At lvl 1 it is hardest to balance, because most monsters can knock a PC out with a single lucky blow. But mostly if they just think a little bit and not always run head first into every problem, the players can overcome a lot more than what CR recommendations seem to suggest.
For example Ochre jellies have a movement speed of 10, so the players can easily kill them with ranged attacks without taking damage.
Above lvl 1 for a fight to be hard without it being after a series of smaller fights where they have used resources you often need to go to deadly and then abit over.
Another level has "At Level 1 there are 2 orcs per character plus 1 ogre in the courtyard and 1 orc atop the northeast tower" So that makes 7 Orcs and an ogre for my little group of 3 Level 1 character, and an XP count of 1150 for the encounter :/
Here the players could try one of the following:
A) sneak in and fight them seperately, as in they engage one group and as the sound of battle ensues the other groups joins in slowly (at your discretion, you are the DM after all)
7 orcs and 1 ogre, that is 2 orcs in each quadrant except for the one with the ogre and one in the Tower.
That means the fight could start out against 2 orcs. 3 players and lets say one sidekick should be able to kill these in 1-2 rounds, if they get the drop on them. Then have 2 more orcs arrive and attack maybe joined part way through (or when one dies) by the last group. Then when all orcs are dead let them hear the ogre slowly approaching (ogres are dumb and have low passive perception so maybe they haven't figured what happened yet), telegraph it clearly so they have time to prepare or run away.
The Ogre is the main danger in this encounter and should only be fought when alone.
Let the last orc spend his time crawling out of the tower.
B) Run (this is always an option)
This encounter is not part of any quest either, so running away and not coming back isn't a problem.
You can't. Run. Away. The rulebook explicitly states that unless it's dark, the characters can't sneak or hide on the field. And the orcs move 90 ft. a turn and the ogre moves 80. Even if it's dark, both have dark vision of 60 feet. And if at least one orc survives the surprise round, it can sound the alarm. Orcs moving at the alarm move with a speed of 60. The ogres maybe move 40 because they don't care. But as soon as they see a foe, especially juicy elves, they gonna run at them too. And the rules, again, state that as soon as the sentry sounds the alarm and consequently any other orc, ther rest of the monsters enter into combat. And this is what happened with me, and without reliable area damage, the orcs and ogres overwhelmed the party. The rogue did succesfully lure an ogre away and the sorcerer did an excellent performance check to confuse the orcs and the ogre as well (the ogre attacked out of confusion but a shield spell stopped the attack and it bacame even more confused). They used covers and positioning and the sorcerer soaked up like 4 crits from a single orc, but for 3 lvl 3 adventurers, the encounter was 5700 worth of XP against the deadly encounter treshold of 1200. And since running away is practically impossible, right now the elven ranger is dead (or I save him by figuring that the orcs want to question him and then sacrafice him to Gruumsh), the Tabaxy sorcerer is on the roof, 0 hp, but stable (orcs couldn't manage to climb up after him, but was hit by a projectile) and the rogue is trying to hide in one of the towers, not seeing anything in the dark, while the remaining orcs and ogre are looking for him. It's practically impossible to flee the temple after you have entered the encounterm and alerted the orcs. I mean sure, if it's for experienced adventurers, okey maybe. But when you have first time DMs with first time players with their first characters playing around lvl 3... Not sure if this was balanced properly.
Just a quick comment ... looking at the suggested balance adjustments for the Shrine of Savras, it is pretty clear that the table makes no sense. The DM will need to make adjustments for their party.
Some issues ... the opponents listed for a level 4 or 5 party are the same. However, a level 5 party will have twice the ability to deal damage for most martial characters while the other level 5 characters will have spells like fireball and spirit guardians. Whoever drew up that table wasn't really thinking about the abilities of the different parties. If anything the table should have a 5-6 entry since level 6 doesn't typically add that much.
In addition, the incremental increases are off. Level 6 only adds one ogre compared to level 4-5 while 2-3 -> 4-5 adds an orc/character + 1 ogre.
Finally, the level 1 balance suggestion is way off. Level 1 characters have insufficient hit points such that a hit from one orc can down a character. If the orcs outnumber the characters the odds of them losing at level 1 are very high and that doesn't factor in the ogre.
A single ogre is CR 2 - moves 40' - +6 to hit, 59 hit points, 2d8+4 damage for an average of 13 each hit. 13 will take down most 1st level characters and that is without a crit. Fighting a single ogre has a good chance to TPK a level 1 party without the orcs (if they get into melee range with it). Add 2 orcs/character and the party doesn't have a chance.
----
My suggestion for balancing Shrine of Savras would be something like
Level 1: Orcs only - number of characters in the party + 1 or 2 ... still could go badly since level 1 is very dice dependent but at least they have a decent chance. (The very first practice encounter I ran in 5e was an orc against two level 1 characters (ranger and fighter) and it was almost a TPK as the orc rolled well, took out the fighter in a couple of rounds and had the ranger at half hit points before going down.
Level 2: Orcs only - 2 x party members +1 or 2 - depends on your party composition.
