I know there are rules for mounted combat and such, but I am having a hard time finding out how to approach combat when he is trying to ride the spider up a wall and possibly on the ceiling (can he hang upside down?)
I am sure there are penalties, climb checks, and the possibility of him falling. But what is the mechanics of it and how should I approach this in my world? I'm assuming loads of people in cities won't want to see a giant spider wandering around with him.
Abilitiy checks are where its at. I wouldn't penalize the spider though, since the spider climb ability basically means they can ignore ability checks to climb on things. But what kind of saddle is the player using? If it doesn't strap him in place, he's going to need to hang on for dear life when the spider starts climbing. I recommend a DC 12-15 Athletics check per turn for climbing vertical surfaces, and DC 23-25 Athletics checks for upside down.
Even if he did get a saddle that full-on straps him in... when he mounts up, have him make an ability check to make sure he strapped all the straps nice and tight. He on;y gets one shot at this before taking off, and can only re-attempt it when rebuckling. If he fails the check, when the spider starts going up... he slides off.
Even if he did the straps right enough to not let him fall off... if he passes the DC to strap up by 5 or less, I'd make the straps incredibly uncomfortable and tight, dealing 1 damage per turn until he stops and fixes it.
As for how people might react to a giant spider climbing all over their city?
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That spider's going to climb a lot better and a lot faster than he can. If you want realism, that mean things are going to be bumping and swaying rapidly with each of the spider's steps, so a check every 10 feet wouldn't be ridiculous. However: players don't play D&D for realism, no matter what they try and tell you. I personally would have him make the check once per round.
I think I'd find regularly checking to see if I fall off or taking strap damage a pretty tedious experience making horse ownership look more attractive. Force a check too often and falling off regularly is a near-certainty. Only check when you get buckled in and it starts to get a little silly to commit to believing that this dude often fails to strap himself to the spider.
Given a spider mount, I would assume that my DM was designing the adventure such that a spider mount didn't ruin their plans.The spider gives some benefits, although it sounds like it could have limited utility in a cramped dungeon, draw too much negative attention in an urban environment, etc. If it seems too powerful, maybe offset it with less dice rolling downsides. Maybe if the spider goes down it takes time to unbuckle from, for example?
If you feel like you need to make the spider mount much less useful, I would reconsider handing out spider mounts.
First things first, do you know why your player wants a spider mount? Are they trying to break the game and subvert your encounters? Do they think it makes sense for their character (former drow captain of the guard is more likely to have one than a halfling wizard)? Or just want to try it because it's neat? Get their explanation, make sure they aren't just trying to make your job harder for it's own sake, and work from their to see how best to incorporate such a thing.
Should your player earnestly want this for the sake of fun and not breaking the game, I would do my best to make it fun and find a way to have it add to the campaign. Adding an ability check every round would be in direct opposition to that. Even if you disapproved of your players mount, it's never good to hinder them in that manner as it looks more underhanded on your part. You just want things to be fun, and so does he. If you simply won't allow it, take care of it out of game.
If I were to allow such a thing and the player had made a character and backstory to support it, I'd firstly tell them climbing on walls would require that saddle everyone is talking about. However, instead of checks to strap up, think of it more like dawning and doffing armor. It takes 2 full minutes to strap yourself to your spider, and 1 minute to undo it. That way, they have limits while caught off saddle should a battle erupt while still being able to mount up and do something not involving walls. Otherwise, treat it like any other mount as far as checks are concerned.
If they don't have a character that you think gels with this idea, then it's gotta be earned. Hell, even if they're a beastmaster ranger, I don't think giant spiders are a good starting beast. Make them something that has to be obtained or bought, and make it a challenge. They should be impossible to tame or bind without magic (preferably something distinctly drow) and pricey to buy from those who can manage it. Many they come cheaper from some, but only because they haven't been trained to go out into the sunny overworld and require conditioning. There's always a way for a player to get what they want, but what realism the game requires for immersion isn't gonna make it easy, which is what makes it's all worth it in the end.
