I have think they mentioned that they would have the 20 even with point buy because (correct me if I’m wrong) 18 from point buy +2 from Dragonborn is 20. I will try to talk to them about changing their character from rolled so at least they would have some caveat from doing that. I can probably give the others loot once we finish this part of the story, but that’s not as immediate.
If they made a mistake then they should be willing to correct it rather then insisting they would still have the 20 cha stat, personal opinion that the player is doing it intentionally and that things are going to get alot worse as their character reaches higher levels...
May I ask
if that player is also new (willing to learn from and correct the "mistake") or an experienced player (exploiting your lack of experience)?
Are they willing to walk you through the process of how they would get to 20cha at LVL 2??
How much damage per turn is their eldritch blast doing?
You mentioned stones, were they the ioun stone?
Which eldritch invocation seems unbalanced?
I also assume character was made with 2014 choices since they got stats from being Dragonborn, if that is the case then they don't get to double dip and get stats from background. Just incase.
The problem isn't that the warlock is a different kind of player. The problem is that the warlock doesn't care that he's siphoning fun from the party.
I come from an older school, where party imbalance was just part of the game. And everyone still found opportunities opportunities to shine. The warlock is grandstanding... A minmaxer upstaging the other players to make it his show. All I'm suggesting is a chance for him lean on the other players for a few encounters... At least until the rest of the party gains some footing and feels involved.
Yes, that is the magic stone spell. The invocations just seem overall, but looking at that they only get two, it seems a bit more reasonable. The comment about the crossbow makes sense with repelling blast and agonizing blast, but it feels like instant damage for free. With fixing some of the scores, it seems more reasonable. +5ish or whatever to hit just seems crazy to me. I believe they are a newer player, although they may have more experience than me.
Yes, that is the magic stone spell. The invocations just seem overall, but looking at that they only get two, it seems a bit more reasonable. The comment about the crossbow makes sense with repelling blast and agonizing blast, but it feels like instant damage for free. With fixing some of the scores, it seems more reasonable. +5ish or whatever to hit just seems crazy to me. I believe they are a newer player, although they may have more experience than me.
They should have a +7 to hit if their ability score is +5. +5 to hit is what you expect a level 1-3 character to have with very minimal optimizing.
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
Yes, it was 7 I think. I think we/I will go through and make sure that their choices are satisfied while they still have a character that is following the rules and all. Warlock does seem like a good class, but mixing 5e and 2024 is confusing us both.
Yes, that is the magic stone spell. The invocations just seem overall, but looking at that they only get two, it seems a bit more reasonable. The comment about the crossbow makes sense with repelling blast and agonizing blast, but it feels like instant damage for free. With fixing some of the scores, it seems more reasonable. +5ish or whatever to hit just seems crazy to me. I believe they are a newer player, although they may have more experience than me.
Also just to say - Agonizing Blast isn't instant damage for free. They still need to roll to hit first. I'm sure that's accounted for, but just in case.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Or, you could give him a taste of his own medicine. I absolutely don't recommend this, but if all else fails, then who knows.
Create encounters that play to the strengths of the other characters, and more or less hard-counter your warlock. Intentionally, put them in situations where the warlock feels useless.
Focus fire - the monsters/opposition obviously recognize the warlock as the biggest threat, so they take him/her out first.
Action economy - Stun them. Paralyze them. Banish them. Slow them. Go for the hamstrings.
Cheat - Make them functionally worse through targeted resistance or immunities. Sometimes the only way make to make people understand, is by making them feel it.
Again, this is kinda toxic. But sometimes, fire has to be fought with fire.
I feel like this is upside down - lets nerf the good player so the bad players feel good about being bad.
Not allowing players to roll stats - is not fair to the player. It's almost impossible to play a MAD class with point buy with any degree of actual ability to use all the skills that are derived from disparate stats. At a minimum I use Heroic Array (17,16.15.14.12.10) if I make a table use array at all.