Level 3-4: Orcs: 2 to 3 x party members , 1 to 2 Ogres - exact choice depends on party composition and capability. Having a couple of shatter spells or other AoE (e.g. burning hands) can really help with clearing out orcs. However, if the party is relying on single attacks from melee classes without high AC or damage mitigation (e.g. rage) .. then being outnumbered will really be a bigger challenge.
Level 5: Orcs 3 to 4 x party members + 3-4 Ogres (by level 5-6 the party power level usually scales up) .. if they have fireball then the extra orc cannon fodder isn't a big deal since a lot of them will likely go down pretty quickly.
----
LIke it or not, the challenge of any particular encounter depends a lot on the capabilties of the characters AND the players. Some players see the tactical issues, if they are outnumbered they may try engaging from range using hide and sniper tactics. Other parties will have wizards or others with AoE capabilities which work better when engaging larger number of lower hit point targets.
The result is that some encounter "tailoring" is needed to obtain an experience that fits the party. TPKs aren't fun for the players or the DMs and it is usually better to adjust the encounter in advance rather than fudge die rolls. One of the best techniques is reinforcements (use sparingly so it isn't obvious). A combat round is only 6 seconds, it takes a few rounds for creatures in other parts of a building to respond.Don't start the combat with every opponent visible to the characters. If the party is having a challenging time then delay or eliminate reinforcements - or change up their difficulty. The party doesn't know what is there unless you told them. If the 6 orcs is proving challenging then have the reinforcement that they can hear coming be an orc rather than an ogre. If the part scouted and though they saw an ogre in the courtyard but it didn't join the fight (because the party would have died) then have the party find the imitation ogre statue (made of hides) that the orcs built just to make their camp look more intimidating. On the other hand, if the party is doing well, have the ogre rumble out on the second or third round, building suspense by describing the sound it makes as it approaches.
Anyway, dynamic encounter balance may not be that easy but it helps keep things interesting without becoming a TPK. Finally, as the characters get to a bit higher level, you find that this becomes a bit less of an issue since characters won't usually go down in one hit.
-----
P.S. I finished running DoIP a few weeks ago for a fairly experienced group and it went pretty well.
-The first encounters were fine since the ochre jelly can be kited as soon as the players realize how slow it is. Yes, engaging the jelly in melee is something of a death sentence at level 1 but this helps players develop a sense of tactics.
- Mine was a party of 6 that ended up fighting the manticore. Most retreated into the tower and used ranged attacks from cover while the first level paladin with 18 AC stood outside and dodged - it was a bit of a risky move but the disadvantage to hit significantly reduced the chances of the creature hitting. The Manticore wasn't that bright and already had some damage due to the back story. However, this was an example of players using tactics that newer players might not realize.
- the gnomes and the mimic were mostly a role playing encounter though the mimic got in a hit or two. The party was big enough that numbers took the mimic down pretty quickly.
After the first tier of quests, I had to usually scale UP the encounters from DoIP to make them a challenge for a party of 6.
- The riskiest second tier quest is the Mountain Toe Mine. If the characters have magical/silver weapons or spell damage then it is easy. If they are a melee party and don't have any magic weapons yet then they will die if it becomes a combat encounter. On the other hand, the wererats know that mundane weapons can't hurt them so they may be lenient and not attack as the characters realize how powerless they are. If the party has no magical weapons then I would tend to use the suggested diplomatic solution though if the party does go clear out the Shrine then I would have the wererats move out of the mine unless the party has acquired the means to fight in the meantime.
- by the time my group hit the ranch, I added a couple of orc shaman and an orc chieftain to the bunch of orcs in the ranch house.
- at the manse I ended up adding an entire orc warband upstairs, allied with the half-orc followers of Talos. The most dangerous part of this one ended up being the three Talos boar/anchorites outside who attack the party when they are leaving. (My party was level 5/6 when doing this one). The three lightning bolts from the Anchorites took down two and almost 3 members of the party but the others were able to get them back up and defeat the boars ... they don't have much after their 1/day lightning bolt is expended.
- finally, I swapped the young white dragon (CR6) with a young blue dragon (CR9) for the final battle. The party still managed to take it down in three combat rounds but at least there was a bit more risk this way and its lightning breath did knock one character to zero hit points.
One article I found useful was a suggestion posted with a revised narrative for the DoIP storyline I found here:
It ties the whole Anchorite storyline, the orc story line and the dragon story line into one cohesive plot line which I find really helped bring the module together. Each of the "quests" doesn't change much but it has more significance and meaning which I found really worthwhile. Unfortunately, I didn't find this until I was 2/3 of the way through the module but I was still able to incorporate some of the pieces. However, some of the adjustments may make some of the encounters a bit more difficult (at the higher levels where that is less of an issue and where some of the encounters were a bit weak as written in my run through).
I'm about to run this adventure and I also think the fights are very hard. Considering this is going to be for a group of first time players, they will most likely all die on any level 1-2 fight following the book.
I'm using the encounter builder to lower the difficulty of the encounters, most of the times having no more enemies than PCs. The goal for me it's that they have a good time and learn to play, rather than challenge them with tough fights.
