What I find interesting is how big of a problem morales have become. I mean we used to play a game called Vampire The Masquerade and we were literal evil monsters, yet I don't recall anyone ever having problems with it. I wonder how people react to The World of Darkness today?
The original design philosophy of VtM was that you were expected to be an angsty vampire, not an evil vampire, which was reinforced within the game system via the humanity meter. The degree to which players actually played it that way is debatable, but plenty of people play murder hobos in pretty much every RPG. However, published adventures (in most RPGs) have a predictable pattern of a bad guy doing bad things, and the PCs stopping the bad guy, maybe profiting in the process. This was mostly true in D&D too, other than a small number of early dungeons. The problem is that module B2 is one of that small number, and is also very well known.
What I find interesting is how big of a problem morales have become. I mean we used to play a game called Vampire The Masquerade and we were literal evil monsters, yet I don't recall anyone ever having problems with it. I wonder how people react to The World of Darkness today?
The original design philosophy of VtM was that you were expected to be an angsty vampire, not an evil vampire, which was reinforced within the game system via the humanity meter. The degree to which players actually played it that way is debatable, but plenty of people play murder hobos in pretty much every RPG. However, published adventures (in most RPGs) have a predictable pattern of a bad guy doing bad things, and the PCs stopping the bad guy, maybe profiting in the process. This was mostly true in D&D too, other than a small number of early dungeons. The problem is that module B2 is one of that small number, and is also very well known.
To a point but you were a vampire, you had to drink people's blood, and that required you to assault people in a wide range of what I would call deplorable acts. Whether you did it through directly overpowering people, playing with their minds, or playing with their emotions, no matter how you did it or justified it, by any reasonable moral person's standards you were a predator and committed acts of violence as a normal part of your everyday life.
I think every RPG has some contentious moral grey areas and exploring that darker part of the human condition is what makes for good stories.
I think every RPG has some contentious moral grey areas and exploring that darker part of the human condition is what makes for good stories.
Sure, but a starter adventure is probably not the place to put them.
Perhaps not, Keep on the Borderland is certainly an interesting choice, especially considering the colonial undertones, but I suspect WotC has perhaps let B2 inspire it rather than replicate it. Especially given that we also already have Into The Borderlands, a 5e conversion by Goodman Games.
I agree with your viewpoints that this original module has not described any legal reasons why the Caves of Chaos should be invaded, while killing the Chaos inhabitants and stealing their things. Gary Gygax should have shown these creatures doing, or physical evidence of, their crimes; instead of simply writing the word “Chaos” within their stat blocks.
Thus, please tell us how you would show; instead of telling the Dungeon Master and their players how criminal the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos are.
In the Keep, there are several knowledgeable NPCs that can tell the party that often starving kobolds often eat the bodies of whatever being that they can find.
For example, outside of the kobold cave entrance, there is a stinky trash dump. Fifty feet long, five feet wide, and one to three feet tall; this trash dump has rotting vegetable waste, poop, along with the gnawed bones of ordinary animals, humans and allied races. There are also a few bones recognizable as gnoll, hobgoblin, and orc. Careful questioning allows the party to know that these bodies were taken by the kobolds for their food after tribal warfare battles or by battles between cave inhabitants and adventure parties sent from the Keep.
One paragraph per species should give the Dungeon Master and the players all the information they need to show the party that the inhabitants of the caves are evil.
I agree with your viewpoints that this original module has not described any legal reasons why the Caves of Chaos should be invaded, while killing the Chaos inhabitants and stealing their things. Gary Gygax should have shown these creatures doing, or physical evidence of, their crimes; instead of simply writing the word “Chaos” within their stat blocks.
When Gygax outlines in the Background "the state", as he speaks to "The realm of mankind", he is less talking about the background for the Keep on the Borderland adventure module and more to the general backdrop of D&D as a setting and he is not speaking to Player Character motivations, but to the players themselves. Chaos = Evil, Law = Good, things that are Chaos you can kill. It's intentionally black and white, but again, its not intended as a story for PC's, it's meant to explain to players what they will be doing in Dungeons and Dragons the game.
