NB that I have not used Realm Works yet, only viewed the site and some YouTube videos, but the biggest thing holding me back from switching over--beisdes not being able to afford it right now--is that the way things seem to be organized does not mesh well with my brain. I look at that screenshot, and I literally feel overwhelmed--particularly by the two columns on either side, but even the ribbon across the top and the tabs that are open as well. I'm not saying this would be the case for anyone who doesn't have a brain who works in the same stupid, atypical way mine does, or that I wouldn't get used to it over time. But a significant barrier to me signing up is what seems like would be sensory overload/inaccessibility due to the way my brain works. So I guess my question is, how customizable is the GUI, and are there any plans to make it more customizable? The best thing about OneNote for me--and part of why I switched over from Trello, which I still feel is an excellent tool--is that I can organize things however I want, in a way that's best for me. A one-stop-shop like Realm Works (or whatever DDB cooks up eventually) is incredibly appealing, but I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who looks at that screenshot and feels a sort of panic at the amount of information.
NB that I have not used Realm Works yet, only viewed the site and some YouTube videos, but the biggest thing holding me back from switching over--beisdes not being able to afford it right now--is that the way things seem to be organized does not mesh well with my brain. I look at that screenshot, and I literally feel overwhelmed--particularly by the two columns on either side, but even the ribbon across the top and the tabs that are open as well. I'm not saying this would be the case for anyone who doesn't have a brain who works in the same stupid, atypical way mine does, or that I wouldn't get used to it over time. But a significant barrier to me signing up is what seems like would be sensory overload/inaccessibility due to the way my brain works. So I guess my question is, how customizable is the GUI, and are there any plans to make it more customizable? The best thing about OneNote for me--and part of why I switched over from Trello, which I still feel is an excellent tool--is that I can organize things however I want, in a way that's best for me. A one-stop-shop like Realm Works (or whatever DDB cooks up eventually) is incredibly appealing, but I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who looks at that screenshot and feels a sort of panic at the amount of information.
It doesn't mesh at all. I'm pretty sure I've had this very conversation with him before since its the very same images and sales pitch that popup whenever a DM tries to talk about Onenote. To put it bluntly, Realm Works is a cluttered mess with no effort put into organizing and displaying its notes. Sure it links everything automatically, but that's part of the problem:
For one, you don't want a name to always be turned into a link each and every time that appears. A paragraph can mention a name repeatedly, but if every instance of that name becomes a link then the result is a mess.
Secondly, Dungeons and Dragons can use a lot of mundane words for entries like spell names or NPC types. If I type "the stone gargoyle that stood guard over this gate has been knocked over by a recent earthquake and lays shattered on the floor"", it seems very likely to return six links that were not at all intended when writing the room description. You can actually see it happening in the first image that was posted (The Temple of the Black Earth), where several of those words have been unintentionally turned into links despite their context. It doesn't make the notes easier to navigate and run, all this does is create camouflage for useful words to get lost in. It also makes me wonder how it behaves when several entries might share the same name (like how acolyte or noble can refer to NPC types and player backgrounds), or when one name is made up of several words from other entries belonging to other entries (Tabaxi Minstrel, Strahd's Animated Armor, Strahd Zombie, Minotaur Skeleton, etc).
Beyond that, the text itself is very basic which does it no favors. Headers don't stand out at all, and there's no proper spacing to be found anywhere. It completely disregards the idea that there's an actual art behind displaying information in a way that can direct eyes exactly where they need to go. I look at it's toolbar and I don't see anything remotely related to formatting (by comparison, even the reply box on this forum looks significantly more advanced).
Onenote may not have been built specifically with DMs in mind, but it was built specifically for organizing an entire notebook of notes and for quickly displaying those words in proper, beautiful, usefully formatted ways. And for that reason Onenote was built for DMs, and becomes far valuable for anyone who cares about their notes. And as a bonus, formatted text can be pasted into other programs that care about it as well. Here's a tale of three Blue Water Inns:
Two of these Inns are easy to navigate, pleasing to read, customizable to your liking, and free to use. The other is a sea of blue links in every paragraph, costs $50 and requires an additional subscription for its cloud services.
the biggest thing holding me back from switching over is that the way things seem to be organized does not mesh well with my brain. I look at that screenshot, and I literally feel overwhelmed--particularly by the two columns on either side, but even the ribbon across the top and the tabs that are open as well. How customizable is the GUI, and are there any plans to make it more customizable?
Sounds like your brain works the opposite of mine ;) I found the freedom to arrange things in OneNote to be frustrating and time consuming. I like structure. I spent more time playing with the layout and linking than I did prepping the actual content. I like that Realm Works has built in templates for all the things I need to document and I like that every time I use that template things are laid out in exactly the same way every time. I use OneNote daily btw. I love it. It's just not as powerful for managing campaign information.
You can't really customize the GUI and granted it is a busy GUI. There is a lot functionality built into Realm Works so they have tried to make that functionality available where you need it. You can hide that panel on the right which is something I used to do. It's become a feature I reply on now though. Instead of having to read through the content to find something I know is linked somewhere on the page I find myself simply scanning the panel and clicking an option to open that topic.
For example: When I am prepping I scan through each page that I know were are going to be running for the little green creature icon. That tell's me that the listed monster will be involved and I run off and brag the associated minis from my shelf.