If the player came by his stats honestly and he is a better player than the rest at the table then the answer is to teach the other players to be more effective - not nerf the player that puts thought into his stats and skills and spell choices.
So, I actually don't think the problem here is with the Warlock.
You mentioned all your players are newish to the hobby, and it could be that rather than the Warlock being massively overpowered, it's possible that everyone else's lack of experience is causing them not to fully utilize their character's abilities. The Warlock is pretty simple in combat due to the spell slot shortage: turn 1 you slap down a big concentration spell and on subsequent turns you eldritch blast while maintaining concentration-- so it's understandable that the easier-to-understand playstyle seems more powerful than say, a Battlemaster Fighter or Horizon Walker Ranger, which have a lot of fiddly action/bonus action interactions and reaction stuff that new players might miss.
I think you should encourage the rest of your players to spend time learning about their class and maybe listening to a DND livestream to, over time, better internalize an understanding of the rules.
I feel like this is upside down - lets nerf the good player so the bad players feel good about being bad.
Not allowing players to roll stats - is not fair to the player. It's almost impossible to play a MAD class with point buy with any degree of actual ability to use all the skills that are derived from disparate stats. At a minimum I use Heroic Array (17,16.15.14.12.10) if I make a table use array at all.
If the player came by his stats honestly and he is a better player than the rest at the table then the answer is to teach the other players to be more effective - not nerf the player that puts thought into his stats and skills and spell choices.
There is also the issue of what the other players WANT out of the game. I ran one recently where 3/4 players were building their character level by level by what felt "right" in the moment and for the story. XYZ happened so Cleric felt it would make sense to take THIS feat in reaction. The Ranger wanted to do THIS because it looked cool and took THAT feet. One character minmaxed and became a machine in combat pretty much doing all roles better than anyone else at the table.
Was this a place where the rest of the players needed to "get good"? My take is that if 4/5 people at the table don't want to play a certain way, then the 1/5 of the people are the ones expected to adjust. Not the other way around....
Yes, it was 7 I think. I think we/I will go through and make sure that their choices are satisfied while they still have a character that is following the rules and all. Warlock does seem like a good class, but mixing 5e and 2024 is confusing us both.
Welcome to the game and these forums. :) ... I'd be interested to hear how this turned out.
From the sounds of it, I suspect neither the DM nor the players are all that familiar with the rules - including the warlock player.
For example, you appear to be combining stat increases from species published in earlier books with stat increases from backgrounds in the 2024 rules instead of using one or the other. The simple rule for stat increases at character creation is +2 to one stat and +1 to a different stat or +1 to three different stats. The rules in Mordenkainen's, Tasha's and the 2024 PHB are all consistent with that but 2024 attached the specific increases with the backgrounds rather than species. It would be pretty easy for new DMs or players to misinterpret that.
However, in terms of balance, between a level 2 rogue, monk, barbarian, wizard and warlock - there is no way that the warlock should be dominating combat unless something else is going on - even with a 20 charisma, agonizing blast only does d10+5 - a warlock could add hex using a spell slot to this for an extra d6 which is an average of 14 damage if they hit. The monk gets two attacks, the rogue gets sneak attack. The barbarian gets reckless attack. If you are playing 2024, the rogue and barbarian get weapon masteries. Even if they only have 16 in their primary stat they should STILL be contributing significantly to every combat. The warlock is good but they just aren't that much better. If you rolled stats and the players are inexperienced then perhaps everyone rolled poorly and might have assigned the stats in a less than ideal way ... wizard should have high intelligence, rogue should have high dexterity, a monk should have a high dexterity then wisdom, a barbarian is high strength, followed by con, followed by dexterity. If these folks created characters with a 12 or 14 in their main stats needed to be effective combatants then a warlock using a 20 would be +3 or +4 better. In that case, the difference could be noticeable but the problem is as much the other characters as it is the warlock. It's also possible that some of the players are missing the rules for their characters or there are other rules the table/DM is missing as well.