I agree with josh and noman. Why bother wasting table time ruining someone's fun? Either A) don't give him a mountable (eg trained) giant spider, or B) give it to him and let him enjoy it. Rolling every round (or 3x per round) to probably get bucked off the spider is basically akin to option A anyway... just dressed up with a lot of useless die rolls.
Not quite. If I don't give you a spider mount, I have deprived you of the opportunity to 1.) do awesome mounted combat stunts, climbing on walls and hanging from ceilings and 2.) fall spectacularly to your death if you do the former option wrong.
A spider mount is going to give players a lot of advantages. It isn't unreasonable to offset those by requiring they make and pass checks to capitalize on those advantages.
Not quite. If I don't give you a spider mount, I have deprived you of the opportunity to 1.) do awesome mounted combat stunts, climbing on walls and hanging from ceilings and 2.) fall spectacularly to your death if you do the former option wrong.
A spider mount is going to give players a lot of advantages. It isn't unreasonable to offset those by requiring they make and pass checks to capitalize on those advantages.
I'd say that balancing between a spider and a horse for mounts is definitely where this conversation goes, and by comparing between the two, we can assess the rules, not checks, we would need to make. Making it a series of checks often comes down to "roll three times and if one doesn't meet the DC, then tough". Having that every single turn is gonna make things boring and disheartening not just for the player in question, but for the whole table. It's not checks we want to focus on, but rules and parameters that this mount has unique to it.
If someone can readily fight on a horse, I won't make them roll any different checks or attacks for when they are on a spider instead. If it's melee weapons, I'd let them attack normally even on walls and ceilings. Ranged weapons may have disadvantage based on weapon proficency, mount movement while suspended, or whatever else you as a DM come up with. With a situation like this, it's important to work out these rules before the situations come up. This helps the player know what they can do, what to expect of this mount, and keeps you from impulsively resorting to ability check yahtzee for 25% of all combat.
Not quite. If I don't give you a spider mount, I have deprived you of the opportunity to 1.) do awesome mounted combat stunts, climbing on walls and hanging from ceilings and 2.) fall spectacularly to your death if you do the former option wrong.
A spider mount is going to give players a lot of advantages. It isn't unreasonable to offset those by requiring they make and pass checks to capitalize on those advantages.
Having that every single turn is gonna make things boring and disheartening not just for the player in question, but for the whole table.
Really? So then how do your players attack, damage, heal, or general accomplish things without getting bored or disheartened, since those are rolls you make every turn. One more roll isn't going to bore them, because it if did, they'd be playing something that doesn't involve dice. It isn't going to be disheartening (unless they continually fail checks), because it adds sense of depth and uncertainty to an otherwise standard "congratulation you just automatically do this thing" action. And it isn't going to affect the morale of the rest of the table, because a dice roll takes less than a second, and isn't going to delay turns.
If someone can readily fight on a horse, I won't make them roll any different checks or attacks for when they are on a spider instead. If it's melee weapons, I'd let them attack normally even on walls and ceilings. Ranged weapons may have disadvantage based on weapon proficency, mount movement while suspended, or whatever else you as a DM come up with. With a situation like this, it's important to work out these rules before the situations come up. This helps the player know what they can do, what to expect of this mount, and keeps you from impulsively resorting to ability check yahtzee for 25% of all combat.
Here, I agree. Combat while you're riding a spider is just combat... you know... while you're riding a spider. Do what you think is best, but establish rules like that in advance.
Personally, I would just stick to "don't fall off the spider" checks once per round and leave everything else as-is.
How is a spider mount more useful than existing options which don't come with massive downsides. For example, a [magicitem[broom of flying[/magicitem] which is an uncommon item? It's gives fewer advantages than spider climb which is a second level spell and doesn't require you to fit a giant spider into the area with you. It has many fewer advantages than fly or any of the items which grant a flying speed. The problems you can solve with a giant spider mount can already be solved with fairly minimal investment by spells and items from a number of other sources that don't penalise you for their use.
They sure are. The point I'm making is regarding balance. The game already sustains all of these alternatives for aerial/vertical movement which have either no penalty or require someone to concentrate. Introducing a new tool to solve the same problem but with many more penalties to balance it doesn't make sense.