I believe we have spoken previously MichaelIT. I do love a good discussion about campaign manager tools. I've tried as many as I can get my hands on and love to hear about what others are using and why. Granted I have found something that works wonders for me but appreciate that it will not work for everyone.
For one, you don't want a name to always be turned into a link each and every time that appears. A paragraph can mention a name repeatedly, but if every instance of that name becomes a link then the result is a mess.
Secondly, Dungeons and Dragons can use a lot of mundane words for entries like spell names or NPC types. If I type "the stone gargoylethat stood guard over this gate has been knocked over by a recent earthquake and lays shattered on the floor"", it seems very likely to return six links that were not at all intended when writing the room description. You can actually see it happening in the first image that was posted (The Temple of the Black Earth), where several of those words have been unintentionally turned into links despite their context. It doesn't make the notes easier to navigate and run, all this does is create camouflage for useful words to get lost in. It also makes me wonder how it behaves when several entries might share the same name (like how acolyte or noble can refer to NPC types and player backgrounds), or when one name is made up of several words from other entries belonging to other entries (Tabaxi Minstrel, Strahd's Animated Armor, Strahd Zombie, Minotaur Skeleton, etc).
You are absolutely correct and granted the screenshot you are referring to was made years ago within my largest realm (nearing on 7,000 topics!). We used to work from a single realm to avoid having to input things like spells and monsters again which ultimately led to many double ups and redundant linking. Now that we can import and export content from one realm to another that’s no longer an issue though. I typically setup one realm per campaign now where previously I was running 3 individual groups through 3 individual adventure modules using the same realm with upwards of 10 different adventures entered into the single realm. It was a complete mess.
The tool however offers multiple ways to manage the linking. As you can see I’ve been rather lazy in the past and just hit save and let it go. I’m not the type that’s personally bothered by the excessive linking although I have had to change my approach since I started doing data entry for 3 party companies.
In regards to linking there are two settings.
Auto Accept which auto accepts all links it finds unless it comes across a duplicate in which it prompts the user for a choice.
No Auto Accept which prompts the user to choose which links are accepted and applied. This gives you complete control over the linking and takes very little time to scan and complete the linking on each page.
This window is what appears should you have it set to No Auto Accept or is a duplicate topic is found. Here you can see it has found the Orc creature and the Orc language and is requesting user input on which if any topic to link to.
Another option that I find quite efficient is to turn on Auto Accept and then scan the links once complete for redundant links and just right click on a link and select Remove Link. I find this a lot quicker than having to read the topic and decide on what need to be linked to what.
Beyond that, the text itself is very basic which does it no favors. Headers don't stand out at all, and there's no proper spacing to be found anywhere. It completely disregards the idea that there's an actual art behind displaying information in a way that can direct eyes exactly where they need to go. I look at it's toolbar and I don't see anything remotely related to formatting (by comparison, even the reply box on this forum looks significantly more advanced).
Onenote may not have been built specifically with DMs in mind, but it was built specifically for organizing an entire notebook of notes and for quickly displaying those words in proper, beautiful, usefully formatted ways. And for that reason Onenote was built for DMs, and becomes far valuable for anyone who cares about their notes. And as a bonus, formatted text can be pasted into other programs that care about it as well.
This is again user choice. Formatting is not something I am personally concerned about. It’s just like MS Word though in you can format text however you like. There is the ability to set the styles of default text at a global level. This then applies to all text formatted in the default way.
Or you can do exactly as you do in Word and format it however you like. In the screenshot below you can see the format tab that display's when editing a topic. It has pretty much all of the functionality most users would use from a text editor.
You can therefore create your own headers should you wish to style it however you like. You don’t need to separate everything into individual snippets like I have done. Could just put it in a single text box and colour it manually like you have done but the snippets play into the more advanced functionality that allows you to share content with the players so I choose to use them as intended. Once LWD release the web view I will use this functionality a lot I suspect as my player's will be able to access what I share with them from any device.
From what I can tell Realm Works looks easier to navigate to be honest. Just open the map itself as the navigation panel while the players are in the building and click a pin. You retain visibility on the map and the text specific to the room there are searching load on the right. It doesn’t get easier than this. There's no need to scroll up and down through excessive lists of info. Just click a room and read that rooms description from the top to bottom.
If I was playing via VTT I would not likely be using Realm Works. I’d switch to something like Fantasy Grounds as the tool is better designer for the specific purpose of playing over the internet. I suspect you do the same thing, Roll20 for online play and OneNote for @table play?
The concern of cost is justified. For some $50 is a lot of money. I personally think it was an incredibly valuable purchase. In regards to the subscription though:
Subscription is frozen, I’ve never paid it once. It will likely be turned back on at some stage once they release the content market so that could be soon.
Subscription is optional. You only need to pay the subscription if you want to back up your data to their servers and in order to allow players to connect to your realm using the player version of the application. It's yet to be seen how this will all work once they release the Web View.
I can see that the visual layout and formatting is more important to you than it is for me. My focus is always going to be on using the tool which provides the better functionality to run and manage my games in the most efficient way possible. I could put the effort into making it prettier but I don’t need it to be pretty and my time is better spent putting more content into the tool.
The reply box on this forum is a prime example of a tool I would avoid. It look’s pretty but it’s absolutely painful to use. The quote system is way too difficult to work with to the extent that it’s easier to write this response in word than it is in the reply box and to avoid using quotes at all.
