to point out that you've conceded that you can go well beyond suggested thresholds and still have winnable encounters, and still argue that this is overly difficult. Maybe I'm catching a mixed message?
Also, what you are continuing to refer to is not the Adventuring Day budget that I pointed out in my quoted response. There is no adjustment for party size in the Adventuring Day method.
The rest of the party will still have their 3,600xp to chew through amongst the three of them.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'm glad that you can see that generally isn't definitely. Also like to point out that you've conceded that you can go well beyond suggested thresholds and still have winnable encounters, and still argue that this is overly difficult. Maybe I'm catching a mixed message?
Also, what you are continuing to refer to is not the Adventuring Day budget that I pointed out in my quoted response. There is no adjustment for party size in the Adventuring Day method.
I said way back in post #2 that you can exceed the Deadly budget by a lot and still have something winnable; usually a practical limit is around 200%. The solo fight option is up at 400%.
The adjustment for party size is in the adjusted xp of an encounter: if the party size is less than 3, increase the modifier for number of enemies by one step (I would increase by 2 steps for a party size of 1, but that's not RAW). That means you multiply adjusted xp by 1.5 for single combat. The adventuring day method is based on adjusted xp.
The adjustment for party size is to the adjusted xp value of a challenge.
I'm glad that you can see that generally isn't definitely. Also like to point out that you've conceded that you can go well beyond suggested thresholds and still have winnable encounters, and still argue that this is overly difficult. Maybe I'm catching a mixed message?
Also, what you are continuing to refer to is not the Adventuring Day budget that I pointed out in my quoted response. There is no adjustment for party size in the Adventuring Day method.
I said way back in post #2 that you can exceed the Deadly budget by a lot and still have something winnable; usually a practical limit is around 200%. The solo fight option is up at 400%.
Help me out with this one? I'm not finding this as a suggestion in the DMG. Maybe post a link so that I might be able to find this? By your estimation, the solo fight would encompass a creature of around 1,600xp?
The adjustment for party size is in the adjusted xp of an encounter: if the party size is less than 3, increase the modifier for number of enemies by one step (I would increase by 2 steps for a party size of 1, but that's not RAW). That means you multiply adjusted xp by 1.5 for single combat. The adventuring day method is based on adjusted xp.
The adjustment for party size is to the adjusted xp value of a challenge.
I'm familiar with this method. And it's not what I'm referring to. You're pointing out Party Size which points out, first sentence -
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.
Three paragraphs later there is another method for determining how much the party can endure in an Adventuring Day, which I'm suggesting might serve as an explanation for the supposed oversight by the authors of this encounter.
Regardless, this entire adventure is brutal as written. Even moreso if the DM plays the monsters as if they were determined to win. Which I think they should be.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'm familiar with this method. And it's not what I'm referring to. You're pointing out Party Size which points out, first sentence -
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.
Three paragraphs later there is another method for determining how much the party can endure in an Adventuring Day, which I'm suggesting might serve as an explanation for the supposed oversight by the authors of this encounter.
That's not 'another' method. That's part of the same method. The way it works is that you are expected to have multiple encounters (designed using the rules for building encounters) with a total adjusted xp over the course of the day equal to the budget for the adventuring days (which is a big chunk of why encounters built using the rules feel easy: they're designed to be part of a full day).
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There's a particular boss encounter in Chapter 3 of the paid adventure Hoard of the Dragon Queen. The boss is CR 4 and each of the two minions is CR 2. For a party of 4 level 3 characters, as the module expects, the deadly threshold is 1600 XP. Although the encounter yields 2000 XP, the adjusted XP value of this encounter is 4000 XP since there are three creatures. At a glance, it seems to me that the developers forgot about the difficulty multiplier and thus made a devastating encounter.
But now that I look at it again, the minions each deal only an average of 9 damage per turn (no special effects to compensate), whereas the CR 4 boss deals an whopping average of 36 damage per turn and can potentially kill a character on the FIRST TURN. And I remember that there's a rule in DMG chapter 3 where creatures don't count (towards the number of creatures that determines the XP multiplier) if their CR's are low compared to the rest of the group. Is this what's happening here, or did the developers really forget about the multiplier? Or is this an intentionally cruel encounter because Hoard of the Dragon Queen is meant to be tough as nails?
There's a couple things going on. First of all, it's quite possible to go well over the Deadly budget and still have a winnable encounter, and in fact published adventures do so moderately frequently. Secondly, the DMG doesn't handle mixed CR very well. Third, the numerical adjustment for 3 should probably actually be around 1.75, but that's too much math. Fourth, CRs are frequently pretty iffy in the first place.
I changed the encounter alot when I ran it but...
as I read it chapter 3 area 9
Langdedrosa Cyanwrath goes for a one on one with who ever fought last time and the two plus berserkers hold back unless the other party members intervene... maybe that messes with CR rather, guess if the scenario goes that way you have to consider if one on one is totally OP can't remember if characters get a milestone level up between those two encounters with Langdedrosa Cyanwrath.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
^--------- This is the key to the balance for the encounter(s).
