I just realized something. Is it even possible for this artifact to fall to the center of the sun? For calculation purposes, the artifact is 1000 pounds and is the Maw of a Dragonborn (so the size is tiny). Assume the volume is 0.125 cubic feet.
I just realized something. Is it even possible for this artifact to fall to the center of the sun? For calculation purposes, the artifact is 1000 pounds and is the Maw of a Dragonborn (so the size is tiny). Assume the volume is 0.125 cubic feet.
Interesting question.
0.125 cu ft = ~3540 cm3
1000lbs = 453592 grams
Density of object = 453592/3540 = 128g/cm3
Density of core of the sun = 150g/cm3
So no - the object would float around somewhere in the sun because it is not dense enough to fall all the way to the center. How far from the center would it be? The links below give some idea - the second contains tabulated data for the standard model of the density profile of the sun, 128g/cm3 is at about 0.05 solar radii. The solar radius is 696,340km so the object would tend to float on a surface that is 34,817km from the center - ignoring convective flows that might move it around a lot - my area is not solar astrophyics so I can't say what sort of convection and other effects might be active in the solar core. The surface area of this layer is about 1.5e10 square kilometers.
Finding this artifact is far worse than looking for a needle in a haystack unless you have some way to open a portal to exactly where the artifact is sitting. If you don't know where it is, you will never find it and it won't be at the center. Of course, that is real physics not D&D physics - in a game world do whatever you like.
No matter where the artifact is, since the caster knows the true name of the creature inside, the gate will appear next to the artifact and pull the creature in the artifact through the portal. If the gate is opened at this location 34817km from the center of the sun, will the damage from opening the portal still be the same? I could just say that the artifact was put into the center after something specific to my campaign occurred with the sun; however, it would just move back up to 34817km from the center of the sun because it would not be as dense as the core.
No matter where the artifact is, since the caster knows the true name of the creature inside, the gate will appear next to the artifact and pull the creature in the artifact through the portal. If the gate is opened at this location 34817km from the center of the sun, will the damage from opening the portal still be the same? I could just say that the artifact was put into the center after something specific to my campaign occurred with the sun; however, it would just move back up to 34817km from the center of the sun because it would not be as dense as the core.
:)
It is your game, you can have it do whatever your want. As for damage, it really is irrelevant - the amount of damage resulting from releasing solar plasma anywhere will be staggering. Realistically it would incinerate and compress anything to paste and ashes. In D&D however, there is magic and magic like this is entirely up to the DM.
Gate is concentration ... but Time Stop is not. If the caster has two 9th level slots or an assistant then they might be able to do something. However, the time delay caused by casting Gate one round and Time Stop the next would be enough to send the artifact a few thousand kilometers away.
You can't use Gate during the time stop with this object because Time Stop ends when you do something that affects another creature - and apparently this object contains a creature.
If it was just an object you wanted to recover then Time Stop might be a solution since the object is not being worn or carried by someone else. Cast Time stop, cast Gate to open the portal, use the boon of invincibility to extract the object from the solar plasma without taking an immense amount of damage - though it might be impossible to pull out (at DM discretion) since depending on the shape, it will be wrapped with the ultra dense solar material that will tend to keep it in place. As soon as the object is out, drop concentration on the portal - since it was done during a time stop, no plasma escapes and avoids obliterating a large portion of the astral (or material or whichever) plane where the caster opened the portal.
However, it requires two 9th level slots or a scroll for one of the spells - and the spell has to be on the spell list so it would work for a wizard but not a cleric (except an Arcana cleric who took time stop over wish as their 9th level slot).
P.S. Come to think of it - if they are casting Gate then using a non-standard Wish with the risk of stress might also be able to recover the object (DM discretion of course).
The fusion process is likely to stop almost immediately as the plasma expands through the portal. The only factor maintaining the hydrogen fusion process in the core is the huge pressure caused by the gravity compression at the core. So any additional power due to fusion processes is negligible. The power density at the core of the sun (based on wikipedia info :) ) is on the order of 276W/m3.