I’ll take increased and easy to use functionality any day over something that visually appealing.
On top of how the tool looks and feels it's about to become a lot useful and time efficient for DMs also. Once they release the content to the Content Market people won't need to input large chunks of data themselves. Just input the 5e SRD for example and instantly you have god knows how many monsters and spells loaded into the tool and ready to start using with no extra effort.
I'm excited to see what comes next. The community are already starting to share their creations and everyday I see DM's building upon their world with content they have created mixed with content others have shared.
Where Realm Works is really going to shine is with people documenting entire worlds. Check out this Greyhawk realm that Anna Meyer is working on. It's the sort of content I'd love to have just so I can read up and learn more about the world.
Again, I'm not saying OneNote is a bad tool. I do use it every single day. I just think Realm Works is better suited to the role of Campaign Management and offers a host of functionality that I think a lot of DM's would find bloody useful, which is ultimately why I get involved in these discussions. The more the Realm Works community grows the further the tool and its features will grow in the future. And... hopefully WOTC will get on board with a license if they see people using and enjoying it.
I wont lie, all that post did for me was make RW look even more cluttered and needlessly complex for campaign management. It was nice to see that it actually has a toolbar for formatting text, but is it tucked away or something? The format tab doesn't appear in most images here or when I google for images of the program. And when I do look around the web for screenshots of how other people use it, they all seem to ignore presentation as well in order to showcase content that is every bit as noisy and cluttered as the user interface itself is. Saying it is somehow efficient just reminds me of when someone has a messy room or desk, but they insist it is fine just because its their own mess and so they know where to find things. Ultimately I'm left with the impression that many of these features are an attempt to compensate for the program's core disregard for the fundamentals of design, just after-thought solutions to problems that only exist because the program created them in the first place. A VTT might need room pinning because by their design they focus more on the tabletop map than they do on displaying campaign notes. Meanwhile a clutter-free program built entirely around organizing and displaying notes doesn't need it because it can already let you see the map and the relevant notes on the same screen at the same time.
And if you're having troubles formatting text on the forum for whatever reason, you can always format a post in Onenote and copy and paste it in here :P
The formatting tab only appears when you are editing something that can be formatted. Works the same as OneNote does when you are messing with a table. Make's sense that people wouldn't be taking screenshots of pages they are currently editing. I know the dev's are aware of your concerns around the visual appeal as I've spoken with them about the subject but that's a conversation for another day due to an active nda.
I can see why someone who's not used the tool would have information overload. There's alot happening on that Greyhawk screenshot above for example but once you understand it it's very easy to use. I personally feel that Realm Works shines with more data. It would be incredibly challenging to structure and manage the sheet amount of data that goes into a whole campaign world for example. When I see that screenshot above I just want to keep reading and clicking the links to learn more about the topics it's referencing. Love that I can easily see the time-line and at a glance know when the world changing events have occured.
A big difference between Realm Works and OneNote goes into the more advanced features. You and I have discussed the formatting and layout because they are where the similarities between the two programs lie. Realm Works obviously provides more detailed functionality designed specifically for table top RPG's. The ability to share the information with the players for example.
Player View - This allows you to connect a duel screen to your PC and right click on images and send them to the Player View. That's my setup above. Not everyone has the ability to set this up but it's a huge draw for my players. I show them pictures of npcs, monsters, magic items, locations, anything. The monitor hanging from the roof that's facing the players is where Realm Works is setup to output the Player View to. So using the example below the left part of the screenshot is what the players see on their screen while the right is what I see.
Another method of sharing is using the Player Edition of the tool. Players can use the tool to login to your realm and see the information you have shared with them. That's what those little green circles are next to the snippets in the screenshot above and the reason for breaking all the text into snippets in the first place. If my players were to login they would only see the topics and specific snippets that I have allowed them to view. Now my player's don't use this, they prefer to play the old school way and receive the info from me directly and take their own notes. It's a cool idea though that I imagine some groups would find this useful.
Both of the way's to share stuff with the players allows you to use things like Player Maps with GM Map overlays. This ensure you as the DM always see the full version of the map but the players don't see any spoilers should you share a map with either of these methods. There's also fog of war. Some people use this as a VTT but personally I just use it as a visual tracker of what the player's have discovered. My player's quite like it when I throw a dungeon map up on the screen giving them an over-view of what they have seen so far.
Here the player's have found a magic item but have yet to discover the history or all the abilities of the item. I personally just use the snippets to keep track of what they have learnt since my player's choose not to use the Player Version but you could use it in a way that the player's can login and see only what they know.
Here's some more features it offers.
Flow charts can be used to map out your more complex adventure paths. The nodes can be connected to topics allowing you to navigate content using the flow chart should you choose. Obviously One Note integrates with Visio but it's not the same as having the functionality built directly into the tool.
Automatic relationship maps to keep track of who's married to who and how many children they have.
Web View to show a kind of mind map. This shows all the links and connections from one topic to the next allowing you to double click a node to change focus.
As I said above though. For me the appeal is functionality over pretty. I can see your mind looking at some of these screenshots and reeling in disgust lol. Personally though I know exactly where everything is and most things that I need are rarely more than a single click away from the topic i'm viewing at the time. I love that I can use all the features should I need them, all within the same tool. That's a huge part of the appeal for me.
