So I looked and it said devils will make pacts with mortals for warlock powers, but then I read that lesser devils clamber about trying to reach power as well by making deals with mortals. They are more desperate then the higher ups to meet a standard. So could a bone devil, horn devil etc. make a pact for a warlock? I am a DM trying to consider this as a choice . A weaker devil trying to rise through the ranks by maybe making a pact with a mortal.
Since one of the patrons listed for the celestial pact warlock is a unicorn which is only CR 5 I would let a PC pick pretty much any patron they wanted. Even an Imp might be able to teach ancient secrets that they learned over the millennia they’ve lived.
It is reasonable to assume that they wouldn't want to give a player more power than them. So I think that the CR of the devil should be high enough to easily defeat a lvl 10 warlock 1 on 1.
It is reasonable to assume that they wouldn't want to give a player more power than them. So I think that the CR of the devil should be high enough to easily defeat a lvl 10 warlock 1 on 1.
They wouldn't wish their "lackey" to be able to wield more power than them - but stand up toe-to-toe fighting is only one measure.
I can picture an Imp which has lived for millennia, which has a talent for brokering favors, blackmail, and knowledge. In a stand up fight with a lvl 10 warlock, they'd get their butt kicked. But it would never come to a stand up fight. They are owed favors by powerful beings, and control other warlocks willing to curry favor with them - so they have a thick insulating layer of powerful retainers between them and any actual danger.
With a little creativity, you can spin just about any demonic creature capable of making deals into a Patron.
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If the Imp is that powerful, why are they still just an Imp instead of moving up the chain? As devils grow in power they physically change from a lower form into the next more powerful incarnation. When they are demoted, the again change form to a lower state.
There's two ways to approach your game world when you want to inject something off the beaten path:
Allow the rules to tell you (or your Player) why something can't happen, or can't be done
Figure out how it might be done, evaluate the necessary pre-conditions, for something to exist, examine the necessary side effects of it existing in the game world, and figure out if those necessary conditions are acceptable to your world and the kind of story you're trying to portray (I, for example, could fit sentient alien clowns in my world - its a make believe world, you can do anything - but I would think that would trivialize the tone I want to set, and thus reject it), and fit it in (or not ) - accepting the required impact on your world and story (or not).
If - for the hell of it (pardon the pun) - your Player wanted an Imp Patron, it's not even that hard to do. Whether or not it breaks your narrative, or the tone you're trying to set, or whether you'd allow it, is up to you.
Looking at the MM for Devils, under promotion, we see ..
Promotion and Demotion. ... Archdevils and greater devils have the power to promote lemures to lesser devils. Archdevils can promote lesser devils to greater devils, and Asmodeus alone can promote a greater devil to archdevil status. ...
...Low-level promotions are typically based on need ... High-level promotions are almost always based on merit...
...Archdevils or greater devils can demote a lesser devil to a lemure, which loses all memory of its prior existence. An archdevil can demote a greater devil to lesser devil status, but the demoted devil retains its memories ...
...No devil can promote or demote another devil that has not sworn fealty to it, preventing rival archdevils from demoting each other’s most powerful servants. Since all devils swear fealty to Asmodeus, he can freely demote any other devil, transforming it into whatever infernal form he desires...
So, neither physical promotion or demotion appears to be automatic, and it's not based on actual power or ability, but on the merit perceived by one's sworn fealty Lord, and only by your fealty Lord (or Asmodeus).
So - do you want an Imp who isn't personally all that powerful (same stat block, probably way more cunning than normal, same combat abilities - but probably has extraordinary methods for protection, deception, and escape that they've acquired), but exists in the center of web, intrigue, favors, magic, and blackmail, and can dole out favors to your Warlock (or convince others to do so, which would make for more interesting encounters and flavor) - or your Player wants one and you look over the impact on the game and figure it's OK? Not that hard to do.
All you have to figure out is why no one has promoted them physically. Does their master keep them physically stunted so they are underestimated and thus are a more effective spy? Do they hold influence over their master, and have actually declined/refused promotion? Why? Or are they just so good at exercising power covertly that their fealty lord doesn't know? Is their ringer status a secret ( most likely, they are subverting the order of the 9 Hells! )? Are they actually an Imp, or do they take this form so they are underestimated ( and if so, how have they not been caught, what are they really, and why are they hiding out as an Imp), etc. What would happen if they were discovered? Really explore the concept, and what would be needed to make it work, and whether those requirements break your world, or tone.