First time they meet, the one-v-one is supposed to end with the PC on the ground with one death save from an attack from Langdedrosa. There are other possibilites, but this is the "most common one".
Second time they meet, in the temple/brood chamber(in the cave at the camp...) Langdedrosa is supposed to call out the same player again, but this time, the PC (should be) level 3-4. If the PC is a fighter-type (Barb works too), they should be pretty evenly matched. And just like the first time they met, Langdedrosa's minions are not to join the fight of honor, unless the other PCs intervene. Then, and only then, does it turn into a battle royale.
Consider this to be two separate encounters within the same grid-space. One opponent, then the other. And only if there is intervention does everyone get envolved in the massacre of the PCs.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
That sounds even more impossible! One level 3 character has a deadly threshold of 400 XP, and Cyanwrath in that case would be an adjusted 1650 XP!
In any case, I don't plan on having Cyanwrath fail to kill someone in Chapter 1, since it mitigates the impact of the sacrifice by the given character (I'll make it obvious that it's an unwinnable fight, and if a PC still steps forward, death is almost certain). Which means both berserkers will likely be fighting from the start.
" I don't plan on having Cyanwrath fail to kill someone in Chapter 1, since it mitigates the impact of the sacrifice by the given character " but...
the adventure says in chapter 1 the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll failure on a character... A team of healers with healer’s kits and +4 bonuses to Wisdom (Medicine) checks attend to the wounded or dying character, and Governor Nighthill gratefully offers two potions of healing to the wounded character.
The players character is supposed to survive as written... I mean if you gonna change things you have to balance those changes out later on no?!?
Personally I always change stuff up in adventures but I have structure to cling onto and colour in as it were
I guess this a sort of choices have consequences situation really if the players didn't stand up and be heroic at their first encounter with Cyanwrath the second will be all the harder
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I'll say this much... CR is notoriously not a reliable measure of how challenging something actually will be. I've found I need to pretty consistently face my party of 4 with creatures of CR at least 2 levels higher than their level to get any kind of challenge.
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As I already pointed out, having one level 3 character fight Cyanwrath alone is twice as hard compared to 4 level 3 characters fighting all three enemies. It is in the players' best interest NOT to 1v1 Cyanwrath either way.
I don't know I could see there being some advantage to letting things start as a 1 on 1 and then suddenly doing a smack down with the entire party on Cyanwrath...
I think it's supposed to be a tough memorable fight one were the player gets some revenge satisfaction,
your the DM and how you run your table is how you run your table, at my table I adjust things so my players feel the challenge and have fun...
that said I think HotDQ being the first adventure did have quite a few issues with CR balance most notoriously originally the 4 assassins now veterans in chapter 4 no room at the inn
I would see how it goes and follow SlyFlourishes's advice on the Dials of Monster Difficulty
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The instructions are pretty clear: Chapter 1 - "Cyanwrath is the likely winner of this match, whether he's fighting Sergeant Markguth or a character. When his foe drops, he strikes one more time; the last blow kills Markguth or inflicts one death roll failure on a character." I might suggest that the intent would be to set the stage for later. Going directly against this direction, after having been re-assured that this is how it might work best will definitely kill a PC. The effect that you're trying to achieve may not be the one you get.
Chapter 3 - "If the character beat the odds in Greenest and won the fight, you can paraphrase to reflect that. As soon as he finishes speaking, he attacks. As long as none of the characters intervene, Cyanwrath's group knows better than to interfere in his one-on-one matches. If the characters gang up on Cyanwrath or one of his guards, or try to leave the chamber, the guards attack" Again, not sure why you're so adamant that this has to be a gang match, it's definitely not written this way. Echoing earlier, the effect here may not be what you intend.
As far as the Encounter Balance argument that you pose, Encounter Balance is a probability system, not one of defined solidity.
(Emphasis mine) These terms are not finite. They express what will probably happen. The entire system hinges on 6-8 encounters per day or a total xp budget for the day, which for 4 level 3 PCs should be in the 4800xp area. (Well within the bounds of possibility for this one.) The tactics, environment and a multitude of other variables go into deciding the outcome. Namely the random arbiters of fate: the dice. What you say is accurate when you state that the xp thresholds are well out of bounds, for the deadly threshold if your party has already had 5 to 7 encounters for the adventuring day, but they aren't including you, the DM, padding the blows of the opponent when neccessary to make the fight feel exciting. The PCs have always had the option of ganging up on Langdedrosa and attempting to kill him in chapter 1. They still have that option now.
You've asked if the developers forgot something, but why are you so willing to ignore what they haven't forgotten?
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
No, it's written as something with worse odds than a gang match. 4 level 3 vs 1x CR 4 and 2x CR 2 is a way more winnable fight than 1 level 3 vs 1 CR 4.
It was never my intention to bring the Chapter 3 1v1 situation into this discussion, since the calculated difficulty of that is another can of worms. As is the potential for Frulam Mondath to join in. My actual question is this:
Assuming our 4 heroes are up against Cyanwrath and her 2 Langdedrosa Cyanwrath and her 2 berserkers, the encounter exceeds the party's deadly threshold twice over. Did the developers:
A) do that on purpose because they don't need to rely on the adjusted XP system to balance the encounter,
B) forget to apply the x2 multiplier that 3 to 6 enemies would impose, or
C) use the x1 multiplier instead having determined the berserkers to not be difficult enough?