Anyway, just replying at this stage for the sake of keeping the conversation going ;) must be time to go home.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my concerns. I really appreciate it, and I feel that you really heard and responded to my concerns, and that means a lot because a lot of times these things just become big arguments.
The one thing I would like to say--and this probably gets down to everyone's brains working differently--but I really think that the form vs. function dichotomy you establish is artificial. While RW is more efficient for you than OneNote, it seems very much that this would not be the case for me, because in this case form and function and inextricably linked. If the information is presented in a manner that is confusing or difficult to read or cluttered, the program presenting that information ceases to be functional for me at all. So it's not just about "making things look pretty," but literally about using form to improve function. I appreciate that OneNote's almost endless customizability is too much for you--I can see how it'd be easy to get lost down that particular rabbit hole. And while I appreciate and am glad to hear that for you, you want the program that gets the job done for you and has the most functionality and how the information is presented doesn't matter as much to you, for someone like me, the presentation is about far more than aesthetics--it's about accessibility. And this is a point that I wish the developers of these tools would take note of. Something like OneNote has to be accessible, because of how broad the MS userbase is. Often times companies that cater to smaller, more niche markets such as TTRPGers don't realize that some of those same concerns about accessibility actually create barriers. So while they may not think it's important to incorporate certain elements, it actually means that a number of gamers are never going to use their product because it's not designed with them in mind, even a little bit.
And at the end of the day? That's fine. I don't have to use RW and you don't have to use OneNote, you know? I would absolutely love for there to be a program that offers the best of both worlds--because you're right, RW offers a heck of a lot of features that aren't going to be incorporated into a program that isn't designed specifically for DMs of TTPRGs. Maybe DDB's campaign manager will help to split the difference some, or maybe RW will make some tweaks at some point, or maybe something else entirely will come along that just blows all the other options out of the water. Until then, I'll stick with OneNote--even though it can't do all that other cool stuff that RW can do--because for me, and for a lot of people, form and function are one and the same.
I suppose what it comes down (and I may be repeating some of what jex said) is the sense that while RW aims to deliver function, it completely ignores form in the process to the point where it actually desecrates the idea of it. And it's not just a simple matter of a program being pretty or not. This is software, not a hammer. The User Interface of an application (or websites, operating systems, etc) is king. The interface is what makes or breaks a product, because poor design and execution will ruin a programmer's good intentions without fail every single time. Form is usability.
Here it is no different. I see a character page like that - and after I finally locate the area of the screen that I'm supposed to be looking at - all I see a very large space that manages to tell me very little about a character (its one job). The page inherently needs additional views like link-webs just to try and sort through the chaos it created through bad design. But even these attempts at displaying the data fall victim to a clutter of useless distractions that disguise relevant information. It's the same problem that plagues the rest of the program, compounded with the it taking a stab in the dark trying to guess that everything is relevant. Being able to share portions of notes sounds neat in theory, but in execution it just contributes further to the mess and creates a result I wouldn't even want to share.
This is what I personally prefer to see when I search for a character like Ireena. There is no irrelevant information being thrown at me, no useless clutter of links and icons (both in the content window, and the UI around it). This is every single thing I need to know about the character, condensed in a simple way that can be easily printed out to a handout or pasted in to other services. I can look at a character and immediately tell what is relevant information.
And its just my way, one of many possibilities. Onenote lets form aid and increase function. It focuses on usability and being able to easily manage books and notes well before any gimmicky features, and that is why it excels as a tool for a game that can so heavily depend on being able to manage books and notes.
Love the At a Glance info you have added. Great idea. Might just add that to my NPC category.
Of interest to me is we are effectively doing the same thing. Your 'found in' and relationship information is what the panel on the right gives me.
To give you some insight about how I use the tool though I actually don't use the stat-block within Realm Works. My OCD requires that I fill that information in for completeness but I very rarely actually use the information from there.
What's important to me is the picture and the triangle icon (Hero Lab Snippet). When introducing an npc my process is as follows.
1. Right click on picture and click show to players allowing the players to see the visual on the screen facing them.
2. Scan the description / story text for the information pertinent to the encounter.
3. Click the integrate button on the Hero Lab snippet.
The result is Ireena opens up into my open session of Hero Labs and effectively joins the party. I do the same thing with monsters the party encounters and this then allows me to manage all aspects of the combat from Hero Lab.
Wow. I'm so glad I found this thread. I've been clunking along on OneNote for a few years. I honestly haven't mastered it yet, I'm sure there is tons of functionality that i'm not utilizing. I would love to use Realmworks but I have been burned in the past with companies going belly up and losing all my work , not that this will happen to Lone Wolf anytime soon-I'm just saying. I have hopes for DNDB and their blank canvas of a campaign manager but I still have my fears. One Note gives me control of my content.
My hope is that I can share stuff about One note with you guys here and improve our experience with it. I do all of my gaming on Roll20 nowadays so I want to learn tricks and tips to have my VTT experience memorable for my players.
One question I have is- does anyone know how to use a pin drop on One note for maps and areas like the way they have it in Realm Works? I never could figure that out.
