False Appearence has no effect on Stealth whatsoever. It doesn't hide your position or make you invisible and silent, it makes you indistinguishable from a normal item. In fact, for this feature to really have any meaningful impact in the game, it must be seen.
Exactly. It does make them stealthy, they probably won't even by trying to sneak. (Other than blending in)
When the player enter the area with a hidden monster I don't include the monster when I'm describing the area. When the players enter an area with a monster that has false appearance, I describe in the description so the players know it's there, but I describe it as it's false appearance.
I'd say it's camouflaged. Stealth is a contest check to become invisible and silent and hide your position. If they intended others to be able to detect them with a such check, they would have said so. No perception check here. It's indistinguishable until it does something that let others distinguish it.
False Appearance says "undetectable" I will take them at their word. As for Surprise? More or less. Initiative must still be rolled, and if the critter doesn't get it, the party stops, stands around, and waits. When the critter's turn comes up, all those who were waiting still get any Reactions they may use.
Ok, sorry for reviving the topic, but I am currently preparing a location that is filled with plant monsters, so I need clarification. The way I figure this might work is that the party would not be able to determine that the plants are monsters with perception until they move or attack, because they look the same as plants. The monsters would still roll a stealth check, against their perception, but that would solely be to determine surprise in the first round. If the characters want to determine if something is a monster instead of a plant, then it would have to be an active perception or investigation check against a stealth roll instead of relying on passive perception.
Does that make sense or is there anything that would contradict it in the rules?
far better to revive an old topic than to start a new one and have all the old advice come out again!
I suggest that the monsters roll with advantage on their stealth, as they aren't getting into position before the party arrives but are instead lying i nwait. That, or simply give them a DC to spot that's higher than the highest passive perception in the party - say, if the highest Passive perception is 15, make it DC 17 to see through them.
If the party does anything to try and see that the monsters are monsters, then you have the DC for them to use. If they don't then they won't see them automatically (which is what my takeaway from "indistinguishable" is). If they perform tests (such as chopping at a branch or scraping the bark) then it might just outright start combat. If they just look really hard, they might see some movement - something to alert them that there's something there - but they won't suddenly see a monster stood pretending to be a tree. They might hear movement in the branches above, and may take that to mean something is in the tree, rather than the tree is moving itself!
If you don't know it's a monster, you don't know it's a monster. You can plainly see it, it's not hiding.
Roll initiative and start your first turn surprised.
It's meant to be scary. It's meant to keep you from getting your setup turn, to catch you out of your ideal formation. Maybe even to kill someone. There's a whole bunch of features and spells that only work if someone dies, after all. ;)
If there is no way to visually distinguish a plant from a monster then the characters can't succeed at a perception check since there is nothing to see/hear or sense that would indicate that these are monsters.
However, depending on the intelligence of the creatures, they might or might not wait for the entire party to get in range before attacking. As soon as one of these creatures moves or does something unnatural it will be obvious that it is not a regular plant. This is where surprise and initiative come into play.
If the characters have not been scouting using fire or by casting spells/arrows into random plants then as soon as the creatures are going to attack everyone rolls initiative and the party is surprised. Play it out from there.
On the other hand, a group I was with, started sending firebolts into random rock formations and plants underground after we had an encounter with a roper. Hitting a creature with damage is very likely to elicit a reaction that reveals the nature of the creature.
Once the monster attacks false appearance no longer works. The monster make a stealth check if it moves and hides after attacking! Remember that in the dark the players have -5 to passive perception and disadvantage on all perception checks if they have no light source. I know what all my players passive perception are so I don't have to ask them and this tells me that even without a stealth check the passive stealth is going to win. This speeds up play lots
The number of monsters that can hide on the same turn that they attack is pretty small. And I don't think it overlaps at all with the list that has the False Appearance trait. But yes.