There's a half-dozen possible ways you could spin this, and each creates a different kind of NPC character for your world and game. Personally, I like the idea of "the little guy" managing to carefully acquire favors and a power base, and doing it so subtly and covertly that no one knows that he's doing it, and no one part of his network has any idea that it's really just an Imp pulling the strings (but, I'm a sucker for underdogs subverting expectations). That even leads for the possibility of an interesting "discovery arc" where your Player's Character slowly discovers the nature of their Patron's secret - and gives them some leverage against their own Patron.
If you can make it work for an Imp, you can make it work for any other type of Devil.
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Since one of the patrons listed for the celestial pact warlock is a unicorn which is only CR 5 I would let a PC pick pretty much any patron they wanted. Even an Imp might be able to teach ancient secrets that they learned over the millennia they’ve lived.
While I agree that the rules allow low level creatures to be patrons, doing so just doesn't feel right to me.
Teaching ancient secrets is one thing, but granting special abilities (Eldritch invocations) should IMO, be the domain of overwhelmingly powerful beings.
Sure, why not, then at level 3 you could bind your patron to your will as a familiar.
In my example? "same stat block, probably way more cunning than normal, same combat abilities - but probably has extraordinary methods for protection, deception, and escape that they've acquired".
If doing this kind of Patron doesn't appeal to your campaign, or doesn't fit the tone you want to set - fine, don't do it. It's your game. If it fits and you want to allow it, then I've sketched out how it might be possible - even for an Imp.
You can allow your game to serve the rules and allow them to dictate the kind of game you feel you can run - or you can decide the game you want to run, and find ways to make the rules support what you want.
I know which one I prefer. Your game is your choice.
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Your right, that is why using the same creative logic you could bind your patron as your familiar at 3rd level. It would create an interesting paradox, who is truly the master and who is the servant?
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Not super familiar with devil lore, but there are quit of few that have been demoted from arch devil status either for rebelling or because they were supplanted by the promotion of another.. Such a devil would be exactly the combination of ambitious and desperate that would make them consider making warlocks.
Your right, that is why using the same creative logic you could bind your patron as your familiar at 3rd level. It would create an interesting paradox, who is truly the master and who is the servant?
Having familiars act as magical guides/patrons is an excellent way to RP them in general. Much more interesting then the simple bound servant/pet
Hell yeah man! I consider basically any devil a possible warlock patron. It makes for a good reveal too. This mysterious entity granting a mere mortal fiery magic from the very depths of baator. Only to 17 levels in discover that the one who was behind all the trouble was a simple CR 1 Imp. Maybe a little annoying at that point but still, you get the idea. Sometimes, you can give a devil 4 wizard levels. Idrane Nethis, a member of the Shadow Thieves had an imp (is an owl in her offical sheet but I needed it to be an imp), and she had gotten her hands on a spellbook. She then gave it to her Imp familiar, and bam! He was a 4th lvl wizard who stood a chance against the 5th lvl party of magically equiped adventurers! And is still alive, as Nethis can resummon him as he is a familiar. So good wild man! Sometimes you don't even need to figure out what/who the patron is at the start of the game. Maybe the players start guessing and you get good ideas! So have fun man!
let's not forget that warlocks to devils may be under contracts that forfeit their very lives and souls depending on the terms. an imp could have a warlock as a servant that has a contract that stipulates that they can never work against the imp or else sacrifice their lives and souls to the imp. contracts are worked out automatically by some sort of divine automation, so it doesn't need the imp to act on it; it just happens.
In this way, any being that depends on contracts to live, like all devils, can easily make a contract with a mortal and be a patron.
As for others, the good aligned beings may grant the ability for a chosen mortal to become a hero for good, not worrying about the hero surpassing them.
Demons being chaotic may not even notice or even know if the warlock becomes stronger than them if they themselves are lesser demons. They may make the pact just for fun or to spite something or someone else and then move on. Or they may even be killed in the Abyss.
As for other creatures/beings/entities - I think they would have ot have some extraplanar or divine nature in order to have access to secrets that would make it possible for them to create a warlock. What about fey creatures? Pixies? Hags? Or what about something like a Star Spawn Larva Mage?
again, as others have said, it's dnd, it's your game, do what you want. :)
If the Imp is that powerful, why are they still just an Imp instead of moving up the chain? As devils grow in power they physically change from a lower form into the next more powerful incarnation. When they are demoted, the again change form to a lower state.
The imp could have been higher up the chain, but passed off someone important and was demoted. But the little guy is not dismayed and already has plans for moving back up the hierarchy...however, to enact these plans it will need an agent in the material plane to carry out certain operations on its behalf, in exchange for a slice of Hellish power, of course...
Just remember, a patron/Warlock relationship doesn't HAVE to be one of master/subordinate. It can be one that is, generally, mutually beneficial.