Wow. I'm so glad I found this thread. I've been clunking along on OneNote for a few years. I honestly haven't mastered it yet, I'm sure there is tons of functionality that i'm not utilizing. I would love to use Realmworks but I have been burned in the past with companies going belly up and losing all my work , not that this will happen to Lone Wolf anytime soon-I'm just saying. I have hopes for DNDB and their blank canvas of a campaign manager but I still have my fears. One Note gives me control of my content.
My hope is that I can share stuff about One note with you guys here and improve our experience with it. I do all of my gaming on Roll20 nowadays so I want to learn tricks and tips to have my VTT experience memorable for my players.
One question I have is- does anyone know how to use a pin drop on One note for maps and areas like the way they have it in Realm Works? I never could figure that out.
What do you mean by "pin drops"?
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I'm not aware of any way to do that in OneNote while having both things showing at the same time, because OneNote only uses one "pane" or "window" to display content.
You could do something similar, however. For example let's use Phandelver from the D&D Starter Set. You could have a OneNote section (tabs across the top) named Phandelver. Create a page called "Map" and on that page insert the image of the map of Phandelver.
OneNote let's you make links to pages, and you can apply those links to images. See examples below. Map your map the background image (Right-click the image and choose "Set picture as background"). Then insert your PIN image (I did a google search for "Google maps pin png" to get one with a transparent background. Create a PAGE for the information about the location (in this case I made a page for Edermath Orchard, and then inserted a PIN image on the map at that location). Right-Click the PAGE and choose Copy Link to Page. Then click the pin and from the INSERT menu choose LINK. Paste the page link into the field for ADDRESS. Now when you hover over the pin you will see a box that says "CTRL + Click to go there". When you CTRL-Click you will be taken to the appropriate page.
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"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I have been using OneNote for years and NEVER knew about the set picture as background feature. Thank you so much!
I keep finding new stuff i can do that I had no idea about. (Same with powerpoint as well, there are so many features that if you don't know about them you don't know what it can do.)
FYI you can have the map showing in Onenote and use it to navigate a separate Onenote window as long as you use actual text hyperlinks rather than images. If you Dock the map window (Ctl-Alt-D) when you click on a link on the map it will open a new Onenote window showing the linked page. If you click new links on the map the main window shows the new page.
I usually use text with a light highlight but you could use a single number and a bright red background if you wanted to get closer to a map pin.
hello i am new to the DM side of the table and i was wondering if there was someone out there that was willing to post a download of a onenote or realmworks home brew. so i can see how a finished campaign looks and i can take it and use it as a example to get me started creating my own campaign. yes i know there are onenote templates like the SRDv5 mentioned earlier in this post but there is so much missing i can't seem to connect the dots from starting ideas to a finished campaign. so help please.
I actually use a mind mapper ( Simple mind... paid version on android tablet). The payed version lets you keep notes in different locations of the mind map. So far it works out well for me. But if all else then just use the always trusted pen/pencil and a note binder/pad. I am going to check out One Note right now though.
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NB that I have not used Realm Works yet, only viewed the site and some YouTube videos, but the biggest thing holding me back from switching over--beisdes not being able to afford it right now--is that the way things seem to be organized does not mesh well with my brain. I look at that screenshot, and I literally feel overwhelmed--particularly by the two columns on either side, but even the ribbon across the top and the tabs that are open as well. I'm not saying this would be the case for anyone who doesn't have a brain who works in the same stupid, atypical way mine does, or that I wouldn't get used to it over time. But a significant barrier to me signing up is what seems like would be sensory overload/inaccessibility due to the way my brain works. So I guess my question is, how customizable is the GUI, and are there any plans to make it more customizable? The best thing about OneNote for me--and part of why I switched over from Trello, which I still feel is an excellent tool--is that I can organize things however I want, in a way that's best for me. A one-stop-shop like Realm Works (or whatever DDB cooks up eventually) is incredibly appealing, but I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who looks at that screenshot and feels a sort of panic at the amount of information.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
It doesn't mesh at all. I'm pretty sure I've had this very conversation with him before since its the very same images and sales pitch that popup whenever a DM tries to talk about Onenote. To put it bluntly, Realm Works is a cluttered mess with no effort put into organizing and displaying its notes. Sure it links everything automatically, but that's part of the problem:
Beyond that, the text itself is very basic which does it no favors. Headers don't stand out at all, and there's no proper spacing to be found anywhere. It completely disregards the idea that there's an actual art behind displaying information in a way that can direct eyes exactly where they need to go. I look at it's toolbar and I don't see anything remotely related to formatting (by comparison, even the reply box on this forum looks significantly more advanced).
Onenote may not have been built specifically with DMs in mind, but it was built specifically for organizing an entire notebook of notes and for quickly displaying those words in proper, beautiful, usefully formatted ways. And for that reason Onenote was built for DMs, and becomes far valuable for anyone who cares about their notes. And as a bonus, formatted text can be pasted into other programs that care about it as well. Here's a tale of three Blue Water Inns:Two of these Inns are easy to navigate, pleasing to read, customizable to your liking, and free to use. The other is a sea of blue links in every paragraph, costs $50 and requires an additional subscription for its cloud services.
For example: When I am prepping I scan through each page that I know were are going to be running for the little green creature icon. That tell's me that the listed monster will be involved and I run off and brag the associated minis from my shelf.