My party just ran into a roper and it attacked us, false appearance triggered a surprise round for our party. The gloom stalker ranger has the alert feat and beat out the roper in initiative. DM ruled he is unaware of the roper during his turn, which was before the roper attacked. I rarely argue a dms ruling, but did take issue with this as it essentially punishes the only character not to be surprised FOR rolling a higher initiative than the creature causing surprise. Furthermore, almost anytime npcs and/or monsters cause surprise is likely due to ambush, which involves some kind of unseen or unnoticeable trait. The dm’s ruling makes alert terrible, in my opinion, and initiative was triggered by the roper, therefore everybody knows it’s a monster attacking when initiative is rolled, it’s just that surprised PCs are surprised for a round. Am I wrong to think the gloomstalker should have been able to attack first?
Note, if you are going to let characters perceive false appearance, I would rule that on a natural 1, they falsely think that a normal object is the creature.
The way I interpret is that when you look at it, it appears as the object that the rules state. This does not mean that it is hidden but that when described you say it " looks like x" its not like players have to roll to see it as an object, you simply describe it as one of the objects in the room. I'd also say there is no check you could make by examining the creature to determine it is not an object but that doesn't mean you can indirectly notice its presence. You could make a check to find tracks or identify it's lair but there is no check a player could make that would make me say "this suit of armor is an animated armor" but they might see a dead body who has been pummelled and tracks in blood leading to one of the suits of armor.
My party just ran into a roper and it attacked us, false appearance triggered a surprise round for our party. The gloom stalker ranger has the alert feat and beat out the roper in initiative. DM ruled he is unaware of the roper during his turn, which was before the roper attacked. I rarely argue a dms ruling, but did take issue with this as it essentially punishes the only character not to be surprised FOR rolling a higher initiative than the creature causing surprise. Furthermore, almost anytime npcs and/or monsters cause surprise is likely due to ambush, which involves some kind of unseen or unnoticeable trait. The dm’s ruling makes alert terrible, in my opinion, and initiative was triggered by the roper, therefore everybody knows it’s a monster attacking when initiative is rolled, it’s just that surprised PCs are surprised for a round. Am I wrong to think the gloomstalker should have been able to attack first?
The correct response by the DM would be that the ranger saw the roper start to move and reacted instinctively - so the ranger gets in the first attack as the roper is still moving a tentacle/thing towards its intended victim.
yeah, all actions in a round happen kind of simultaneously so it doesn't matter that the roper hadn't taken an action yet in the non canonical time of combat turns because canonically they were in the process of acting. The ranger also can't be surprised and being unable to see the enemy and therefore act sounds allot like being surprised without the condition which is unfair given they took a feat for it.
I'd say it's camouflaged. Stealth is a contest check to become invisible and silent and hide your position. If they intended others to be able to detect them with a such check, they would have said so. No perception check here. It's indistinguishable until it does something that let others distinguish it.
False appearance does not require a stealth check! It will surprise the victim every time. End of story!
False Appearance says "undetectable" I will take them at their word. As for Surprise? More or less. Initiative must still be rolled, and if the critter doesn't get it, the party stops, stands around, and waits. When the critter's turn comes up, all those who were waiting still get any Reactions they may use.
<Insert clever signature here>
Ok, sorry for reviving the topic, but I am currently preparing a location that is filled with plant monsters, so I need clarification. The way I figure this might work is that the party would not be able to determine that the plants are monsters with perception until they move or attack, because they look the same as plants. The monsters would still roll a stealth check, against their perception, but that would solely be to determine surprise in the first round. If the characters want to determine if something is a monster instead of a plant, then it would have to be an active perception or investigation check against a stealth roll instead of relying on passive perception.
Does that make sense or is there anything that would contradict it in the rules?
far better to revive an old topic than to start a new one and have all the old advice come out again!
I suggest that the monsters roll with advantage on their stealth, as they aren't getting into position before the party arrives but are instead lying i nwait. That, or simply give them a DC to spot that's higher than the highest passive perception in the party - say, if the highest Passive perception is 15, make it DC 17 to see through them.