An imp could grant a warlock powers on the premise that the imp is weak and needs some kind of protection. Becomes a familiar through contract to the Warlock and is in turn protected from other creatures. This may be until the imp grows more powerful and can climb the ranks. As far as the Warlock gaining more powers as he improves when an imp is so weak, well the imp may contract with the warlock that it gets the souls of every creature they kill. This in turn allows the imp to grow stronger.
I'm speaking in very broad strokes, of course. These may or may not be consistent with hard-line devil lore.
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So I looked and it said devils will make pacts with mortals for warlock powers, but then I read that lesser devils clamber about trying to reach power as well by making deals with mortals. They are more desperate then the higher ups to meet a standard. So could a bone devil, horn devil etc. make a pact for a warlock? I am a DM trying to consider this as a choice . A weaker devil trying to rise through the ranks by maybe making a pact with a mortal.
Since one of the patrons listed for the celestial pact warlock is a unicorn which is only CR 5 I would let a PC pick pretty much any patron they wanted. Even an Imp might be able to teach ancient secrets that they learned over the millennia they’ve lived.
Professional computer geek
It is reasonable to assume that they wouldn't want to give a player more power than them. So I think that the CR of the devil should be high enough to easily defeat a lvl 10 warlock 1 on 1.
They wouldn't wish their "lackey" to be able to wield more power than them - but stand up toe-to-toe fighting is only one measure.
I can picture an Imp which has lived for millennia, which has a talent for brokering favors, blackmail, and knowledge. In a stand up fight with a lvl 10 warlock, they'd get their butt kicked. But it would never come to a stand up fight. They are owed favors by powerful beings, and control other warlocks willing to curry favor with them - so they have a thick insulating layer of powerful retainers between them and any actual danger.
With a little creativity, you can spin just about any demonic creature capable of making deals into a Patron.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
If the Imp is that powerful, why are they still just an Imp instead of moving up the chain? As devils grow in power they physically change from a lower form into the next more powerful incarnation. When they are demoted, the again change form to a lower state.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
There's two ways to approach your game world when you want to inject something off the beaten path:
If - for the hell of it (pardon the pun) - your Player wanted an Imp Patron, it's not even that hard to do. Whether or not it breaks your narrative, or the tone you're trying to set, or whether you'd allow it, is up to you.
Looking at the MM for Devils, under promotion, we see ..
Promotion and Demotion. ... Archdevils and greater devils have the power to promote lemures to lesser devils. Archdevils can promote lesser devils to greater devils, and Asmodeus alone can promote a greater devil to archdevil status. ...
...Low-level promotions are typically based on need ... High-level promotions are almost always based on merit...
...Archdevils or greater devils can demote a lesser devil to a lemure, which loses all memory of its prior existence. An archdevil can demote a greater devil to lesser devil status, but the demoted devil retains its memories ...
...No devil can promote or demote another devil that has not sworn fealty to it, preventing rival archdevils from demoting each other’s most powerful servants. Since all devils swear fealty to Asmodeus, he can freely demote any other devil, transforming it into whatever infernal form he desires...
So, neither physical promotion or demotion appears to be automatic, and it's not based on actual power or ability, but on the merit perceived by one's sworn fealty Lord, and only by your fealty Lord (or Asmodeus).
So - do you want an Imp who isn't personally all that powerful (same stat block, probably way more cunning than normal, same combat abilities - but probably has extraordinary methods for protection, deception, and escape that they've acquired), but exists in the center of web, intrigue, favors, magic, and blackmail, and can dole out favors to your Warlock (or convince others to do so, which would make for more interesting encounters and flavor) - or your Player wants one and you look over the impact on the game and figure it's OK? Not that hard to do.
All you have to figure out is why no one has promoted them physically. Does their master keep them physically stunted so they are underestimated and thus are a more effective spy? Do they hold influence over their master, and have actually declined/refused promotion? Why? Or are they just so good at exercising power covertly that their fealty lord doesn't know? Is their ringer status a secret ( most likely, they are subverting the order of the 9 Hells! )? Are they actually an Imp, or do they take this form so they are underestimated ( and if so, how have they not been caught, what are they really, and why are they hiding out as an Imp), etc. What would happen if they were discovered? Really explore the concept, and what would be needed to make it work, and whether those requirements break your world, or tone.
There's a half-dozen possible ways you could spin this, and each creates a different kind of NPC character for your world and game. Personally, I like the idea of "the little guy" managing to carefully acquire favors and a power base, and doing it so subtly and covertly that no one knows that he's doing it, and no one part of his network has any idea that it's really just an Imp pulling the strings (but, I'm a sucker for underdogs subverting expectations). That even leads for the possibility of an interesting "discovery arc" where your Player's Character slowly discovers the nature of their Patron's secret - and gives them some leverage against their own Patron.