I am currently running DOIP for a party of two players (wizard and druid, currently level 3) and for them I haven't really run into any major trouble aside from fudging some of the enemy's dice so that I wouldn't kill them at first level. But I think it depends on how the dice fall and what the players do. Mine have tended to do a lot of crazy out of the box things that really changed the encounters. After level 1 I tried not to help them too much, and they have made their way through the Dwarven Excavation, Gnomegarde, Umbrage Hill, and (currently) Butterskull Ranch just fine.
My advice is: if needed, be generous with health potions or maybe npc's healing them & avoid crit hitting them.
Just a quick comment ... looking at the suggested balance adjustments for the Shrine of Savras, it is pretty clear that the table makes no sense. The DM will need to make adjustments for their party.
Some issues ... the opponents listed for a level 4 or 5 party are the same. However, a level 5 party will have twice the ability to deal damage for most martial characters while the other level 5 characters will have spells like fireball and spirit guardians. Whoever drew up that table wasn't really thinking about the abilities of the different parties. If anything the table should have a 5-6 entry since level 6 doesn't typically add that much.
In addition, the incremental increases are off. Level 6 only adds one ogre compared to level 4-5 while 2-3 -> 4-5 adds an orc/character + 1 ogre.
Finally, the level 1 balance suggestion is way off. Level 1 characters have insufficient hit points such that a hit from one orc can down a character. If the orcs outnumber the characters the odds of them losing at level 1 are very high and that doesn't factor in the ogre.
A single ogre is CR 2 - moves 40' - +6 to hit, 59 hit points, 2d8+4 damage for an average of 13 each hit. 13 will take down most 1st level characters and that is without a crit. Fighting a single ogre has a good chance to TPK a level 1 party without the orcs (if they get into melee range with it). Add 2 orcs/character and the party doesn't have a chance.
----
My suggestion for balancing Shrine of Savras would be something like
Level 1: Orcs only - number of characters in the party + 1 or 2 ... still could go badly since level 1 is very dice dependent but at least they have a decent chance. (The very first practice encounter I ran in 5e was an orc against two level 1 characters (ranger and fighter) and it was almost a TPK as the orc rolled well, took out the fighter in a couple of rounds and had the ranger at half hit points before going down.
Level 2: Orcs only - 2 x party members +1 or 2 - depends on your party composition.
Level 3-4: Orcs: 2 to 3 x party members , 1 to 2 Ogres - exact choice depends on party composition and capability. Having a couple of shatter spells or other AoE (e.g. burning hands) can really help with clearing out orcs. However, if the party is relying on single attacks from melee classes without high AC or damage mitigation (e.g. rage) .. then being outnumbered will really be a bigger challenge.
Level 5: Orcs 3 to 4 x party members + 3-4 Ogres (by level 5-6 the party power level usually scales up) .. if they have fireball then the extra orc cannon fodder isn't a big deal since a lot of them will likely go down pretty quickly.
----
LIke it or not, the challenge of any particular encounter depends a lot on the capabilties of the characters AND the players. Some players see the tactical issues, if they are outnumbered they may try engaging from range using hide and sniper tactics. Other parties will have wizards or others with AoE capabilities which work better when engaging larger number of lower hit point targets.
The result is that some encounter "tailoring" is needed to obtain an experience that fits the party. TPKs aren't fun for the players or the DMs and it is usually better to adjust the encounter in advance rather than fudge die rolls. One of the best techniques is reinforcements (use sparingly so it isn't obvious). A combat round is only 6 seconds, it takes a few rounds for creatures in other parts of a building to respond.Don't start the combat with every opponent visible to the characters. If the party is having a challenging time then delay or eliminate reinforcements - or change up their difficulty. The party doesn't know what is there unless you told them. If the 6 orcs is proving challenging then have the reinforcement that they can hear coming be an orc rather than an ogre. If the part scouted and though they saw an ogre in the courtyard but it didn't join the fight (because the party would have died) then have the party find the imitation ogre statue (made of hides) that the orcs built just to make their camp look more intimidating. On the other hand, if the party is doing well, have the ogre rumble out on the second or third round, building suspense by describing the sound it makes as it approaches.
Anyway, dynamic encounter balance may not be that easy but it helps keep things interesting without becoming a TPK. Finally, as the characters get to a bit higher level, you find that this becomes a bit less of an issue since characters won't usually go down in one hit.
-----
P.S. I finished running DoIP a few weeks ago for a fairly experienced group and it went pretty well.
-The first encounters were fine since the ochre jelly can be kited as soon as the players realize how slow it is. Yes, engaging the jelly in melee is something of a death sentence at level 1 but this helps players develop a sense of tactics.
- Mine was a party of 6 that ended up fighting the manticore. Most retreated into the tower and used ranged attacks from cover while the first level paladin with 18 AC stood outside and dodged - it was a bit of a risky move but the disadvantage to hit significantly reduced the chances of the creature hitting. The Manticore wasn't that bright and already had some damage due to the back story. However, this was an example of players using tactics that newer players might not realize.
- the gnomes and the mimic were mostly a role playing encounter though the mimic got in a hit or two. The party was big enough that numbers took the mimic down pretty quickly.
After the first tier of quests, I had to usually scale UP the encounters from DoIP to make them a challenge for a party of 6.