That's what I thought also. Nice having source though :)
Keep in mind also that at the center of the sun the gravity is zero. Gravity for a sphere is determined by the mass of particles that are a closer to the center than the current position. At the center there are no particles closer so gravity is zero - so there should be limited or negligible gravitational effects through the portal. The density of the core of the sun is 150g/cm3 which is only about 10 times heavier than gold.
Relativity does not work the way described - particles are not "slowed down by time". From special relativity, the mass of an object increases as it gets closer to the speed of light and the time experienced by the object decreases. The increase in mass relative to the rest mass. The mass of the object as measured from the reference frame increases as the speed approaches the speed of light. The mass approaches infinity as the speed approaches c - which is why a material object can't be accelerated to the speed of light.
True, particles aren't slowed down by time, but relativity does predict a change in the speed at which time flows, ei that in a faster moving frame a clock would tick slower to outside observers. I don't think this pertains much to this situation but I think Thuruk had the right idea just didn't use the right wording to describe it
Opening a portal to the core of the sun would allow the plasma to expand as a free jet - any resistance at typical earth surface pressures would be negligible.
In the case of a plasma, there is no physical difference between temperature and kinetic energy - temperature is a measure of the random kinetic energy (translational) in a group of particles. (See kinetic theory of gases/plasmas).
One estimate for the rate of plasma expansion into a vacuum puts the velocity of the front at 3 *(kT/m)^1/2 ~ 10^6 m/s for T=15 million K and m = 1.67e-27 (proton mass). This is substantially less than the speed of light - however, in D&D terms, a million meters/second (1000km/sec) over a period of 12 seconds (2 rounds) would expand over a distance of 12,000km. However, because the portal is closer to a jet or nozzle, the expansion would not be uniform.
However, this does mean that your artifact embedded in this dense plasma material is likely to end up several thousand kilometers away from the portal (no matter where you open it) in the first few seconds (assuming it is accelerated by the dense plasma pressure at a rate comparable to the plasma expansion).
There is no way a creature could stand in front of the portal to try to grab the item since the damage from the expansion would be astronomical but the creature would also be "blown" several thousand kilometers with a very high rate of acceleration - so even with something to hold their body together - it would be pulped by the acceleration.
I mean, with the boon of invisibility the body is magically unharmed. IRL the acceleration would be deadly even if something was physically keeping the body together, but in dnd magic exists and somehow do damage is dealt. After the initial damage, that's the problem. I think the gas would continue to expend and jet out, but I'm still doing calculations.
The bottom line is that a portal might release the item into whatever space where the portal is opened - but there is no way a creature will be able to quickly recover the item or even find it since they would need to search a massive volume of the astral plane covering several thousand or more kilometers - consider that even after the portal closes the item is still going to continue moving in a more or less random direction at a speed on the order of 1e6 m/s. You are effectively shooting the artifact out of a massive cannon onto the astral plane.
However, mixing magic and physic in D&D is rarely a good idea. :) ... so the DM needs to figure out what they want to have happen, figure out consequences, then figure out how they want it to work to give those results.
One thing to keep in mind ... if opening a portal to the core of the sun is so devastating ... why have mages not used this in wars? They could choose specific parts of the photosphere to give the level of damage they desire, open a portal, and wipe a city off the map. It would be the equivalent of a magical nuclear weapon. If you don't want your characters doing this then perhaps make the sun a huge anti-magic region which would prevent it from being abused (though it would mess with the plot line in this case in recovering an item at the center of the sun).
That's actually a really good point, I didn't think of that. If you want to keep the world consistent you'll need to do something... The most appearant solution would be to have a "flat earth" style world (which is the cannot lore of forgotten realms I believe) where there is no space and the sun is not a giant ball of plasma. But the problem would be that you already started it by letting the players drop something into the sun. You could say that theirs an antimagic field that flickers a second or two every now and then, and they were lucky to catch it flickering?
On the other hand, the idea of using portals to the sun to obliterate entire landscapes fits the world I'm building..... Thanks for the idea!
P.S. In terms of damage estimates - the fire + bludgeoning example above seemed as good as any.