I think if I was to alter the story behind Keep on the Borderlands (and perhaps this is what we will see in the upcoming starter set based on this module), I would change three things.
1. I would alter the rumor table to reflect the activities of the Caves of Chaos better and be more specific about how they impact the local people. Give the rumors more story and treat them more like events. The existing lacks in any real description and is more like a "hint" table rather than a story element.
2. I would add 2-3 "Events" that transpire while the PC's are in the Keep. A kidnapping, an attack on a local farm or caravan, something like that. Things the players can witness and investigate first-hand.
3. I would give the Evil Priest and his acolytes a purpose, something they are trying to achieve that bleeds into the events and pushes a mystery for the players to uncover and a timeline that puts pressure on the players to stop the Evil Priests. Perhaps they are doing ritual sacrifices to summon a demon or perhaps the priests are raising an army intending to launch a siege against the keep. Something that makes this less a Dungeon Crawl and more a story adventure.
This is of course, assuming that you don't want to have an old school D&D dungeon crawl experience and are trying to turn this module more into a sort of mini campaign with a story.
Here is one way to give your player characters a logical reason to adventure around the Keep of the Borderlands. I would have the king or queen of another tribe of kobolds, who live a seven days journey from the river valley tell the PC party this: “An extended family of kobolds were deceived to move to the Caves of Chaos. Then, once they arrived at the Caves my fellow kobolds were murdered by an evil priest, to be turned into zombie kobolds. I will pay your party four hundred gold coins (can be negotiated to pay up to 800 gold coins) if you destroy all the zombie kobolds for me. Two of my strong bodyguards, Verdad and Falso, will join your group to make sure that all zombie Kobolds are destroyed. My two bodyguards will fight to protect themselves and your party members in a quest setting my friends and family free from their undead existence.”
Thank you for taking the time to post your message here. Your post told me much about the core concepts of the game that I was not aware of. Were you ever a TSR employee or had conservations with them?
Thank you for taking the time to post your message here. Your post told me much about the core concepts of the game that I was not aware of. Were you ever a TSR employee or had conservations with them?
I have met Gary several times over the years at cons and stuff like that, but most of his theories/ideas about the game were largely discussed in old Dragon Magazine articles as well as his many Q&A posts on Dragonfoot forums. There is a whole archive of questions asked and answered by Gygax.
The most interesting articles on the subject of Keep on the Borderlands can be found in the goodman games 5e conversion book "Into the borderlands". That book has a lot of interesting pre-faces and articles about the various people that worked on the module as well as all published versions of it. Its a great read and a fantastic preservation of this all time classic.
Two more ideas for improving Heroes on the Borderlands
First, on the bottom of the ravine area of the Caves of Chaos, have a circle of large stones similar to Stonehenge. Have a mysterious runic letter as tall as the length of an adult human hand, carved on each stone that glows with a dim blue light at nighttime. This circle was once a shrine to a Lawful God. If the shrine is repaired, it will banish the influence of Chaos in the ravine and the surrounding area. Have 1d6 rumors on what this stone circle was used for.
Second, have the Keep be the center of the remains of two stone walls. The first wall starts from the river bank and then ends at the mesa the Keep is built on. On the other side of the mesa, another wall starts at the mesa and then extends to the north, ending about 100 yards south of the tree of the Mad Hermit. Similar in structure to Hadrian's Wall, the wall once protected the river valley from invasion. The stone wall has many gaps in it, by thieves stealing the cut stone to be used to build newer structures. This wall is more than one thousand years old, the remains of a mostly forgotten Lawful kingdom.
The game master should decide the reason or reasons why the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos, especially the weaker species like the Kobolds, attack the player characters’ party?