- The riskiest second tier quest is the Mountain Toe Mine. If the characters have magical/silver weapons or spell damage then it is easy. If they are a melee party and don't have any magic weapons yet then they will die if it becomes a combat encounter. On the other hand, the wererats know that mundane weapons can't hurt them so they may be lenient and not attack as the characters realize how powerless they are. If the party has no magical weapons then I would tend to use the suggested diplomatic solution though if the party does go clear out the Shrine then I would have the wererats move out of the mine unless the party has acquired the means to fight in the meantime.
- by the time my group hit the ranch, I added a couple of orc shaman and an orc chieftain to the bunch of orcs in the ranch house.
- at the manse I ended up adding an entire orc warband upstairs, allied with the half-orc followers of Talos. The most dangerous part of this one ended up being the three Talos boar/anchorites outside who attack the party when they are leaving. (My party was level 5/6 when doing this one). The three lightning bolts from the Anchorites took down two and almost 3 members of the party but the others were able to get them back up and defeat the boars ... they don't have much after their 1/day lightning bolt is expended.
- finally, I swapped the young white dragon (CR6) with a young blue dragon (CR9) for the final battle. The party still managed to take it down in three combat rounds but at least there was a bit more risk this way and its lightning breath did knock one character to zero hit points.
One article I found useful was a suggestion posted with a revised narrative for the DoIP storyline I found here:
It ties the whole Anchorite storyline, the orc story line and the dragon story line into one cohesive plot line which I find really helped bring the module together. Each of the "quests" doesn't change much but it has more significance and meaning which I found really worthwhile. Unfortunately, I didn't find this until I was 2/3 of the way through the module but I was still able to incorporate some of the pieces. However, some of the adjustments may make some of the encounters a bit more difficult (at the higher levels where that is less of an issue and where some of the encounters were a bit weak as written in my run through).
I am definitely going to look at that because that's kind of how we decided to play it as well and I need a little help on some of the later questlines. :D
For the Shrine encounter, you have to realise that the ogres are at a different corner of the grounds, and they don't care about the Orcs.
If the party aren't stealthy and approach during daylight, maybe the orcs will come out to attack, but maybe not - they aren't mindless marauders, they are using the shrine as their new camp.
Done quietly, each small group of orcs can be dealt with quickly enough before groups from the other corners arrive - first the orcs have to realise a fight is happening, then they have to get their kit together, then they have to move around the side of the shrine - this would all take several rounds.
For the Shrine encounter, you have to realise that the ogres are at a different corner of the grounds, and they don't care about the Orcs.
If the party aren't stealthy and approach during daylight, maybe the orcs will come out to attack, but maybe not - they aren't mindless marauders, they are using the shrine as their new camp.
Done quietly, each small group of orcs can be dealt with quickly enough before groups from the other corners arrive - first the orcs have to realise a fight is happening, then they have to get their kit together, then they have to move around the side of the shrine - this would all take several rounds.
If I was a DM faced with a low level/weak party going into the Shrine then what you describe is probably how I would encourage it to happen. I would make sure that they notice the sentry before being noticed which will probably encourage them to approach at night from the side without the sentry.
I'd probably have most of the camp sleeping and lax. I'd allow the party to come up with some stealthy ways to take out orcs, I might reduce the number of orcs and I might decide that the players are quiet enough when fighting that the rest of the camp just thinks it is the usual orcs having a bit of a fight.
It is not how the encounter should run but I would prefer it to a TPK so as DM, I'd probably run it like that, the players would enjoy it and wouldn't die.
However, that isn't down to any decision by the players - it is a decision by the DM on how they will run it.
"Done quietly, each small group of orcs can be dealt with quickly enough before groups from the other corners arrive - first the orcs have to realise a fight is happening, then they have to get their kit together, then they have to move around the side of the shrine - this would all take several rounds."
This doesn't work at all unless the DM decides they want it to.
Any ogres are together in one quadrant. The orcs could be in any of the other three. Each quadrant can be seen/heard from each adjacent one and they are only 60-100' apart (the whole courtyard is about 130' across). Even the ogres by themselves will constitute a deadly encounter for most 4 character parties if scaled according to the table and that is without any orcs at all.
Orcs and ogres probably sleep in their hide armor. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of these creatures would be awake or on guard duty at any time - watching out for the dragon if for no other reason.
The camp site is probably lit - orcs like everyone else see better in the light and with darkvision, dim light makes it look like daylight to them ... so fires make a lot of sense.
"Recently, ogres wandered by the shrine, saw the ores, and decided to join them."
If the ogres decided to join the orcs in their camp then they are likely at least on friendly terms and if some yummy tasting humanoids showed up then the ogres are likely to join in the fight so that they can have a bit of fun and not miss out on their share of the feast. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the ogres would ignore characters killing the orcs because they "don't care about them".
"During the day, the characters can't approach the shrine without being seen by this sentry, as there are no places to hide in the level field surrounding the shrine."
As written, if the characters approach during the day, then hey are spotted and the entire location is alerted by the sentry in the northeast tower.
"If the ore spots the characters, it cries out, rousing the shrine's other occupants. Once roused, all those occupants attack."