Sam_Hain, i get it's a game heavily involving rolling dice, and we're all ready to do so many times. However, it slows a game and makes things generally less fun when done ad nausium. If it's for the sake of circumstances being extreme, such as gripping your upside down spider while it's on the ceiling, than yeah, a check per round with no actions/reactions/bonuses makes sense. I'm more pointing out that the thread by and large seemed to be saying "bury him in checks to show him his mount is a hack" instead of figuring how it'd work like a normal mount. All I'm saying is absolutely no one wants to roll three more times every turn just because their mount has 8 legs instead of 4.
How is a spider mount more useful than existing options which don't come with massive downsides. For example, a broom of flying which is an uncommon item? It's gives fewer advantages than spider climb which is a second level spell and doesn't require you to fit a giant spider into the area with you. It has many fewer advantages than fly or any of the items which grant a flying speed. The problems you can solve with a giant spider mount can already be solved with fairly minimal investment by spells and items from a number of other sources that don't penalise you for their use.
Firstly, all you need to make your broom of flying useless is antimagic field. That won't stop a giant spider. It's also easier fighting mounted as opposed to holding a broom. The spider also has blindsight for ten feet, giving your mounted warrior a chance against a sneaky invisible enemy when combo'd with it's web action (provided it's well trained enough). Is your spider rider a heavy armor kinda guy? Guess what, spider doesn't jostle around with a +7 stealth. It's only half as fast as a horse, yeah, but it's more combative so, yeah, it's all trade off. It may not work for every situation, but it has enough appeal that I could see players wanting one.
A giant spider can be permanently disabled if it takes 25 points of damage. An anti-magic field is a temporary inconvenience for a broom of flying.
I wouldn't let someone in full plate skip their stealth roll because they were mounted. I might give them advantage to cancel out their DA. That's it.
If your spider is using web or attacking, then it's using the uncontrolled mount rules under the PHB and the DM can decide to override player commands at inopportune times. Presumably the balance there takes care of itself.
I don't think anyone is arguing that nobody would want a spider mount. Just like they'd take a cloak of arachidna if you offered it. The question is whether it's so amazingly overpowered that you need to balance it by forcing strength and acrobatics checks EVERY ROUND, and also do D.O.T. Damage each round because "spiderclimb." I'd argue no. In fact, given those drawbacks, I wouldn't want it.
Well, not skip their roll, but shelob was pretty sneaky. I'd toss them that +7 if they're hugging close.
I'm just trying to stick up for the player a bit, and the group for that matter. Every DM always wants a cool, unique campaign like what the read about from others, yet we all tend to get skwemish when a new idea no specifically in the book pops up. Some of the coolest stuff I've seen and done has been stuff along the principle of "why not spider mounts?", so I'm more or less advocating that working with the player is far more fun. So long as they feed the thing right.
Everyone here has done a great job covering the aspects of should the player be able to get a spider, and staying in the saddle during climbing and so on. I find the question of attacks interesting. In real life, I don’t think a person seated on a giant spider would be able to reach far enough past the legs with a sword to strike an opponent. The legs would create a circle around the spider that would make it so any melee weapons that are not lengthy (like pole arm or perhaps javelin) would not reach. What will your player do in combat? Use a ranged weapon? Or will you allow sword attacks from the saddle?
The other question is how do you train something that in the wild would eat you? Do you ever run the risk of pushing it too hard and having the spider turn on its master and make you its food source? Ask and lion or bear trainer and I’m sure that is always in the back of their mind. Does the character have to exert some sort of animal handling check every now and again to make sure he can assert his/her will?
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I know there are rules for mounted combat and such, but I am having a hard time finding out how to approach combat when he is trying to ride the spider up a wall and possibly on the ceiling (can he hang upside down?)
I am sure there are penalties, climb checks, and the possibility of him falling. But what is the mechanics of it and how should I approach this in my world? I'm assuming loads of people in cities won't want to see a giant spider wandering around with him.