The caster can never learn Time Stop because of his class. As for the danger of using portals to the sun as Weapons of Mass Destruction, I am going to have Primus set the rule after this caster essentially ruins a major area of the Astral Plane that creatures cannot open portals in the sun nor can a creature teleport into space (may change once Spell Jammer comes out - we'll see). The caster will survive any aftereffects since he also has the Boon of the Fire Soul. He will fuse to artifact and will still suffer some heavy drawbacks as well.
Realmspace, the AD&D spelljammer book, has an entry for the Sun. In the Torillian system, the Sun is essentially just an obscenely hot fire planet with natural inhabitants and portals to the plane of fire. The heat produced by the elemental fire would be considered atmospheric, rather than an object, so it probably wouldn't pass through the portal produced by the Gate spell.
Life is much easier when using in-game environments with in-game effects.
As for realism... being witness to the opening of a portal to the actual sun's core simply isn't survivable by a mortal. It's not just Bludgeoning or Fire, it's Radiant (full spectrum radiation), and Acid (ionized hydrogen), and Thunder (concussive blasts), and Lightning (sudden charge differentials), and Suffocation (planet-sized bubble of unbreathable gas), and deafening, and blinding, and ..., and ..., and ..., etc... You'd be exposed to forces that probably can't be represented in game terms.
Exposure to the Sun would be akin to a divine level Sickening Radiance, which would bypass damage invulnerability and kill via Exhaustion.
Any chance at survival requires plot armor.
I'd probably just say that any environment so extreme effectively acts as an anti-magic zone. There is just too much disruption.
The caster can never learn Time Stop because of his class. As for the danger of using portals to the sun as Weapons of Mass Destruction, I am going to have Primus set the rule after this caster essentially ruins a major area of the Astral Plane that creatures cannot open portals in the sun nor can a creature teleport into space (may change once Spell Jammer comes out - we'll see). The caster will survive any aftereffects since he also has the Boon of the Fire Soul. He will fuse to artifact and will still suffer some heavy drawbacks as well.
Worth restating as it seems to have gotten lost in my other post (understandably):
Leomunds Tiny Hut states that the atmosphere inside the hut remains comfortable - so cast the Gate spell from inside the hut to keep the sun from coming through the portal!
Worth restating as it seems to have gotten lost in my other post (understandably):
Leomunds Tiny Hut states that the atmosphere inside the hut remains comfortable - so cast the Gate spell from inside the hut to keep the sun from coming through the portal!
Tiny Hut isn't impervious to everything. Dragon's breath still passes through, and a column of ionized hydrogen gas from the core of a sun shouldn't count as "atmosphere" either. It might block against a subsequent bubble of super-lethal gas, but not the initial burst.
Worth restating as it seems to have gotten lost in my other post (understandably):
Leomunds Tiny Hut states that the atmosphere inside the hut remains comfortable - so cast the Gate spell from inside the hut to keep the sun from coming through the portal!
Tiny Hut isn't impervious to everything. Dragon's breath still passes through, and a column of ionized hydrogen gas from the core of a sun shouldn't count as "atmosphere" either. It might block against a subsequent bubble of super-lethal gas, but not the initial burst.
Ah, but how can the hut get hotter if th atmsphere remains comfortable?
to quote the British Standard for Pillow Manufacture:
"Lumps, Bumps, Sharp objects, and Stellar Plumes of Superhot Gases ar considered uncomfortable and should not be allowed in Pillows"
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but technically if magic can put a ortal in the middle of the sun without the portal being destroyed, then magic can keep the sun from coming through!
The tiny hut only creates a comfortable atmosphere, it doesn't stop the residents from getting hotter. Put a fire in the hut, and it's just a pretty light. Grind a lit torch into your arm and you get burned.
The tiny hut only creates a comfortable atmosphere, it doesn't stop the residents from getting hotter. Put a fire in the hut, and it's just a pretty light. Grind a lit torch into your arm and you get burned.
That's true, but it's hard to consider an eruption of hot gas and radiation to not be attributed to an uncomfortable atmosphere.
Though the same could be said to broaching an uncomfortable subject in conversation...