If you can make it work for an Imp, you can make it work for any other type of Devil.
It's D&D - you can do anything you want.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
While I agree that the rules allow low level creatures to be patrons, doing so just doesn't feel right to me.
Teaching ancient secrets is one thing, but granting special abilities (Eldritch invocations) should IMO, be the domain of overwhelmingly powerful beings.
Sure, why not, then at level 3 you could bind your patron to your will as a familiar.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
In my example? "same stat block, probably way more cunning than normal, same combat abilities - but probably has extraordinary methods for protection, deception, and escape that they've acquired".
If doing this kind of Patron doesn't appeal to your campaign, or doesn't fit the tone you want to set - fine, don't do it. It's your game. If it fits and you want to allow it, then I've sketched out how it might be possible - even for an Imp.
You can allow your game to serve the rules and allow them to dictate the kind of game you feel you can run - or you can decide the game you want to run, and find ways to make the rules support what you want.
I know which one I prefer. Your game is your choice.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Your right, that is why using the same creative logic you could bind your patron as your familiar at 3rd level. It would create an interesting paradox, who is truly the master and who is the servant?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Very Darth Vader of you ;) " when I left, I was but the learner ... now I am the Master ... " ;)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Not super familiar with devil lore, but there are quit of few that have been demoted from arch devil status either for rebelling or because they were supplanted by the promotion of another.. Such a devil would be exactly the combination of ambitious and desperate that would make them consider making warlocks.
Having familiars act as magical guides/patrons is an excellent way to RP them in general. Much more interesting then the simple bound servant/pet
Hell yeah man! I consider basically any devil a possible warlock patron. It makes for a good reveal too. This mysterious entity granting a mere mortal fiery magic from the very depths of baator. Only to 17 levels in discover that the one who was behind all the trouble was a simple CR 1 Imp. Maybe a little annoying at that point but still, you get the idea.
Sometimes, you can give a devil 4 wizard levels. Idrane Nethis, a member of the Shadow Thieves had an imp (is an owl in her offical sheet but I needed it to be an imp), and she had gotten her hands on a spellbook. She then gave it to her Imp familiar, and bam! He was a 4th lvl wizard who stood a chance against the 5th lvl party of magically equiped adventurers!
And is still alive, as Nethis can resummon him as he is a familiar. So good wild man! Sometimes you don't even need to figure out what/who the patron is at the start of the game. Maybe the players start guessing and you get good ideas! So have fun man!
@Vedexent - Post #6
That was such a good post, it has given me a lot of ideas for my current character.
Thank you very much!
let's not forget that warlocks to devils may be under contracts that forfeit their very lives and souls depending on the terms. an imp could have a warlock as a servant that has a contract that stipulates that they can never work against the imp or else sacrifice their lives and souls to the imp. contracts are worked out automatically by some sort of divine automation, so it doesn't need the imp to act on it; it just happens.
In this way, any being that depends on contracts to live, like all devils, can easily make a contract with a mortal and be a patron.
As for others, the good aligned beings may grant the ability for a chosen mortal to become a hero for good, not worrying about the hero surpassing them.
Demons being chaotic may not even notice or even know if the warlock becomes stronger than them if they themselves are lesser demons. They may make the pact just for fun or to spite something or someone else and then move on. Or they may even be killed in the Abyss.
As for other creatures/beings/entities - I think they would have ot have some extraplanar or divine nature in order to have access to secrets that would make it possible for them to create a warlock. What about fey creatures? Pixies? Hags? Or what about something like a Star Spawn Larva Mage?
again, as others have said, it's dnd, it's your game, do what you want. :)
The imp could have been higher up the chain, but passed off someone important and was demoted. But the little guy is not dismayed and already has plans for moving back up the hierarchy...however, to enact these plans it will need an agent in the material plane to carry out certain operations on its behalf, in exchange for a slice of Hellish power, of course...
Just remember, a patron/Warlock relationship doesn't HAVE to be one of master/subordinate. It can be one that is, generally, mutually beneficial.
An imp could grant a warlock powers on the premise that the imp is weak and needs some kind of protection. Becomes a familiar through contract to the Warlock and is in turn protected from other creatures. This may be until the imp grows more powerful and can climb the ranks. As far as the Warlock gaining more powers as he improves when an imp is so weak, well the imp may contract with the warlock that it gets the souls of every creature they kill. This in turn allows the imp to grow stronger.
I'm speaking in very broad strokes, of course. These may or may not be consistent with hard-line devil lore.