At night, the sentry in the tower with 60' darkvision can see the courtyards but not the walls.
"The courtyard has four quadrants. The ogres claim the southeast quadrant, while the ores claim the remaining quadrants."
A single ogre is a deadly encounter for 4 1st level characters.
3 orcs are a deadly encounter for 4 1st level characters.
The module calls for 8 orcs and an ogre for 4 1st level characters. Even if the 8 orcs are divided into one group of 2 and two groups of 3 in three quadrants and an ogre in the 4th that is three deadly and one hard encounter for 4 1st level characters.
Anyway, the point I was making is that the encounter scaling as written is deadly or beyond for any party. Yes a DM can and will adjust everything to make it possible for the party to survive but if the DM runs it straight up as written without a bit of guidance to the players and possibly some fudging of die rolls (I don't do that since I roll in the open) then this encounter is likely to be a TPK no mater what tactics the party chooses to use.
Also, keep in mind that if the orcs take the dash action, they move 60' - if they can see an hostile opponent they can also bonus action dash and cover 90' in one combat round. The ogres can also dash covering 80' in one combat round. This means that any alerted orcs and orges will be delayed from combat by one or at most two combat rounds - one from adjacent courtyards and two from the opposite one depending on where the fight develops.
So, no, unless the DM decides to bend reality, have the monsters just move their 30', add in a round or two of extra delay just to give the party a chance, and also staggers the arrival of the rest of the orcs then the party stands a very good chance of not surviving this combat which is why I suggested the DM look at the encounter, the characters and their players very carefully when running this encounter.
I was wondering about the Hall of Greed in the Dwarven Excavation - requiring 40 hours work to clear the passageway, two players & the two dwarves helping that's still a full day's work after all that battling - and the reward is 4d10 damage? That just seems sadistic to put new players through while they're 1st-3rd level!
not sure if you have seen this but is a really good walk through of icespire peak and how to run it.
I will also say look ahead at the barrow quest, there is a trap there which, if you have not trained your players to search for traps and spread out in confined areas, can easily be a very cheap TPK.
I was wondering about the Hall of Greed in the Dwarven Excavation - requiring 40 hours work to clear the passageway, two players & the two dwarves helping that's still a full day's work after all that battling - and the reward is 4d10 damage? That just seems sadistic to put new players through while they're 1st-3rd level!
I changed this, I made the gem worth 150, but kept the trap and had the statue explode. I made it an Indiana Jones type trap so allowed my players to swap a rock out for the gem.
Result, a 10 perception to guestimate the size and shape and weight of the gem, a 2 for investigation to find a rock that matched (they found a rock) then a 1 to determine if it matched :). Then a dex roll to swap the rock for the gem, one of the funniest moments in DnD as the players totally owned the dice rolls and acted accordingly as if they knew they where safe. Then a nat 20 on the dex check to make the switch. Bomb went off but the player was able to roll away and took half damage.
not sure if you have seen this but is a really good walk through of icespire peak and how to run it.
I will also say look ahead at the barrow quest, there is a trap there which, if you have not trained your players to search for traps and spread out in confined areas, can easily be a
I used a lot of the advice in this as well, and found it really helpful. For the gem I made it very obviously Evil looking (the book even says the statue is staring greedily), but of course they could not resist and went for it anyway. Trap went off, hit 2 of 3 party members, one went unconscious but no deaths. Gem was not destroyed however. I decided the dwarves who were mining the area were very greedy and really want that gem, and the players sold it to them. They later found out the gem is somehow a source of evil and misfortune, decided to try to get it back from the dwarves in order to destroy it. The dwarves were not having it, did not want to sell it back at any price, and were about to fight the party to defend it (were basically under its charm). They defused the situation and finally after a few good persuasion/deception/intimidation rolls (combination of these) the dwarves agreed to sell it back. The players wanted to destroy it, but the characters suddenly wanted to keep it, now that they had it. Don't usually like to take away player agency but it was similar to a charm spell and made for a tense moment. Finally they were able to pass a successful Wisdom check to destroy the gem. And out popped an evil creature which had been trapped inside. I used a deathlock which was appropriate challenge for their level. It offered a bargain but my LG paladin was having none of that, so they fought and "killed" it. I will probably bring it back for revenge later when they least expect it.
Sorry if that got a little long but I was just trying to give an example of taking the framework provided by the adventure and adding/subtracting to make it however you want.
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You can't. Run. Away. The rulebook explicitly states that unless it's dark, the characters can't sneak or hide on the field. And the orcs move 90 ft. a turn and the ogre moves 80.