Abilitiy checks are where its at. I wouldn't penalize the spider though, since the spider climb ability basically means they can ignore ability checks to climb on things. But what kind of saddle is the player using? If it doesn't strap him in place, he's going to need to hang on for dear life when the spider starts climbing. I recommend a DC 12-15 Athletics check per turn for climbing vertical surfaces, and DC 23-25 Athletics checks for upside down.
Even if he did get a saddle that full-on straps him in... when he mounts up, have him make an ability check to make sure he strapped all the straps nice and tight. He on;y gets one shot at this before taking off, and can only re-attempt it when rebuckling. If he fails the check, when the spider starts going up... he slides off.
Even if he did the straps right enough to not let him fall off... if he passes the DC to strap up by 5 or less, I'd make the straps incredibly uncomfortable and tight, dealing 1 damage per turn until he stops and fixes it.
As for how people might react to a giant spider climbing all over their city?
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Ok right on, that was in the same vein of thought as I was going through. I give it two sessions before he falls to his death lol.
Should the checks be per turn or should I present climb checks for the rider as normal every 10 feet? Or is that too harsh?
That spider's going to climb a lot better and a lot faster than he can. If you want realism, that mean things are going to be bumping and swaying rapidly with each of the spider's steps, so a check every 10 feet wouldn't be ridiculous. However: players don't play D&D for realism, no matter what they try and tell you. I personally would have him make the check once per round.
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I think I'd find regularly checking to see if I fall off or taking strap damage a pretty tedious experience making horse ownership look more attractive. Force a check too often and falling off regularly is a near-certainty. Only check when you get buckled in and it starts to get a little silly to commit to believing that this dude often fails to strap himself to the spider.
Given a spider mount, I would assume that my DM was designing the adventure such that a spider mount didn't ruin their plans.The spider gives some benefits, although it sounds like it could have limited utility in a cramped dungeon, draw too much negative attention in an urban environment, etc. If it seems too powerful, maybe offset it with less dice rolling downsides. Maybe if the spider goes down it takes time to unbuckle from, for example?
If you feel like you need to make the spider mount much less useful, I would reconsider handing out spider mounts.
First things first, do you know why your player wants a spider mount? Are they trying to break the game and subvert your encounters? Do they think it makes sense for their character (former drow captain of the guard is more likely to have one than a halfling wizard)? Or just want to try it because it's neat? Get their explanation, make sure they aren't just trying to make your job harder for it's own sake, and work from their to see how best to incorporate such a thing.
Should your player earnestly want this for the sake of fun and not breaking the game, I would do my best to make it fun and find a way to have it add to the campaign. Adding an ability check every round would be in direct opposition to that. Even if you disapproved of your players mount, it's never good to hinder them in that manner as it looks more underhanded on your part. You just want things to be fun, and so does he. If you simply won't allow it, take care of it out of game.
If I were to allow such a thing and the player had made a character and backstory to support it, I'd firstly tell them climbing on walls would require that saddle everyone is talking about. However, instead of checks to strap up, think of it more like dawning and doffing armor. It takes 2 full minutes to strap yourself to your spider, and 1 minute to undo it. That way, they have limits while caught off saddle should a battle erupt while still being able to mount up and do something not involving walls. Otherwise, treat it like any other mount as far as checks are concerned.
If they don't have a character that you think gels with this idea, then it's gotta be earned. Hell, even if they're a beastmaster ranger, I don't think giant spiders are a good starting beast. Make them something that has to be obtained or bought, and make it a challenge. They should be impossible to tame or bind without magic (preferably something distinctly drow) and pricey to buy from those who can manage it. Many they come cheaper from some, but only because they haven't been trained to go out into the sunny overworld and require conditioning. There's always a way for a player to get what they want, but what realism the game requires for immersion isn't gonna make it easy, which is what makes it's all worth it in the end.
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I agree with josh and noman. Why bother wasting table time ruining someone's fun? Either A) don't give him a mountable (eg trained) giant spider, or B) give it to him and let him enjoy it. Rolling every round (or 3x per round) to probably get bucked off the spider is basically akin to option A anyway... just dressed up with a lot of useless die rolls.