This species has limited access to food, with limited opportunities for hunting wild animals as well as foraging for wild, edible plants, mushrooms, and nuts. Without dependable meals, they go hungry and are malnourished, decreasing their ability to fight. Therefore, the Kobolds see the player characters as a food source. Play this as a twisted version of the graphic novel and animated series “Delicious in a Dungeon”, with the dungeon monsters seeing the party as food.
In my campaign, the answer that my party came up with was persuading the Kobold King that his tribe should change to Law while becoming sharecropper farmers for the Keep. The Keep is now surrounded by farmland, giving many benefits to the residents of the Keep.
The chief Chaos cleric, who rules by fear and intimidation, told the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos that if they didn’t fight for Chaos; they would become blood sacrifices for a Chaos immortal and then their bodies turned into zombies. Once the chief Chaos cleric is captured or dies, this reason for the Kobolds to fight the party disappears.
The (unnamed) river south of the Keep is wide enough for river boats. This wide river allows the game master to create river pirate adventures for their players. The players can be on the Lawful side and become authorized privateers to hunt down ships supplying the Caves of Chaos with food, weapons, and soldiers.
The original design philosophy of VtM was that you were expected to be an angsty vampire, not an evil vampire, which was reinforced within the game system via the humanity meter. The degree to which players actually played it that way is debatable, but plenty of people play murder hobos in pretty much every RPG. However, published adventures (in most RPGs) have a predictable pattern of a bad guy doing bad things, and the PCs stopping the bad guy, maybe profiting in the process. This was mostly true in D&D too, other than a small number of early dungeons. The problem is that module B2 is one of that small number, and is also very well known.
To a point but you were a vampire, you had to drink people's blood, and that required you to assault people in a wide range of what I would call deplorable acts. Whether you did it through directly overpowering people, playing with their minds, or playing with their emotions, no matter how you did it or justified it, by any reasonable moral person's standards you were a predator and committed acts of violence as a normal part of your everyday life.
I think every RPG has some contentious moral grey areas and exploring that darker part of the human condition is what makes for good stories.
Sure, but a starter adventure is probably not the place to put them.
Perhaps not, Keep on the Borderland is certainly an interesting choice, especially considering the colonial undertones, but I suspect WotC has perhaps let B2 inspire it rather than replicate it. Especially given that we also already have Into The Borderlands, a 5e conversion by Goodman Games.
I agree with your viewpoints that this original module has not described any legal reasons why the Caves of Chaos should be invaded, while killing the Chaos inhabitants and stealing their things. Gary Gygax should have shown these creatures doing, or physical evidence of, their crimes; instead of simply writing the word “Chaos” within their stat blocks.
Thus, please tell us how you would show; instead of telling the Dungeon Master and their players how criminal the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos are.
In the Keep, there are several knowledgeable NPCs that can tell the party that often starving kobolds often eat the bodies of whatever being that they can find.
For example, outside of the kobold cave entrance, there is a stinky trash dump. Fifty feet long, five feet wide, and one to three feet tall; this trash dump has rotting vegetable waste, poop, along with the gnawed bones of ordinary animals, humans and allied races. There are also a few bones recognizable as gnoll, hobgoblin, and orc. Careful questioning allows the party to know that these bodies were taken by the kobolds for their food after tribal warfare battles or by battles between cave inhabitants and adventure parties sent from the Keep.
One paragraph per species should give the Dungeon Master and the players all the information they need to show the party that the inhabitants of the caves are evil.
When Gygax outlines in the Background "the state", as he speaks to "The realm of mankind", he is less talking about the background for the Keep on the Borderland adventure module and more to the general backdrop of D&D as a setting and he is not speaking to Player Character motivations, but to the players themselves. Chaos = Evil, Law = Good, things that are Chaos you can kill. It's intentionally black and white, but again, its not intended as a story for PC's, it's meant to explain to players what they will be doing in Dungeons and Dragons the game.
I think if I was to alter the story behind Keep on the Borderlands (and perhaps this is what we will see in the upcoming starter set based on this module), I would change three things.