If no one has a lot of experience with the game, I would suggest only using point buy or standard array for creating your first characters - this prevents really good vs really bad die rolls creating characters that can be very uneven to start. After that, perhaps help each other out to understand how the characters work so that each can feel effective.
In addition, by including challenges other than combat - skills like perception, investigation, stealth, survival - which can be used for various tasks or encounters - this can give the other characters a chance to shine - especially the rogue which has expertise in two skills and typically has more skills than the other classes.
Other things you can keep an eye out for ... the wizard might want to take the Find Familiar spell for example. Having a familiar that can be used to scout or spy can be fun and also gives the wizard an opportunity to shine in some situations. (Owls are a good familiar because they fly and have a trait allowing them to use the Help action in combat while flying past and away from opponents without suffering an opportunity attack).
Anyway, good luck and have fun! It sounds to me that some of the issues you are encountering just have to do with getting used to the game and folks misreading/misinterpreting/misunderstanding some of the rules.
If they made a mistake then they should be willing to correct it rather then insisting they would still have the 20 cha stat, personal opinion that the player is doing it intentionally and that things are going to get alot worse as their character reaches higher levels...
May I ask
I also assume character was made with 2014 choices since they got stats from being Dragonborn, if that is the case then they don't get to double dip and get stats from background. Just incase.
magic stone
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
The problem isn't that the warlock is a different kind of player. The problem is that the warlock doesn't care that he's siphoning fun from the party.
I come from an older school, where party imbalance was just part of the game. And everyone still found opportunities opportunities to shine. The warlock is grandstanding... A minmaxer upstaging the other players to make it his show. All I'm suggesting is a chance for him lean on the other players for a few encounters... At least until the rest of the party gains some footing and feels involved.
My DM Registry
My Campaigns:
Ibahalii Vriwhulth, the Reaper of Glory v2: IC Thread (PbP); Secrets of the Island (On Discord); Lost Mine of Phendelver (tabletop)
My Characters:
Krik-tul, Thri-kreen monk; Mme Cragmaw, Goblin Artificer; River Kuthraeann, Wood Elf Paladin
Yes, that is the magic stone spell. The invocations just seem overall, but looking at that they only get two, it seems a bit more reasonable. The comment about the crossbow makes sense with repelling blast and agonizing blast, but it feels like instant damage for free. With fixing some of the scores, it seems more reasonable. +5ish or whatever to hit just seems crazy to me. I believe they are a newer player, although they may have more experience than me.
They should have a +7 to hit if their ability score is +5. +5 to hit is what you expect a level 1-3 character to have with very minimal optimizing.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Yes, it was 7 I think. I think we/I will go through and make sure that their choices are satisfied while they still have a character that is following the rules and all. Warlock does seem like a good class, but mixing 5e and 2024 is confusing us both.
Also just to say - Agonizing Blast isn't instant damage for free. They still need to roll to hit first. I'm sure that's accounted for, but just in case.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Or, you could give him a taste of his own medicine. I absolutely don't recommend this, but if all else fails, then who knows.
Create encounters that play to the strengths of the other characters, and more or less hard-counter your warlock. Intentionally, put them in situations where the warlock feels useless.
Again, this is kinda toxic. But sometimes, fire has to be fought with fire.
On second thought, don't do this.
I feel like this is upside down - lets nerf the good player so the bad players feel good about being bad.
Not allowing players to roll stats - is not fair to the player. It's almost impossible to play a MAD class with point buy with any degree of actual ability to use all the skills that are derived from disparate stats. At a minimum I use Heroic Array (17,16.15.14.12.10) if I make a table use array at all.
If the player came by his stats honestly and he is a better player than the rest at the table then the answer is to teach the other players to be more effective - not nerf the player that puts thought into his stats and skills and spell choices.
So, I actually don't think the problem here is with the Warlock.