Daplunk's YouTube Channel: Realm Works and Hero Lab Videos / Campaign Cartographer 3+ Videos
Realm Works Facebook User Group
I believe we have spoken previously MichaelIT. I do love a good discussion about campaign manager tools. I've tried as many as I can get my hands on and love to hear about what others are using and why. Granted I have found something that works wonders for me but appreciate that it will not work for everyone.
You are absolutely correct and granted the screenshot you are referring to was made years ago within my largest realm (nearing on 7,000 topics!). We used to work from a single realm to avoid having to input things like spells and monsters again which ultimately led to many double ups and redundant linking. Now that we can import and export content from one realm to another that’s no longer an issue though. I typically setup one realm per campaign now where previously I was running 3 individual groups through 3 individual adventure modules using the same realm with upwards of 10 different adventures entered into the single realm. It was a complete mess.
The tool however offers multiple ways to manage the linking. As you can see I’ve been rather lazy in the past and just hit save and let it go. I’m not the type that’s personally bothered by the excessive linking although I have had to change my approach since I started doing data entry for 3 party companies.
In regards to linking there are two settings.
This window is what appears should you have it set to No Auto Accept or is a duplicate topic is found. Here you can see it has found the Orc creature and the Orc language and is requesting user input on which if any topic to link to.
Another option that I find quite efficient is to turn on Auto Accept and then scan the links once complete for redundant links and just right click on a link and select Remove Link. I find this a lot quicker than having to read the topic and decide on what need to be linked to what.
This is again user choice. Formatting is not something I am personally concerned about. It’s just like MS Word though in you can format text however you like. There is the ability to set the styles of default text at a global level. This then applies to all text formatted in the default way.
Or you can do exactly as you do in Word and format it however you like. In the screenshot below you can see the format tab that display's when editing a topic. It has pretty much all of the functionality most users would use from a text editor.
You can therefore create your own headers should you wish to style it however you like. You don’t need to separate everything into individual snippets like I have done. Could just put it in a single text box and colour it manually like you have done but the snippets play into the more advanced functionality that allows you to share content with the players so I choose to use them as intended. Once LWD release the web view I will use this functionality a lot I suspect as my player's will be able to access what I share with them from any device.
From what I can tell Realm Works looks easier to navigate to be honest. Just open the map itself as the navigation panel while the players are in the building and click a pin. You retain visibility on the map and the text specific to the room there are searching load on the right. It doesn’t get easier than this. There's no need to scroll up and down through excessive lists of info. Just click a room and read that rooms description from the top to bottom.
If I was playing via VTT I would not likely be using Realm Works. I’d switch to something like Fantasy Grounds as the tool is better designer for the specific purpose of playing over the internet. I suspect you do the same thing, Roll20 for online play and OneNote for @table play?
The concern of cost is justified. For some $50 is a lot of money. I personally think it was an incredibly valuable purchase. In regards to the subscription though:
I can see that the visual layout and formatting is more important to you than it is for me. My focus is always going to be on using the tool which provides the better functionality to run and manage my games in the most efficient way possible. I could put the effort into making it prettier but I don’t need it to be pretty and my time is better spent putting more content into the tool.
The reply box on this forum is a prime example of a tool I would avoid. It look’s pretty but it’s absolutely painful to use. The quote system is way too difficult to work with to the extent that it’s easier to write this response in word than it is in the reply box and to avoid using quotes at all.
I’ll take increased and easy to use functionality any day over something that visually appealing.
On top of how the tool looks and feels it's about to become a lot useful and time efficient for DMs also. Once they release the content to the Content Market people won't need to input large chunks of data themselves. Just input the 5e SRD for example and instantly you have god knows how many monsters and spells loaded into the tool and ready to start using with no extra effort.
I'm excited to see what comes next. The community are already starting to share their creations and everyday I see DM's building upon their world with content they have created mixed with content others have shared.
Where Realm Works is really going to shine is with people documenting entire worlds. Check out this Greyhawk realm that Anna Meyer is working on. It's the sort of content I'd love to have just so I can read up and learn more about the world.
Again, I'm not saying OneNote is a bad tool. I do use it every single day. I just think Realm Works is better suited to the role of Campaign Management and offers a host of functionality that I think a lot of DM's would find bloody useful, which is ultimately why I get involved in these discussions. The more the Realm Works community grows the further the tool and its features will grow in the future. And... hopefully WOTC will get on board with a license if they see people using and enjoying it.
Daplunk's YouTube Channel: Realm Works and Hero Lab Videos / Campaign Cartographer 3+ Videos
Realm Works Facebook User Group
I wont lie, all that post did for me was make RW look even more cluttered and needlessly complex for campaign management. It was nice to see that it actually has a toolbar for formatting text, but is it tucked away or something? The format tab doesn't appear in most images here or when I google for images of the program. And when I do look around the web for screenshots of how other people use it, they all seem to ignore presentation as well in order to showcase content that is every bit as noisy and cluttered as the user interface itself is. Saying it is somehow efficient just reminds me of when someone has a messy room or desk, but they insist it is fine just because its their own mess and so they know where to find things. Ultimately I'm left with the impression that many of these features are an attempt to compensate for the program's core disregard for the fundamentals of design, just after-thought solutions to problems that only exist because the program created them in the first place. A VTT might need room pinning because by their design they focus more on the tabletop map than they do on displaying campaign notes. Meanwhile a clutter-free program built entirely around organizing and displaying notes doesn't need it because it can already let you see the map and the relevant notes on the same screen at the same time.
