I trust I am not the only one finding it a bit challenging to make encounters interesting (at least for me, ha, ha) when the monk in the party can almost trivially stun and knock prone any monster in the game unless they have legendary resistance. This problem is just getting bigger as the party members are moving beyond 14 level and the DC to avoid getting stunned or knocked prone is now quite high. I have tried to read everything with small print (figure of speech) to find if it says anywhere that larger monsters can’t be affected this way, but haven’t found anything. Have I missed something or is it really designed to be this way?
Anyway, how are you other DMs managing this issue? It just kind of ruin the fear of dying in a boss fight when the Adult Red Dragon is stunned and knocked prone by the monk in turn one.
At level 14, the monk’s save DC is at max an 18 (8+pb 5+ wis, which could also be a 5 if the monk maxed their wisdom). An adult red dragon has a +13 con save, so it should only need a 5 or higher. I guess with a flurry, the monk has a lot of swings, but still seems like the dragon should pass its save mostly.
Not to just stick with the dragon example, but it can fly. Its bite and tail attack have a 10’ and 15’ reach. It should be able to quite safely stay out of reach of the monk. Dragons should never fight standing still on the ground, that just lets melee characters pull of nova attacks and make quick work of it. Fly, burrow, swim, climb. Move all around.
As far as other monsters, use multiple enemies. The monk stuns one, his allies come and attack the monk.
And there’s just the general idea of multiple encounters. If the monk knows they’re going to have more fights before they can rest, they’ll be hesitant to blow through all their ki points. You don’t even actually have to make them fight, just make them think they might, enough that they want to keep a few points in reserve.
Well, the easy option is to just increase your encounter budgets; an adult red is Hard for 4 PCs and Medium for 5, and for tier 3 PCs that translates as Easy and Trivial (a decent rule of thumb is to multiple suggested encounter budgets by the tier, so double them for tier 2 PCs, triple them for tier 3, quadruple for tier 4).
Slap a few legendary resistances on monsters, that can generally help. But also don’t do too much to counteract it, or it might annoy the character. Even a few times for important bosses or npcs I’ve given them immunity to the stun condition and the player understood. Idk I haven’t played to many campaigns with monks
Since I have the same situation, I have a couple of comments :)
The stun ability of monks is extremely effective.
Some suggestions for occasional use (these should not be used all the time - just to mix it up and provide some additional challenge from time to time)
- legendary saves (add or increase them)
- boost con saves specifically (can justify if you need by having a variant of an existing creature or perhaps they have a potion that temporarily increases con saves?)
- stun immunity (add to some creatures)
- increased number of opponents - include ranged attackers - make it more difficult for the monk to run from one to another - add some interesting terrain/environmental effects - be cautious with this one since it can be very swingy depending on the success of the stuns
Unfortunately, VERY few creatures in the MM are immune to stun and this includes creatures like ghosts, gelatinous cube, ancient dragon, purple worm and many others that either don't have a physical body, have a very large body or have a decentralized body.
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I'll also mention that, yes, this is a situation that will come up. It is less of a concern for very powerful opponents with legendary saves and a very high base con save. Legendary saves by itself is insufficient since the monk is extremely efficient at burning through such saves if the con save isn't also high.
As an example, consider a Marilith - CR16 with +10 to con saves - no legendaries. A typical monk with 18 wisdom would have a base DC of 16 (level 9+) or 17 (level 13+) which the Marilith fails 25-30% of the time. A level 12 monk has 12 ki to spend on stuns that they can expend on every attack that hits. Spending 3 ki in the first round of combat gives a 60-65% chance of successfully stunning the Marilith. It doesn't take long before that Marilith is stunned becoming a very easy target for the rest of the party - especially since the stun lasts until the end of the monk's next turn. Archmages are actually pretty pathetic against a monk since they only have a +1 on con saves. The odds are good that the Archmage will not be a factor in the combat after a monk manages to attack them.
KI also comes back on a short rest so the Monk is likely to have their full ki for most encounters.
It might be worth looking at the UA version of the monk, as they limited stunning strike to once per turn (there are also multiple buffs, the class isn't weaker, but it might be less oppressive to play against).
For glass cannons like an archmage, though, "meat if the enemy gets within reach" is essentially working as designed.
5e boss design isn't terribly good, you may want custom designs or third party products. Ideally, stunning strike should have some effect on a boss, and that effect should be something other than "deplete a limited pool that isn't used for any other purpose", but it should not be "the boss does nothing". My usual preference is that a boss suffers a penalty, such as replacing one condition with a different one, or spending legendary actions to remove conditions.