Even if it's dark, both have dark vision of 60 feet. And if at least one orc survives the surprise round, it can sound the alarm. Orcs moving at the alarm move with a speed of 60. The ogres maybe move 40 because they don't care. But as soon as they see a foe, especially juicy elves, they gonna run at them too. And the rules, again, state that as soon as the sentry sounds the alarm and consequently any other orc, ther rest of the monsters enter into combat. And this is what happened with me, and without reliable area damage, the orcs and ogres overwhelmed the party. The rogue did succesfully lure an ogre away and the sorcerer did an excellent performance check to confuse the orcs and the ogre as well (the ogre attacked out of confusion but a shield spell stopped the attack and it bacame even more confused). They used covers and positioning and the sorcerer soaked up like 4 crits from a single orc, but for 3 lvl 3 adventurers, the encounter was 5700 worth of XP against the deadly encounter treshold of 1200. And since running away is practically impossible, right now the elven ranger is dead (or I save him by figuring that the orcs want to question him and then sacrafice him to Gruumsh), the Tabaxy sorcerer is on the roof, 0 hp, but stable (orcs couldn't manage to climb up after him, but was hit by a projectile) and the rogue is trying to hide in one of the towers, not seeing anything in the dark, while the remaining orcs and ogre are looking for him.
It's practically impossible to flee the temple after you have entered the encounterm and alerted the orcs.
I mean sure, if it's for experienced adventurers, okey maybe. But when you have first time DMs with first time players with their first characters playing around lvl 3...
Not sure if this was balanced properly.
Just a quick comment ... looking at the suggested balance adjustments for the Shrine of Savras, it is pretty clear that the table makes no sense. The DM will need to make adjustments for their party.
Some issues ... the opponents listed for a level 4 or 5 party are the same. However, a level 5 party will have twice the ability to deal damage for most martial characters while the other level 5 characters will have spells like fireball and spirit guardians. Whoever drew up that table wasn't really thinking about the abilities of the different parties. If anything the table should have a 5-6 entry since level 6 doesn't typically add that much.
In addition, the incremental increases are off. Level 6 only adds one ogre compared to level 4-5 while 2-3 -> 4-5 adds an orc/character + 1 ogre.
Finally, the level 1 balance suggestion is way off. Level 1 characters have insufficient hit points such that a hit from one orc can down a character. If the orcs outnumber the characters the odds of them losing at level 1 are very high and that doesn't factor in the ogre.
A single ogre is CR 2 - moves 40' - +6 to hit, 59 hit points, 2d8+4 damage for an average of 13 each hit. 13 will take down most 1st level characters and that is without a crit. Fighting a single ogre has a good chance to TPK a level 1 party without the orcs (if they get into melee range with it). Add 2 orcs/character and the party doesn't have a chance.
----
My suggestion for balancing Shrine of Savras would be something like
Level 1: Orcs only - number of characters in the party + 1 or 2 ... still could go badly since level 1 is very dice dependent but at least they have a decent chance. (The very first practice encounter I ran in 5e was an orc against two level 1 characters (ranger and fighter) and it was almost a TPK as the orc rolled well, took out the fighter in a couple of rounds and had the ranger at half hit points before going down.
Level 2: Orcs only - 2 x party members +1 or 2 - depends on your party composition.
Level 3-4: Orcs: 2 to 3 x party members , 1 to 2 Ogres - exact choice depends on party composition and capability. Having a couple of shatter spells or other AoE (e.g. burning hands) can really help with clearing out orcs. However, if the party is relying on single attacks from melee classes without high AC or damage mitigation (e.g. rage) .. then being outnumbered will really be a bigger challenge.
Level 5: Orcs 3 to 4 x party members + 3-4 Ogres (by level 5-6 the party power level usually scales up) .. if they have fireball then the extra orc cannon fodder isn't a big deal since a lot of them will likely go down pretty quickly.
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LIke it or not, the challenge of any particular encounter depends a lot on the capabilties of the characters AND the players. Some players see the tactical issues, if they are outnumbered they may try engaging from range using hide and sniper tactics. Other parties will have wizards or others with AoE capabilities which work better when engaging larger number of lower hit point targets.
The result is that some encounter "tailoring" is needed to obtain an experience that fits the party. TPKs aren't fun for the players or the DMs and it is usually better to adjust the encounter in advance rather than fudge die rolls. One of the best techniques is reinforcements (use sparingly so it isn't obvious). A combat round is only 6 seconds, it takes a few rounds for creatures in other parts of a building to respond.Don't start the combat with every opponent visible to the characters. If the party is having a challenging time then delay or eliminate reinforcements - or change up their difficulty. The party doesn't know what is there unless you told them. If the 6 orcs is proving challenging then have the reinforcement that they can hear coming be an orc rather than an ogre. If the part scouted and though they saw an ogre in the courtyard but it didn't join the fight (because the party would have died) then have the party find the imitation ogre statue (made of hides) that the orcs built just to make their camp look more intimidating. On the other hand, if the party is doing well, have the ogre rumble out on the second or third round, building suspense by describing the sound it makes as it approaches.
Anyway, dynamic encounter balance may not be that easy but it helps keep things interesting without becoming a TPK. Finally, as the characters get to a bit higher level, you find that this becomes a bit less of an issue since characters won't usually go down in one hit.
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P.S. I finished running DoIP a few weeks ago for a fairly experienced group and it went pretty well.
-The first encounters were fine since the ochre jelly can be kited as soon as the players realize how slow it is. Yes, engaging the jelly in melee is something of a death sentence at level 1 but this helps players develop a sense of tactics.