And if you're having troubles formatting text on the forum for whatever reason, you can always format a post in Onenote and copy and paste it in here :P
The formatting tab only appears when you are editing something that can be formatted. Works the same as OneNote does when you are messing with a table. Make's sense that people wouldn't be taking screenshots of pages they are currently editing. I know the dev's are aware of your concerns around the visual appeal as I've spoken with them about the subject but that's a conversation for another day due to an active nda.
I can see why someone who's not used the tool would have information overload. There's alot happening on that Greyhawk screenshot above for example but once you understand it it's very easy to use. I personally feel that Realm Works shines with more data. It would be incredibly challenging to structure and manage the sheet amount of data that goes into a whole campaign world for example. When I see that screenshot above I just want to keep reading and clicking the links to learn more about the topics it's referencing. Love that I can easily see the time-line and at a glance know when the world changing events have occured.
A big difference between Realm Works and OneNote goes into the more advanced features. You and I have discussed the formatting and layout because they are where the similarities between the two programs lie. Realm Works obviously provides more detailed functionality designed specifically for table top RPG's. The ability to share the information with the players for example.
Another method of sharing is using the Player Edition of the tool. Players can use the tool to login to your realm and see the information you have shared with them. That's what those little green circles are next to the snippets in the screenshot above and the reason for breaking all the text into snippets in the first place. If my players were to login they would only see the topics and specific snippets that I have allowed them to view. Now my player's don't use this, they prefer to play the old school way and receive the info from me directly and take their own notes. It's a cool idea though that I imagine some groups would find this useful.
Both of the way's to share stuff with the players allows you to use things like Player Maps with GM Map overlays. This ensure you as the DM always see the full version of the map but the players don't see any spoilers should you share a map with either of these methods. There's also fog of war. Some people use this as a VTT but personally I just use it as a visual tracker of what the player's have discovered. My player's quite like it when I throw a dungeon map up on the screen giving them an over-view of what they have seen so far.
Here the player's have found a magic item but have yet to discover the history or all the abilities of the item. I personally just use the snippets to keep track of what they have learnt since my player's choose not to use the Player Version but you could use it in a way that the player's can login and see only what they know.
Here's some more features it offers.
Flow charts can be used to map out your more complex adventure paths. The nodes can be connected to topics allowing you to navigate content using the flow chart should you choose. Obviously One Note integrates with Visio but it's not the same as having the functionality built directly into the tool.
Automatic relationship maps to keep track of who's married to who and how many children they have.
Web View to show a kind of mind map. This shows all the links and connections from one topic to the next allowing you to double click a node to change focus.
As I said above though. For me the appeal is functionality over pretty. I can see your mind looking at some of these screenshots and reeling in disgust lol. Personally though I know exactly where everything is and most things that I need are rarely more than a single click away from the topic i'm viewing at the time. I love that I can use all the features should I need them, all within the same tool. That's a huge part of the appeal for me.
Anyway, just replying at this stage for the sake of keeping the conversation going ;) must be time to go home.
Daplunk's YouTube Channel: Realm Works and Hero Lab Videos / Campaign Cartographer 3+ Videos
Realm Works Facebook User Group
Hi daplunk,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my concerns. I really appreciate it, and I feel that you really heard and responded to my concerns, and that means a lot because a lot of times these things just become big arguments.
The one thing I would like to say--and this probably gets down to everyone's brains working differently--but I really think that the form vs. function dichotomy you establish is artificial. While RW is more efficient for you than OneNote, it seems very much that this would not be the case for me, because in this case form and function and inextricably linked. If the information is presented in a manner that is confusing or difficult to read or cluttered, the program presenting that information ceases to be functional for me at all. So it's not just about "making things look pretty," but literally about using form to improve function. I appreciate that OneNote's almost endless customizability is too much for you--I can see how it'd be easy to get lost down that particular rabbit hole. And while I appreciate and am glad to hear that for you, you want the program that gets the job done for you and has the most functionality and how the information is presented doesn't matter as much to you, for someone like me, the presentation is about far more than aesthetics--it's about accessibility. And this is a point that I wish the developers of these tools would take note of. Something like OneNote has to be accessible, because of how broad the MS userbase is. Often times companies that cater to smaller, more niche markets such as TTRPGers don't realize that some of those same concerns about accessibility actually create barriers. So while they may not think it's important to incorporate certain elements, it actually means that a number of gamers are never going to use their product because it's not designed with them in mind, even a little bit.
And at the end of the day? That's fine. I don't have to use RW and you don't have to use OneNote, you know? I would absolutely love for there to be a program that offers the best of both worlds--because you're right, RW offers a heck of a lot of features that aren't going to be incorporated into a program that isn't designed specifically for DMs of TTPRGs. Maybe DDB's campaign manager will help to split the difference some, or maybe RW will make some tweaks at some point, or maybe something else entirely will come along that just blows all the other options out of the water. Until then, I'll stick with OneNote--even though it can't do all that other cool stuff that RW can do--because for me, and for a lot of people, form and function are one and the same.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I suppose what it comes down (and I may be repeating some of what jex said) is the sense that while RW aims to deliver function, it completely ignores form in the process to the point where it actually desecrates the idea of it. And it's not just a simple matter of a program being pretty or not. This is software, not a hammer. The User Interface of an application (or websites, operating systems, etc) is king. The interface is what makes or breaks a product, because poor design and execution will ruin a programmer's good intentions without fail every single time. Form is usability.