The sun's core is liquid, and has a density 10x that of gold. It would evaporate quickly, but first you're taking a beam of pure mass to the face.
"Atmosphere" is effectively the stuff in space that you are capable of moving through. Everything else is terrain.
There are various ways this could be interpreted, but anything which allows for access to the goal object is also going to allow exposure to the dangerous elements. It would be better to just wish for the object and skip the portal.
I just realized something. Is it even possible for this artifact to fall to the center of the sun? For calculation purposes, the artifact is 1000 pounds and is the Maw of a Dragonborn (so the size is tiny). Assume the volume is 0.125 cubic feet.
Interesting question.
0.125 cu ft = ~3540 cm3
1000lbs = 453592 grams
Density of object = 453592/3540 = 128g/cm3
Density of core of the sun = 150g/cm3
So no - the object would float around somewhere in the sun because it is not dense enough to fall all the way to the center. How far from the center would it be? The links below give some idea - the second contains tabulated data for the standard model of the density profile of the sun, 128g/cm3 is at about 0.05 solar radii. The solar radius is 696,340km so the object would tend to float on a surface that is 34,817km from the center - ignoring convective flows that might move it around a lot - my area is not solar astrophyics so I can't say what sort of convection and other effects might be active in the solar core. The surface area of this layer is about 1.5e10 square kilometers.
Finding this artifact is far worse than looking for a needle in a haystack unless you have some way to open a portal to exactly where the artifact is sitting. If you don't know where it is, you will never find it and it won't be at the center. Of course, that is real physics not D&D physics - in a game world do whatever you like.
https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/32729/at-what-depth-below-the-suns-surface-does-the-density-reach-that-of-water/32734#32734
http://www.sns.ias.edu/~jnb/SNdata/Export/BP2004/bp2004stdmodel.dat
No matter where the artifact is, since the caster knows the true name of the creature inside, the gate will appear next to the artifact and pull the creature in the artifact through the portal. If the gate is opened at this location 34817km from the center of the sun, will the damage from opening the portal still be the same? I could just say that the artifact was put into the center after something specific to my campaign occurred with the sun; however, it would just move back up to 34817km from the center of the sun because it would not be as dense as the core.
:)
It is your game, you can have it do whatever your want. As for damage, it really is irrelevant - the amount of damage resulting from releasing solar plasma anywhere will be staggering. Realistically it would incinerate and compress anything to paste and ashes. In D&D however, there is magic and magic like this is entirely up to the DM.
Gate is concentration ... but Time Stop is not. If the caster has two 9th level slots or an assistant then they might be able to do something. However, the time delay caused by casting Gate one round and Time Stop the next would be enough to send the artifact a few thousand kilometers away.
You can't use Gate during the time stop with this object because Time Stop ends when you do something that affects another creature - and apparently this object contains a creature.
If it was just an object you wanted to recover then Time Stop might be a solution since the object is not being worn or carried by someone else. Cast Time stop, cast Gate to open the portal, use the boon of invincibility to extract the object from the solar plasma without taking an immense amount of damage - though it might be impossible to pull out (at DM discretion) since depending on the shape, it will be wrapped with the ultra dense solar material that will tend to keep it in place. As soon as the object is out, drop concentration on the portal - since it was done during a time stop, no plasma escapes and avoids obliterating a large portion of the astral (or material or whichever) plane where the caster opened the portal.
However, it requires two 9th level slots or a scroll for one of the spells - and the spell has to be on the spell list so it would work for a wizard but not a cleric (except an Arcana cleric who took time stop over wish as their 9th level slot).
P.S. Come to think of it - if they are casting Gate then using a non-standard Wish with the risk of stress might also be able to recover the object (DM discretion of course).
That's what I thought also. Nice having source though :)
True, particles aren't slowed down by time, but relativity does predict a change in the speed at which time flows, ei that in a faster moving frame a clock would tick slower to outside observers. I don't think this pertains much to this situation but I think Thuruk had the right idea just didn't use the right wording to describe it
I mean, with the boon of invisibility the body is magically unharmed. IRL the acceleration would be deadly even if something was physically keeping the body together, but in dnd magic exists and somehow do damage is dealt. After the initial damage, that's the problem. I think the gas would continue to expend and jet out, but I'm still doing calculations.