You mentioned all your players are newish to the hobby, and it could be that rather than the Warlock being massively overpowered, it's possible that everyone else's lack of experience is causing them not to fully utilize their character's abilities. The Warlock is pretty simple in combat due to the spell slot shortage: turn 1 you slap down a big concentration spell and on subsequent turns you eldritch blast while maintaining concentration-- so it's understandable that the easier-to-understand playstyle seems more powerful than say, a Battlemaster Fighter or Horizon Walker Ranger, which have a lot of fiddly action/bonus action interactions and reaction stuff that new players might miss.
I think you should encourage the rest of your players to spend time learning about their class and maybe listening to a DND livestream to, over time, better internalize an understanding of the rules.
There is also the issue of what the other players WANT out of the game. I ran one recently where 3/4 players were building their character level by level by what felt "right" in the moment and for the story. XYZ happened so Cleric felt it would make sense to take THIS feat in reaction. The Ranger wanted to do THIS because it looked cool and took THAT feet. One character minmaxed and became a machine in combat pretty much doing all roles better than anyone else at the table.
Was this a place where the rest of the players needed to "get good"? My take is that if 4/5 people at the table don't want to play a certain way, then the 1/5 of the people are the ones expected to adjust. Not the other way around....
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Welcome to the game and these forums. :) ... I'd be interested to hear how this turned out.
From the sounds of it, I suspect neither the DM nor the players are all that familiar with the rules - including the warlock player.
For example, you appear to be combining stat increases from species published in earlier books with stat increases from backgrounds in the 2024 rules instead of using one or the other. The simple rule for stat increases at character creation is +2 to one stat and +1 to a different stat or +1 to three different stats. The rules in Mordenkainen's, Tasha's and the 2024 PHB are all consistent with that but 2024 attached the specific increases with the backgrounds rather than species. It would be pretty easy for new DMs or players to misinterpret that.
However, in terms of balance, between a level 2 rogue, monk, barbarian, wizard and warlock - there is no way that the warlock should be dominating combat unless something else is going on - even with a 20 charisma, agonizing blast only does d10+5 - a warlock could add hex using a spell slot to this for an extra d6 which is an average of 14 damage if they hit. The monk gets two attacks, the rogue gets sneak attack. The barbarian gets reckless attack. If you are playing 2024, the rogue and barbarian get weapon masteries. Even if they only have 16 in their primary stat they should STILL be contributing significantly to every combat. The warlock is good but they just aren't that much better. If you rolled stats and the players are inexperienced then perhaps everyone rolled poorly and might have assigned the stats in a less than ideal way ... wizard should have high intelligence, rogue should have high dexterity, a monk should have a high dexterity then wisdom, a barbarian is high strength, followed by con, followed by dexterity. If these folks created characters with a 12 or 14 in their main stats needed to be effective combatants then a warlock using a 20 would be +3 or +4 better. In that case, the difference could be noticeable but the problem is as much the other characters as it is the warlock. It's also possible that some of the players are missing the rules for their characters or there are other rules the table/DM is missing as well.
If no one has a lot of experience with the game, I would suggest only using point buy or standard array for creating your first characters - this prevents really good vs really bad die rolls creating characters that can be very uneven to start. After that, perhaps help each other out to understand how the characters work so that each can feel effective.
In addition, by including challenges other than combat - skills like perception, investigation, stealth, survival - which can be used for various tasks or encounters - this can give the other characters a chance to shine - especially the rogue which has expertise in two skills and typically has more skills than the other classes.
Other things you can keep an eye out for ... the wizard might want to take the Find Familiar spell for example. Having a familiar that can be used to scout or spy can be fun and also gives the wizard an opportunity to shine in some situations. (Owls are a good familiar because they fly and have a trait allowing them to use the Help action in combat while flying past and away from opponents without suffering an opportunity attack).
Anyway, good luck and have fun! It sounds to me that some of the issues you are encountering just have to do with getting used to the game and folks misreading/misinterpreting/misunderstanding some of the rules.