Not quite. If I don't give you a spider mount, I have deprived you of the opportunity to 1.) do awesome mounted combat stunts, climbing on walls and hanging from ceilings and 2.) fall spectacularly to your death if you do the former option wrong.
A spider mount is going to give players a lot of advantages. It isn't unreasonable to offset those by requiring they make and pass checks to capitalize on those advantages.
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How is a spider mount more useful than existing options which don't come with massive downsides. For example, a [magicitem[broom of flying[/magicitem] which is an uncommon item? It's gives fewer advantages than spider climb which is a second level spell and doesn't require you to fit a giant spider into the area with you. It has many fewer advantages than fly or any of the items which grant a flying speed. The problems you can solve with a giant spider mount can already be solved with fairly minimal investment by spells and items from a number of other sources that don't penalise you for their use.
The simple answer, I image, is something to the tune of "Giant rideable spiders are cool"
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They sure are. The point I'm making is regarding balance. The game already sustains all of these alternatives for aerial/vertical movement which have either no penalty or require someone to concentrate. Introducing a new tool to solve the same problem but with many more penalties to balance it doesn't make sense.
Unless it wasn't introduced as a tool. Players will try just about anything with anything.
It it's alive, they will (in order of likelihood):
Maybe his player just decided on a whim "In stead of smashing this spider, I wanna ride it", and it being indulged because "sure, why not".
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Sam_Hain, i get it's a game heavily involving rolling dice, and we're all ready to do so many times. However, it slows a game and makes things generally less fun when done ad nausium. If it's for the sake of circumstances being extreme, such as gripping your upside down spider while it's on the ceiling, than yeah, a check per round with no actions/reactions/bonuses makes sense. I'm more pointing out that the thread by and large seemed to be saying "bury him in checks to show him his mount is a hack" instead of figuring how it'd work like a normal mount. All I'm saying is absolutely no one wants to roll three more times every turn just because their mount has 8 legs instead of 4.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
A giant spider can be permanently disabled if it takes 25 points of damage. An anti-magic field is a temporary inconvenience for a broom of flying.
I wouldn't let someone in full plate skip their stealth roll because they were mounted. I might give them advantage to cancel out their DA. That's it.
If your spider is using web or attacking, then it's using the uncontrolled mount rules under the PHB and the DM can decide to override player commands at inopportune times. Presumably the balance there takes care of itself.
I don't think anyone is arguing that nobody would want a spider mount. Just like they'd take a cloak of arachidna if you offered it. The question is whether it's so amazingly overpowered that you need to balance it by forcing strength and acrobatics checks EVERY ROUND, and also do D.O.T. Damage each round because "spiderclimb." I'd argue no. In fact, given those drawbacks, I wouldn't want it.
Well, not skip their roll, but shelob was pretty sneaky. I'd toss them that +7 if they're hugging close.
I'm just trying to stick up for the player a bit, and the group for that matter. Every DM always wants a cool, unique campaign like what the read about from others, yet we all tend to get skwemish when a new idea no specifically in the book pops up. Some of the coolest stuff I've seen and done has been stuff along the principle of "why not spider mounts?", so I'm more or less advocating that working with the player is far more fun. So long as they feed the thing right.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
Everyone here has done a great job covering the aspects of should the player be able to get a spider, and staying in the saddle during climbing and so on. I find the question of attacks interesting. In real life, I don’t think a person seated on a giant spider would be able to reach far enough past the legs with a sword to strike an opponent. The legs would create a circle around the spider that would make it so any melee weapons that are not lengthy (like pole arm or perhaps javelin) would not reach. What will your player do in combat? Use a ranged weapon? Or will you allow sword attacks from the saddle?
The other question is how do you train something that in the wild would eat you? Do you ever run the risk of pushing it too hard and having the spider turn on its master and make you its food source? Ask and lion or bear trainer and I’m sure that is always in the back of their mind. Does the character have to exert some sort of animal handling check every now and again to make sure he can assert his/her will?