That's actually a really good point, I didn't think of that. If you want to keep the world consistent you'll need to do something... The most appearant solution would be to have a "flat earth" style world (which is the cannot lore of forgotten realms I believe) where there is no space and the sun is not a giant ball of plasma. But the problem would be that you already started it by letting the players drop something into the sun. You could say that theirs an antimagic field that flickers a second or two every now and then, and they were lucky to catch it flickering?
On the other hand, the idea of using portals to the sun to obliterate entire landscapes fits the world I'm building..... Thanks for the idea!
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
The caster can never learn Time Stop because of his class. As for the danger of using portals to the sun as Weapons of Mass Destruction, I am going to have Primus set the rule after this caster essentially ruins a major area of the Astral Plane that creatures cannot open portals in the sun nor can a creature teleport into space (may change once Spell Jammer comes out - we'll see). The caster will survive any aftereffects since he also has the Boon of the Fire Soul. He will fuse to artifact and will still suffer some heavy drawbacks as well.
Realmspace, the AD&D spelljammer book, has an entry for the Sun. In the Torillian system, the Sun is essentially just an obscenely hot fire planet with natural inhabitants and portals to the plane of fire. The heat produced by the elemental fire would be considered atmospheric, rather than an object, so it probably wouldn't pass through the portal produced by the Gate spell.
Life is much easier when using in-game environments with in-game effects.
As for realism... being witness to the opening of a portal to the actual sun's core simply isn't survivable by a mortal. It's not just Bludgeoning or Fire, it's Radiant (full spectrum radiation), and Acid (ionized hydrogen), and Thunder (concussive blasts), and Lightning (sudden charge differentials), and Suffocation (planet-sized bubble of unbreathable gas), and deafening, and blinding, and ..., and ..., and ..., etc... You'd be exposed to forces that probably can't be represented in game terms.
Exposure to the Sun would be akin to a divine level Sickening Radiance, which would bypass damage invulnerability and kill via Exhaustion.
Any chance at survival requires plot armor.
I'd probably just say that any environment so extreme effectively acts as an anti-magic zone. There is just too much disruption.
Sounds like a great solution!
Have fun!
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_sun
perhaps this will help if your campaign is in The Forgotten Realms. This is old 2E Spell Jammer lore.
Worth restating as it seems to have gotten lost in my other post (understandably):
Leomunds Tiny Hut states that the atmosphere inside the hut remains comfortable - so cast the Gate spell from inside the hut to keep the sun from coming through the portal!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Tiny Hut isn't impervious to everything. Dragon's breath still passes through, and a column of ionized hydrogen gas from the core of a sun shouldn't count as "atmosphere" either. It might block against a subsequent bubble of super-lethal gas, but not the initial burst.
Ah, but how can the hut get hotter if th atmsphere remains comfortable?
to quote the British Standard for Pillow Manufacture:
"Lumps, Bumps, Sharp objects, and Stellar Plumes of Superhot Gases ar considered uncomfortable and should not be allowed in Pillows"
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but technically if magic can put a ortal in the middle of the sun without the portal being destroyed, then magic can keep the sun from coming through!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
The tiny hut only creates a comfortable atmosphere, it doesn't stop the residents from getting hotter. Put a fire in the hut, and it's just a pretty light. Grind a lit torch into your arm and you get burned.
That's true, but it's hard to consider an eruption of hot gas and radiation to not be attributed to an uncomfortable atmosphere.
Though the same could be said to broaching an uncomfortable subject in conversation...
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
The sun's core is liquid, and has a density 10x that of gold. It would evaporate quickly, but first you're taking a beam of pure mass to the face.
"Atmosphere" is effectively the stuff in space that you are capable of moving through. Everything else is terrain.
There are various ways this could be interpreted, but anything which allows for access to the goal object is also going to allow exposure to the dangerous elements. It would be better to just wish for the object and skip the portal.