Hi,
I trust I am not the only one finding it a bit challenging to make encounters interesting (at least for me, ha, ha) when the monk in the party can almost trivially stun and knock prone any monster in the game unless they have legendary resistance. This problem is just getting bigger as the party members are moving beyond 14 level and the DC to avoid getting stunned or knocked prone is now quite high. I have tried to read everything with small print (figure of speech) to find if it says anywhere that larger monsters can’t be affected this way, but haven’t found anything. Have I missed something or is it really designed to be this way?
Anyway, how are you other DMs managing this issue? It just kind of ruin the fear of dying in a boss fight when the Adult Red Dragon is stunned and knocked prone by the monk in turn one.
At level 14, the monk’s save DC is at max an 18 (8+pb 5+ wis, which could also be a 5 if the monk maxed their wisdom). An adult red dragon has a +13 con save, so it should only need a 5 or higher. I guess with a flurry, the monk has a lot of swings, but still seems like the dragon should pass its save mostly.
Not to just stick with the dragon example, but it can fly. Its bite and tail attack have a 10’ and 15’ reach. It should be able to quite safely stay out of reach of the monk. Dragons should never fight standing still on the ground, that just lets melee characters pull of nova attacks and make quick work of it. Fly, burrow, swim, climb. Move all around.
As far as other monsters, use multiple enemies. The monk stuns one, his allies come and attack the monk.
And there’s just the general idea of multiple encounters. If the monk knows they’re going to have more fights before they can rest, they’ll be hesitant to blow through all their ki points. You don’t even actually have to make them fight, just make them think they might, enough that they want to keep a few points in reserve.
Well, the easy option is to just increase your encounter budgets; an adult red is Hard for 4 PCs and Medium for 5, and for tier 3 PCs that translates as Easy and Trivial (a decent rule of thumb is to multiple suggested encounter budgets by the tier, so double them for tier 2 PCs, triple them for tier 3, quadruple for tier 4).
Thanks for the replies, guys :)
I will mix it up a bit more, then. Maybe I should more frequently disrupt their attempts at resting to get all their mojo back..
Slap a few legendary resistances on monsters, that can generally help. But also don’t do too much to counteract it, or it might annoy the character. Even a few times for important bosses or npcs I’ve given them immunity to the stun condition and the player understood. Idk I haven’t played to many campaigns with monks
I wouldn't mess with interrupting a rest too often. Not saying you should never do it but even doing so a few times will piss off the players.
Just give the monk more things to hit or find a way to impose disadvantage or attack from range or have creatures immune to prone or...
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Since I have the same situation, I have a couple of comments :)
The stun ability of monks is extremely effective.
Some suggestions for occasional use (these should not be used all the time - just to mix it up and provide some additional challenge from time to time)
- legendary saves (add or increase them)
- boost con saves specifically (can justify if you need by having a variant of an existing creature or perhaps they have a potion that temporarily increases con saves?)
- stun immunity (add to some creatures)
- increased number of opponents - include ranged attackers - make it more difficult for the monk to run from one to another - add some interesting terrain/environmental effects - be cautious with this one since it can be very swingy depending on the success of the stuns
Unfortunately, VERY few creatures in the MM are immune to stun and this includes creatures like ghosts, gelatinous cube, ancient dragon, purple worm and many others that either don't have a physical body, have a very large body or have a decentralized body.
----
I'll also mention that, yes, this is a situation that will come up. It is less of a concern for very powerful opponents with legendary saves and a very high base con save. Legendary saves by itself is insufficient since the monk is extremely efficient at burning through such saves if the con save isn't also high.
As an example, consider a Marilith - CR16 with +10 to con saves - no legendaries. A typical monk with 18 wisdom would have a base DC of 16 (level 9+) or 17 (level 13+) which the Marilith fails 25-30% of the time. A level 12 monk has 12 ki to spend on stuns that they can expend on every attack that hits. Spending 3 ki in the first round of combat gives a 60-65% chance of successfully stunning the Marilith. It doesn't take long before that Marilith is stunned becoming a very easy target for the rest of the party - especially since the stun lasts until the end of the monk's next turn. Archmages are actually pretty pathetic against a monk since they only have a +1 on con saves. The odds are good that the Archmage will not be a factor in the combat after a monk manages to attack them.
KI also comes back on a short rest so the Monk is likely to have their full ki for most encounters.
It might be worth looking at the UA version of the monk, as they limited stunning strike to once per turn (there are also multiple buffs, the class isn't weaker, but it might be less oppressive to play against).
For glass cannons like an archmage, though, "meat if the enemy gets within reach" is essentially working as designed.
5e boss design isn't terribly good, you may want custom designs or third party products. Ideally, stunning strike should have some effect on a boss, and that effect should be something other than "deplete a limited pool that isn't used for any other purpose", but it should not be "the boss does nothing". My usual preference is that a boss suffers a penalty, such as replacing one condition with a different one, or spending legendary actions to remove conditions.