If the party does anything to try and see that the monsters are monsters, then you have the DC for them to use. If they don't then they won't see them automatically (which is what my takeaway from "indistinguishable" is). If they perform tests (such as chopping at a branch or scraping the bark) then it might just outright start combat. If they just look really hard, they might see some movement - something to alert them that there's something there - but they won't suddenly see a monster stood pretending to be a tree. They might hear movement in the branches above, and may take that to mean something is in the tree, rather than the tree is moving itself!
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If you don't know it's a monster, you don't know it's a monster. You can plainly see it, it's not hiding.
Roll initiative and start your first turn surprised.
It's meant to be scary. It's meant to keep you from getting your setup turn, to catch you out of your ideal formation. Maybe even to kill someone. There's a whole bunch of features and spells that only work if someone dies, after all. ;)
If there is no way to visually distinguish a plant from a monster then the characters can't succeed at a perception check since there is nothing to see/hear or sense that would indicate that these are monsters.
However, depending on the intelligence of the creatures, they might or might not wait for the entire party to get in range before attacking. As soon as one of these creatures moves or does something unnatural it will be obvious that it is not a regular plant. This is where surprise and initiative come into play.
If the characters have not been scouting using fire or by casting spells/arrows into random plants then as soon as the creatures are going to attack everyone rolls initiative and the party is surprised. Play it out from there.
On the other hand, a group I was with, started sending firebolts into random rock formations and plants underground after we had an encounter with a roper. Hitting a creature with damage is very likely to elicit a reaction that reveals the nature of the creature.
Once the monster attacks false appearance no longer works. The monster make a stealth check if it moves and hides after attacking! Remember that in the dark the players have -5 to passive perception and disadvantage on all perception checks if they have no light source. I know what all my players passive perception are so I don't have to ask them and this tells me that even without a stealth check the passive stealth is going to win. This speeds up play lots
The number of monsters that can hide on the same turn that they attack is pretty small. And I don't think it overlaps at all with the list that has the False Appearance trait. But yes.
My party just ran into a roper and it attacked us, false appearance triggered a surprise round for our party. The gloom stalker ranger has the alert feat and beat out the roper in initiative. DM ruled he is unaware of the roper during his turn, which was before the roper attacked. I rarely argue a dms ruling, but did take issue with this as it essentially punishes the only character not to be surprised FOR rolling a higher initiative than the creature causing surprise. Furthermore, almost anytime npcs and/or monsters cause surprise is likely due to ambush, which involves some kind of unseen or unnoticeable trait. The dm’s ruling makes alert terrible, in my opinion, and initiative was triggered by the roper, therefore everybody knows it’s a monster attacking when initiative is rolled, it’s just that surprised PCs are surprised for a round. Am I wrong to think the gloomstalker should have been able to attack first?
Note, if you are going to let characters perceive false appearance, I would rule that on a natural 1, they falsely think that a normal object is the creature.
The way I interpret is that when you look at it, it appears as the object that the rules state. This does not mean that it is hidden but that when described you say it " looks like x" its not like players have to roll to see it as an object, you simply describe it as one of the objects in the room. I'd also say there is no check you could make by examining the creature to determine it is not an object but that doesn't mean you can indirectly notice its presence. You could make a check to find tracks or identify it's lair but there is no check a player could make that would make me say "this suit of armor is an animated armor" but they might see a dead body who has been pummelled and tracks in blood leading to one of the suits of armor.
The correct response by the DM would be that the ranger saw the roper start to move and reacted instinctively - so the ranger gets in the first attack as the roper is still moving a tentacle/thing towards its intended victim.
yeah, all actions in a round happen kind of simultaneously so it doesn't matter that the roper hadn't taken an action yet in the non canonical time of combat turns because canonically they were in the process of acting. The ranger also can't be surprised and being unable to see the enemy and therefore act sounds allot like being surprised without the condition which is unfair given they took a feat for it.
It's much simpler than many seem to be making it.
The end.
Not the end, since you haven't described the next steps of the fight starting - rolling initiative, being surprised, acting before the roper, etc.