- Mine was a party of 6 that ended up fighting the manticore. Most retreated into the tower and used ranged attacks from cover while the first level paladin with 18 AC stood outside and dodged - it was a bit of a risky move but the disadvantage to hit significantly reduced the chances of the creature hitting. The Manticore wasn't that bright and already had some damage due to the back story. However, this was an example of players using tactics that newer players might not realize.
- the gnomes and the mimic were mostly a role playing encounter though the mimic got in a hit or two. The party was big enough that numbers took the mimic down pretty quickly.
After the first tier of quests, I had to usually scale UP the encounters from DoIP to make them a challenge for a party of 6.
- The riskiest second tier quest is the Mountain Toe Mine. If the characters have magical/silver weapons or spell damage then it is easy. If they are a melee party and don't have any magic weapons yet then they will die if it becomes a combat encounter. On the other hand, the wererats know that mundane weapons can't hurt them so they may be lenient and not attack as the characters realize how powerless they are. If the party has no magical weapons then I would tend to use the suggested diplomatic solution though if the party does go clear out the Shrine then I would have the wererats move out of the mine unless the party has acquired the means to fight in the meantime.
- by the time my group hit the ranch, I added a couple of orc shaman and an orc chieftain to the bunch of orcs in the ranch house.
- at the manse I ended up adding an entire orc warband upstairs, allied with the half-orc followers of Talos. The most dangerous part of this one ended up being the three Talos boar/anchorites outside who attack the party when they are leaving. (My party was level 5/6 when doing this one). The three lightning bolts from the Anchorites took down two and almost 3 members of the party but the others were able to get them back up and defeat the boars ... they don't have much after their 1/day lightning bolt is expended.
- finally, I swapped the young white dragon (CR6) with a young blue dragon (CR9) for the final battle. The party still managed to take it down in three combat rounds but at least there was a bit more risk this way and its lightning breath did knock one character to zero hit points.
One article I found useful was a suggestion posted with a revised narrative for the DoIP storyline I found here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/comments/e77dmi/dragon_of_icespire_peak_revised/
It ties the whole Anchorite storyline, the orc story line and the dragon story line into one cohesive plot line which I find really helped bring the module together. Each of the "quests" doesn't change much but it has more significance and meaning which I found really worthwhile. Unfortunately, I didn't find this until I was 2/3 of the way through the module but I was still able to incorporate some of the pieces. However, some of the adjustments may make some of the encounters a bit more difficult (at the higher levels where that is less of an issue and where some of the encounters were a bit weak as written in my run through).
I'm about to run this adventure and I also think the fights are very hard. Considering this is going to be for a group of first time players, they will most likely all die on any level 1-2 fight following the book.
I'm using the encounter builder to lower the difficulty of the encounters, most of the times having no more enemies than PCs. The goal for me it's that they have a good time and learn to play, rather than challenge them with tough fights.
Hey!
I am currently running DOIP for a party of two players (wizard and druid, currently level 3) and for them I haven't really run into any major trouble aside from fudging some of the enemy's dice so that I wouldn't kill them at first level. But I think it depends on how the dice fall and what the players do. Mine have tended to do a lot of crazy out of the box things that really changed the encounters. After level 1 I tried not to help them too much, and they have made their way through the Dwarven Excavation, Gnomegarde, Umbrage Hill, and (currently) Butterskull Ranch just fine.
My advice is: if needed, be generous with health potions or maybe npc's healing them & avoid crit hitting them.
Honestly, I was expecting to have our people barter with a healing potion if it all went bad but they ended up just walking through it.
I am definitely going to look at that because that's kind of how we decided to play it as well and I need a little help on some of the later questlines. :D
For the Shrine encounter, you have to realise that the ogres are at a different corner of the grounds, and they don't care about the Orcs.
If the party aren't stealthy and approach during daylight, maybe the orcs will come out to attack, but maybe not - they aren't mindless marauders, they are using the shrine as their new camp.
Done quietly, each small group of orcs can be dealt with quickly enough before groups from the other corners arrive - first the orcs have to realise a fight is happening, then they have to get their kit together, then they have to move around the side of the shrine - this would all take several rounds.
The movement on these jellies is only 10 ft so you could just dance around the jellies and they would not be able to attack the characters.
If I was a DM faced with a low level/weak party going into the Shrine then what you describe is probably how I would encourage it to happen. I would make sure that they notice the sentry before being noticed which will probably encourage them to approach at night from the side without the sentry.
I'd probably have most of the camp sleeping and lax. I'd allow the party to come up with some stealthy ways to take out orcs, I might reduce the number of orcs and I might decide that the players are quiet enough when fighting that the rest of the camp just thinks it is the usual orcs having a bit of a fight.
It is not how the encounter should run but I would prefer it to a TPK so as DM, I'd probably run it like that, the players would enjoy it and wouldn't die.
However, that isn't down to any decision by the players - it is a decision by the DM on how they will run it.
"Done quietly, each small group of orcs can be dealt with quickly enough before groups from the other corners arrive - first the orcs have to realise a fight is happening, then they have to get their kit together, then they have to move around the side of the shrine - this would all take several rounds."
This doesn't work at all unless the DM decides they want it to.