Here it is no different. I see a character page like that - and after I finally locate the area of the screen that I'm supposed to be looking at - all I see a very large space that manages to tell me very little about a character (its one job). The page inherently needs additional views like link-webs just to try and sort through the chaos it created through bad design. But even these attempts at displaying the data fall victim to a clutter of useless distractions that disguise relevant information. It's the same problem that plagues the rest of the program, compounded with the it taking a stab in the dark trying to guess that everything is relevant. Being able to share portions of notes sounds neat in theory, but in execution it just contributes further to the mess and creates a result I wouldn't even want to share.
This is what I personally prefer to see when I search for a character like Ireena. There is no irrelevant information being thrown at me, no useless clutter of links and icons (both in the content window, and the UI around it). This is every single thing I need to know about the character, condensed in a simple way that can be easily printed out to a handout or pasted in to other services. I can look at a character and immediately tell what is relevant information.
And its just my way, one of many possibilities. Onenote lets form aid and increase function. It focuses on usability and being able to easily manage books and notes well before any gimmicky features, and that is why it excels as a tool for a game that can so heavily depend on being able to manage books and notes.
I do love the way you have laid that out.
Love the At a Glance info you have added. Great idea. Might just add that to my NPC category.
Of interest to me is we are effectively doing the same thing. Your 'found in' and relationship information is what the panel on the right gives me.
To give you some insight about how I use the tool though I actually don't use the stat-block within Realm Works. My OCD requires that I fill that information in for completeness but I very rarely actually use the information from there.
What's important to me is the picture and the triangle icon (Hero Lab Snippet). When introducing an npc my process is as follows.
The result is Ireena opens up into my open session of Hero Labs and effectively joins the party. I do the same thing with monsters the party encounters and this then allows me to manage all aspects of the combat from Hero Lab.
Of interest, How do you manage combat?
Daplunk's YouTube Channel: Realm Works and Hero Lab Videos / Campaign Cartographer 3+ Videos
Realm Works Facebook User Group
I personally use improved-initiative or pen and paper but I've seen OneNote and Trello templates for tracking combat.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Wow. I'm so glad I found this thread. I've been clunking along on OneNote for a few years. I honestly haven't mastered it yet, I'm sure there is tons of functionality that i'm not utilizing. I would love to use Realmworks but I have been burned in the past with companies going belly up and losing all my work , not that this will happen to Lone Wolf anytime soon-I'm just saying. I have hopes for DNDB and their blank canvas of a campaign manager but I still have my fears. One Note gives me control of my content.
My hope is that I can share stuff about One note with you guys here and improve our experience with it. I do all of my gaming on Roll20 nowadays so I want to learn tricks and tips to have my VTT experience memorable for my players.
One question I have is- does anyone know how to use a pin drop on One note for maps and areas like the way they have it in Realm Works? I never could figure that out.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
He want's to replicate this. The map has pins on it that can be clicked to load the content that is associated with the location of the pin.
Daplunk's YouTube Channel: Realm Works and Hero Lab Videos / Campaign Cartographer 3+ Videos
Realm Works Facebook User Group
I'm not aware of any way to do that in OneNote while having both things showing at the same time, because OneNote only uses one "pane" or "window" to display content.
You could do something similar, however. For example let's use Phandelver from the D&D Starter Set. You could have a OneNote section (tabs across the top) named Phandelver. Create a page called "Map" and on that page insert the image of the map of Phandelver.
OneNote let's you make links to pages, and you can apply those links to images. See examples below. Map your map the background image (Right-click the image and choose "Set picture as background"). Then insert your PIN image (I did a google search for "Google maps pin png" to get one with a transparent background. Create a PAGE for the information about the location (in this case I made a page for Edermath Orchard, and then inserted a PIN image on the map at that location). Right-Click the PAGE and choose Copy Link to Page. Then click the pin and from the INSERT menu choose LINK. Paste the page link into the field for ADDRESS. Now when you hover over the pin you will see a box that says "CTRL + Click to go there". When you CTRL-Click you will be taken to the appropriate page.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I have been using OneNote for years and NEVER knew about the set picture as background feature. Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for that example.
FYI you can have the map showing in Onenote and use it to navigate a separate Onenote window as long as you use actual text hyperlinks rather than images. If you Dock the map window (Ctl-Alt-D) when you click on a link on the map it will open a new Onenote window showing the linked page. If you click new links on the map the main window shows the new page.
I usually use text with a light highlight but you could use a single number and a bright red background if you wanted to get closer to a map pin.
hello i am new to the DM side of the table and i was wondering if there was someone out there that was willing to post a download of a onenote or realmworks home brew. so i can see how a finished campaign looks and i can take it and use it as a example to get me started creating my own campaign. yes i know there are onenote templates like the SRDv5 mentioned earlier in this post but there is so much missing i can't seem to connect the dots from starting ideas to a finished campaign. so help please.
I actually use a mind mapper ( Simple mind... paid version on android tablet). The payed version lets you keep notes in different locations of the mind map. So far it works out well for me. But if all else then just use the always trusted pen/pencil and a note binder/pad. I am going to check out One Note right now though.