Judging from this earlier reply, it seems that A is the answer to my question. I needed to be sure because I've heard about HotDQ having balance issues since it's an earlier adventure.
There's no real way to distinguish 'deliberate' from 'mistake' other than whether in practice it's too hard. Compared to Curse of Strahd, which in areas suggested for level 4 have potential encounters rated at 21,600 xp and 17,400 xp (deadly budget: 2,000) that encounter seems positively balanced (both encounters can be avoided, but there isn't terribly much warning that PCs should do so).
Odds of winning are a probability, granted. Determining whether or not the fight is winnable before an attempt isn't what the encounter balance system does. There is also an opportunity for the players to turn this into a social interaction instead of the DM forcing combat. It may be miniscule, but is still an opportunity.
Yes, the option is written into the encounter description. It's a clear "if-then" path. Two of them actually. The players have a choice in this encounter, one path might be more successful than another, but that's the point of making a choice. The decision needs to matter, there needs be consequence for choice, both good and bad.
Edit: Take an example from the Adventuring Day XP chart used to determine the amount of xp that a particular PC can expect to earn in an adventuing day (end of one long rest to the end of the next long rest). And would you look at that... a level 3 adventurer can expect to be able to handle 1,200 xp for a day. What's the expected xp of a CR 4 creature? XP by CR table suggests 1,100. This'll be a tough fight, no doubt, but still a possibility of a win.
Is this a mistake, not from what I see. Did the designer forget something, again my answer is no. It's merely another method to determine the probability of success that the party, or in this case, a character, might have.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
While a 1v1 the PC has a chance of winning the odds are very much stacked against it if Langdedrosa goes all out. As Langdedrosa is a fighter lets compare them with a level 3 fighter great weapon fighter with +4 str and +3 con (in reality few will have stats that good.
Langdedrosa has 57 hit points, the player if they take average has 31, even if we add second wind to the player that only boosts him to 40. It is unlikely the player has yet obtained splint armor so unless their offensive output is reduced by going sword and board they will likely have lower AC. Great weapon fighting will increase the players damage by about 1 but Langdedrosa has multi-attack so has alsmost twice the damage output.
Champion moight not be the best fighter subclass so the player might have subclass features better than a crit on a 19 but that is nothing like enough to make up for the lower HT and lack of multi attack.
If Landgredrorsa wants the PC dead and wins initiative he will Action surge on the first round, use his lightnigh breath and take 2 attacks. A failure on the dex save wil mean one hit is likely to be enough to knock the fighter unconcious before he even gets a turn (and a success would mean he would still be likely to be unconcious if both attacks hit). If the PC wins initiatve the best they can hope for is to take out about half of Langderosa's hit points before his onslought in return. If a party only has one encounter per day with an XP based aroounf the adventuring day XP they will have a very hard time because they will not be able to use a whole days resurces n the fight (either due to lack of rounds or not being able ot use short rest based features more than once or not being ble ot use hit dice to recover hit points)
Adjusted xp is 1,650 (party size less than 3), and even that kind of underestimates the difficulty, not to mention that using an entire daily budget in one encounter is generally a kill.
I'm glad that you can see that generally isn't definitely. Also like to point out that you've conceded that you can go well beyond suggested thresholds and still have winnable encounters, and still argue that this is overly difficult. Maybe I'm catching a mixed message?
Also, what you are continuing to refer to is not the Adventuring Day budget that I pointed out in my quoted response. There is no adjustment for party size in the Adventuring Day method.
The rest of the party will still have their 3,600xp to chew through amongst the three of them.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I said way back in post #2 that you can exceed the Deadly budget by a lot and still have something winnable; usually a practical limit is around 200%. The solo fight option is up at 400%.
The adjustment for party size is in the adjusted xp of an encounter: if the party size is less than 3, increase the modifier for number of enemies by one step (I would increase by 2 steps for a party size of 1, but that's not RAW). That means you multiply adjusted xp by 1.5 for single combat. The adventuring day method is based on adjusted xp.
The adjustment for party size is to the adjusted xp value of a challenge.
Help me out with this one? I'm not finding this as a suggestion in the DMG. Maybe post a link so that I might be able to find this? By your estimation, the solo fight would encompass a creature of around 1,600xp?
I'm familiar with this method. And it's not what I'm referring to. You're pointing out Party Size which points out, first sentence -
Three paragraphs later there is another method for determining how much the party can endure in an Adventuring Day, which I'm suggesting might serve as an explanation for the supposed oversight by the authors of this encounter.
Regardless, this entire adventure is brutal as written. Even moreso if the DM plays the monsters as if they were determined to win. Which I think they should be.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
It's just my experience as a DM.
That's not 'another' method. That's part of the same method. The way it works is that you are expected to have multiple encounters (designed using the rules for building encounters) with a total adjusted xp over the course of the day equal to the budget for the adventuring days (which is a big chunk of why encounters built using the rules feel easy: they're designed to be part of a full day).