Any ogres are together in one quadrant. The orcs could be in any of the other three. Each quadrant can be seen/heard from each adjacent one and they are only 60-100' apart (the whole courtyard is about 130' across). Even the ogres by themselves will constitute a deadly encounter for most 4 character parties if scaled according to the table and that is without any orcs at all.
Orcs and ogres probably sleep in their hide armor. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of these creatures would be awake or on guard duty at any time - watching out for the dragon if for no other reason.
The camp site is probably lit - orcs like everyone else see better in the light and with darkvision, dim light makes it look like daylight to them ... so fires make a lot of sense.
"Recently, ogres wandered by the shrine, saw the ores, and decided to join them."
If the ogres decided to join the orcs in their camp then they are likely at least on friendly terms and if some yummy tasting humanoids showed up then the ogres are likely to join in the fight so that they can have a bit of fun and not miss out on their share of the feast. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the ogres would ignore characters killing the orcs because they "don't care about them".
"During the day, the characters can't approach the shrine without being seen by this sentry, as there are no places to hide in the level field surrounding the shrine."
As written, if the characters approach during the day, then hey are spotted and the entire location is alerted by the sentry in the northeast tower.
"If the ore spots the characters, it cries out, rousing the shrine's other occupants. Once roused, all those occupants attack."
At night, the sentry in the tower with 60' darkvision can see the courtyards but not the walls.
"The courtyard has four quadrants. The ogres claim the southeast quadrant, while the ores claim the remaining quadrants."
A single ogre is a deadly encounter for 4 1st level characters.
3 orcs are a deadly encounter for 4 1st level characters.
The module calls for 8 orcs and an ogre for 4 1st level characters. Even if the 8 orcs are divided into one group of 2 and two groups of 3 in three quadrants and an ogre in the 4th that is three deadly and one hard encounter for 4 1st level characters.
Anyway, the point I was making is that the encounter scaling as written is deadly or beyond for any party. Yes a DM can and will adjust everything to make it possible for the party to survive but if the DM runs it straight up as written without a bit of guidance to the players and possibly some fudging of die rolls (I don't do that since I roll in the open) then this encounter is likely to be a TPK no mater what tactics the party chooses to use.
Also, keep in mind that if the orcs take the dash action, they move 60' - if they can see an hostile opponent they can also bonus action dash and cover 90' in one combat round. The ogres can also dash covering 80' in one combat round. This means that any alerted orcs and orges will be delayed from combat by one or at most two combat rounds - one from adjacent courtyards and two from the opposite one depending on where the fight develops.
So, no, unless the DM decides to bend reality, have the monsters just move their 30', add in a round or two of extra delay just to give the party a chance, and also staggers the arrival of the rest of the orcs then the party stands a very good chance of not surviving this combat which is why I suggested the DM look at the encounter, the characters and their players very carefully when running this encounter.
I was wondering about the Hall of Greed in the Dwarven Excavation - requiring 40 hours work to clear the passageway, two players & the two dwarves helping that's still a full day's work after all that battling - and the reward is 4d10 damage? That just seems sadistic to put new players through while they're 1st-3rd level!
https://slyflourish.com/running_icespire_peak.html
not sure if you have seen this but is a really good walk through of icespire peak and how to run it.
I will also say look ahead at the barrow quest, there is a trap there which, if you have not trained your players to search for traps and spread out in confined areas, can easily be a very cheap TPK.
I changed this, I made the gem worth 150, but kept the trap and had the statue explode. I made it an Indiana Jones type trap so allowed my players to swap a rock out for the gem.
Result, a 10 perception to guestimate the size and shape and weight of the gem, a 2 for investigation to find a rock that matched (they found a rock) then a 1 to determine if it matched :). Then a dex roll to swap the rock for the gem, one of the funniest moments in DnD as the players totally owned the dice rolls and acted accordingly as if they knew they where safe. Then a nat 20 on the dex check to make the switch. Bomb went off but the player was able to roll away and took half damage.
I swapped out some of the jellies for skeletons and had them not all split.
I used a lot of the advice in this as well, and found it really helpful. For the gem I made it very obviously Evil looking (the book even says the statue is staring greedily), but of course they could not resist and went for it anyway. Trap went off, hit 2 of 3 party members, one went unconscious but no deaths. Gem was not destroyed however. I decided the dwarves who were mining the area were very greedy and really want that gem, and the players sold it to them. They later found out the gem is somehow a source of evil and misfortune, decided to try to get it back from the dwarves in order to destroy it. The dwarves were not having it, did not want to sell it back at any price, and were about to fight the party to defend it (were basically under its charm). They defused the situation and finally after a few good persuasion/deception/intimidation rolls (combination of these) the dwarves agreed to sell it back. The players wanted to destroy it, but the characters suddenly wanted to keep it, now that they had it. Don't usually like to take away player agency but it was similar to a charm spell and made for a tense moment. Finally they were able to pass a successful Wisdom check to destroy the gem. And out popped an evil creature which had been trapped inside. I used a deathlock which was appropriate challenge for their level. It offered a bargain but my LG paladin was having none of that, so they fought and "killed" it. I will probably bring it back for revenge later when they least expect it.
Sorry if that got a little long but I was just trying to give an example of taking the framework provided by the adventure and adding/subtracting to make it however you want.