1. I would alter the rumor table to reflect the activities of the Caves of Chaos better and be more specific about how they impact the local people. Give the rumors more story and treat them more like events. The existing lacks in any real description and is more like a "hint" table rather than a story element.
2. I would add 2-3 "Events" that transpire while the PC's are in the Keep. A kidnapping, an attack on a local farm or caravan, something like that. Things the players can witness and investigate first-hand.
3. I would give the Evil Priest and his acolytes a purpose, something they are trying to achieve that bleeds into the events and pushes a mystery for the players to uncover and a timeline that puts pressure on the players to stop the Evil Priests. Perhaps they are doing ritual sacrifices to summon a demon or perhaps the priests are raising an army intending to launch a siege against the keep. Something that makes this less a Dungeon Crawl and more a story adventure.
This is of course, assuming that you don't want to have an old school D&D dungeon crawl experience and are trying to turn this module more into a sort of mini campaign with a story.
Here is one way to give your player characters a logical reason to adventure around the Keep of the Borderlands. I would have the king or queen of another tribe of kobolds, who live a seven days journey from the river valley tell the PC party this: “An extended family of kobolds were deceived to move to the Caves of Chaos. Then, once they arrived at the Caves my fellow kobolds were murdered by an evil priest, to be turned into zombie kobolds. I will pay your party four hundred gold coins (can be negotiated to pay up to 800 gold coins) if you destroy all the zombie kobolds for me. Two of my strong bodyguards, Verdad and Falso, will join your group to make sure that all zombie Kobolds are destroyed. My two bodyguards will fight to protect themselves and your party members in a quest setting my friends and family free from their undead existence.”
Thank you for taking the time to post your message here. Your post told me much about the core concepts of the game that I was not aware of. Were you ever a TSR employee or had conservations with them?
I have met Gary several times over the years at cons and stuff like that, but most of his theories/ideas about the game were largely discussed in old Dragon Magazine articles as well as his many Q&A posts on Dragonfoot forums. There is a whole archive of questions asked and answered by Gygax.
The most interesting articles on the subject of Keep on the Borderlands can be found in the goodman games 5e conversion book "Into the borderlands". That book has a lot of interesting pre-faces and articles about the various people that worked on the module as well as all published versions of it. Its a great read and a fantastic preservation of this all time classic.
Two more ideas for improving Heroes on the Borderlands
First, on the bottom of the ravine area of the Caves of Chaos, have a circle of large stones similar to Stonehenge. Have a mysterious runic letter as tall as the length of an adult human hand, carved on each stone that glows with a dim blue light at nighttime. This circle was once a shrine to a Lawful God. If the shrine is repaired, it will banish the influence of Chaos in the ravine and the surrounding area. Have 1d6 rumors on what this stone circle was used for.
Second, have the Keep be the center of the remains of two stone walls. The first wall starts from the river bank and then ends at the mesa the Keep is built on. On the other side of the mesa, another wall starts at the mesa and then extends to the north, ending about 100 yards south of the tree of the Mad Hermit. Similar in structure to Hadrian's Wall, the wall once protected the river valley from invasion. The stone wall has many gaps in it, by thieves stealing the cut stone to be used to build newer structures. This wall is more than one thousand years old, the remains of a mostly forgotten Lawful kingdom.
The game master should decide the reason or reasons why the inhabitants of the Caves of Chaos, especially the weaker species like the Kobolds, attack the player characters’ party?
In my campaign, the answer that my party came up with was persuading the Kobold King that his tribe should change to Law while becoming sharecropper farmers for the Keep. The Keep is now surrounded by farmland, giving many benefits to the residents of the Keep.
The (unnamed) river south of the Keep is wide enough for river boats. This wide river allows the game master to create river pirate adventures for their players. The players can be on the Lawful side and become authorized privateers to hunt down ships supplying the Caves of Chaos with food, weapons, and soldiers.
The most important questions that the new edition of this module should answer are this: