I Believe there are signs of a clique buildup in the dev team that prevents the connections needed for consistent alignments with the community. I mean that some devs are patting each other's backs and liking each others things because they involve each others characters as NPCs and maybe not providing needed critique on things such as balance and coolness for devs vs fun for players.
I believe BG:DitA obvious slip-ups, UA material power creeping as well as interviews all support this notion.
Absolutely not. I started to get this feelings when I saw some celebrities praising the devs and the posture and comments that they (the devs) started to make after that. As if they were celebrities themselves.
Even in the sage advice they started to be less prestative and attentive and started to be more sarcastic and "acid", like people were wasting their time with stupid questions (though I have to admit that some questions ARE pretty absurd or have been answered many times before).
And it does seem that the new material is made to please these said celebrities and keep those praisings coming.
The last UA (the one with the "revised" classes) is just atrocious.
Glad I found this thread, just told my 4 players that we will actually be starting at level 2! Even then they might still need some help from my side as I'm reading all these horror stories lol.
My group just got to level 4 last night and it's starting to get easier, but there are still some moments where they get scared. An enemy was able to throw three daggers, hit all three, dealing 22 points of damage total. Almost totally downed the cleric in one round.
Hey I did almost the same. Started them at lvl 2 and just spaced the leveling out a bit. Also, one of my players is really good at tactics. Almost every encounter is planned out and they like to set traps. It's hard, sure, but nothing that removing a monster here and adjusting an encounter there can't fix.
My bigger issue with the start of this adventure is the story pacing is a little sloppy and relies on the DM telling the players; guys, ****it, just go with it. From BG to Candlekeep, the players have NO, and I mean NO REASON to go other than, the adventure wants you to go there. I could see some of my players asking themselves, "Why are we doing this? It's not our city sucked into hell."
The start of this module requires a lot of glue work from the DM. But to be fair, that's the case with most modules. It's just part of being a DM. Not nearly as bad as HotDQ though.
Ok, GM needs to have a bit sense. What you see in monsters are most they can do. For group im leading into this death trap i have send Flennis check after gas exploded (luckily catching noone inside as monk have pulled investigating rogue with lattern back, as she spoted that gas is starting to be catching inside latern itself (she have pulled back and kicked lattern in, drawing rogue down, perfect action and in the door into room, so absolutely fair). So dust and everything in the air, Flennis sends her pets in front as party gets up. Rats attack, causing ruckus, when Flennis gets in. If she would throw Fireball at that moment it would be TPK. She says:"Oh my darlings, seems we have visitors." and sends one Ray of Sickness toward barbarian (and missed), vanquishing back into darkness of side tunnel. Monk bolted after her and did quite a number on her, yet in another round she turns back, made successful touch attack and chill touched monk, efectively sending her down, leaving black palm of frozen skin on chest and stoped heart of unconcius monk behind, scatering into darkness again. Folowing that, monk was risen back to legs and thanks to larger movement got to Flennis again, finishing her by critical through flurry of blows. Pretty deadly encounter, causing fear and tension.
I mean, yes. You can go brutal. Yes, you can instadown your players. Or you can turn toward PC lonely in the tunel and say with creaky spooky voice: "Let's cool that hot head of yours, shall we?" Quess what has bigger effect toward atmosphere? :D Sure, Flennis is quite brutal enemy as is many in this camapign, but its all up to you how far you will go.
Yet honestly, i added some healing potions into torture chamber (as it make sense - there for critical moments when you want to continue with torture, yet victim is down), because some of PC had burned down hitdices at that moment and i needed them to get back into fight).
I've been given permission by my DM to DM my first campaign after we finish our current one, and I'll be doing Descent. Here's the big changes I've made to the Baldur's Gate section:
I've not put much thought into the tavern brawl, but depending on the size of the party, I might have someone jump in right away (perhaps a Zhentarim opportunist who wants a cut of the loot). Alternatively, if the party is upstairs when the fight starts, have the pirate captain be downstairs and send a few guys upstairs, with the rest going up when only one of the first group is remaining.
I might bump the party to level 3 for the Dungeon of the Dead Three once they get into the dungeon proper.
I will also allow the party to bring one NPC with them into the dungeon. They can either request backup from Captain Zodge (he'll assign a veteran who uses a spear and shield), or from one of the five factions (the Harpers will provide a Swashbuckler, the Gauntlet will provide a Knight, the Zhentarim and Lord's Alliance will provide a Spy, with the Zhentarim spy having a few doses of serpent venom). The party only gets one NPC, and if they don't think to ask for backup, well, I'll tell them after someone dies in the dungeon that they could have.
If I'm feeling worried about the Master of Souls, I might switch the spell list up a bit. Perhaps for offense, Flennis will cast Dragonbreath on her swarm of rats, and she will have Clairvoyance prepared instead of Fireball (for spying on the Vanthampurs, since the cult is beginning to distrust them). She'll have already cast it once, and her materials for it can be found by searching the room.
Vaaz, the Death's Head, most likely will kill someone in the party, and I'm ok with that.
Mortlock will advise the party to bring a treat for Slobberchops if they decide to go after his family. If they don't take his advice, that's all on them.
I'm worried that I might be acting too gentle there. Thoughts?
In regards to UA power creep, I think that's kinda inevitable unless developers are very careful to make sure it DOESN'T happen. Consider the Barbarian subclasses in the original PHB. The Totem Warrior is clearly better than the Berserker, and that holds true even if you don't use a Bear totem. Players will eventually discover that certain subclasses are better and gravitate towards those. In order to release content that players like, the developers will avoid making stuff that is weaker than the popular stuff, which causes power creep. That's why they are experimenting with Sorcerer subclasses that have the equivalent of domain spell lists (which many players feel the sorcerer should have had since day 1).
Had my first go at BG: DitA with my party last night. For the record, I'm a new DM and this a party of 5 that is new to D&D. Our only previous experience was a one-shot ish night a few weeks ago when we played around with combat scenarios and tried to get a better feel for mechanics and whatnot. That being said, we had a pretty successful first night although we didn't get too far.
To set the party up for success, I did have them start at level two. That made a difference, but the biggest reason they were successful is because of how they chose to handle Elfsong Tavern. I had a couple of my players in a game of Baldur's Bones w/ Tarina when the pirates came into the tavern. I role-played Tarina as being frightened and asking for help, expecting the party to defend her, but one of my PCs threw out the idea of helping her escape if she pays the party a certain amount (20 gp and the rest of the party was pissed at him! Loved the idea and hated that he low-balled...lol!)....I set a three minute timer which gave the party enough to to break into one of the rooms, use a rope, and get out of the tavern just as Dead Eye was coming up the stairs. The scene for us basically ended with the party running away down the alley as Dead Eye shouts at them from the window. I think it will be a fun little surprise for them later on.
I did have the party level up to 3 at that point and they made short work of the nightblades and necromite in the bathouse. Ended the evening with them discovering the secret door and stairs that lead into the dungeon under the bathhouse. In hindsight, I probably should have beefed up the nightblades and necromite but oh well. The party had fun and is excited to get into the dungeon in our next session.
I just ran the Elfsong Tavern encounter last night with a party of 6 1st level characters. So, the fight was a 7-on-6 with Tarina joining forces with the party. Dead-Eye was probably the toughest of the enemies due to his HP and multiple attacks. However, the party's paladin was able to take out several pirates single-handed. The only casualties were Tarina and the party's wizard. Both fell due to well-struck blows (i.e. crits) from Dead-Eye and his cohort. Now, my party has a majority of experienced players so they knew how to use their abilities effectively. I could see where a party of new players would struggle with dealing with the encounter.
I made some slight tweaks on the Dungeon of the Dead Three, plus player actions led to things being a bit more kinetic.
TL;DR: I think the adventure is only a TPK box if the characters treat encounters as toe to toe slug fest, and the DM insists all opposition will be absolutely unyielding (also environments presented can be used tactically to advantage and livelihood preservation by all combatants). For example Elfsong Tavern, none of the pirates besides the captain were going to risk their lives to avenge a years ago swindle that some of them weren't even crewed on the Uncivil Serpent before. After the captain got killed with the assistance of the Sauhaugain whose bath got interrupted by the melee (and later tried to barter for the party's Tortle), the surviving pirates left, possibly to fight another time.
FULL STORY: Party is a bit bloated for kid social cohort reason. We have adults playing a ranger and a paladin, then the party's druid, cleric, two rogues and a sorcerer are all played by ten year olds. The adults are intentionally letting the kids have the run of the show and everything they came up with below was entirely unprompted by any adult in the room).
I opted for Flennis to be aloof and more focused on creating her zombie more than anything else. When the characters are fighting the Iron Counsel and his lieutenant, I tweaked/fudged the voice of command so that he's basically invoking a mutual aid clause among the cults. Only cultist remotely within earshot and still alive was Flennis, who irritated sends off her skeleton rat swarm. As the party defeated the iron counsel and the lieutenant, the rats swarmed in, and the rogues trying to aid the prisoner triggered the flying gauntlets. After the fight the party held their ground while two characters escort the prisoner out of the dungeon. The time it took for that escort gives Flennis time to finish her zombie ritual. They tried the door to the gas filled chamber, got a whiff of that, and opted to try a different rout, so took the corridor and stairs from where the rats came. The party gets a to a door and the rogues did a bit of peaking as they watched Flennis escort her zombie out of the morgue, away from them and off to her zombie storage area.
In her absence the party investigated the morgue and find Flennis's spellbook. Sorcererer in party has no use for the book, but determines what and whose it is, and, thinking Flennis is the "big bad" in the dungeon, steals it as potential leverage (they were already spooked by the visuals of the lesser Neccromites' Claws from the Grave, and the booby trapped book lock, which while the sorcerer avoided damage did provide a jump scare). They follow Flennis and zombie's foot prints to the skeleton altar. Sorcerer susses the skeleton trick and now the party has a skeleton squad. Their tracking takes them to the gas filled room, where they recognize the gas again, but also hear some sloshing footsteps through the water, Flennis being kind of oblivious and not trying to be stealthy in her dungeon laboratory. Party decides to ignite the gas room via torch toss as Flennis steps in. Big explosion, when the dust settles, Flennis casts darkness to retreat back the way she came. The characters (remember mostly new/inexperienced players) actually do "attack the darkness" and explore the phenomenon for a bit before deciding to wait it out. This gives Flennis plenty of time to rally the cult forces on her side-ish of the secret door (the zombies +1, the Fists of Bane who were sleeping in their armor (seriously...?) in their down room, and the Fist who was watching over the secret door. Flennis isn't a tactician, but a death and undeath worshipper, so she sets up four fists in the room following the gas room with bows as initial fodder, and keep her precious zombies in reserve with her in the hallway with the three sarcophagus rooms, and the last Fist as a bodyguard. Missile combat between party and Fists goes quicker than I thought, Zombies come in as next wave. Cleric manages to turn all but two, party makes short work of the hold outs. Sorcerer sends skeletons to scout and engage whatever may be up the stairs in the hallway, they get hit by scorching ray, and an arrow. Sorcerer withdraws the skeletons (precious toys I guess) and Rogues and high CON Sorcerer basically bait another blast of scorching ray, with a cleric readied to heal them. A Paladin and Druid combat shaped into wolf rush the corridor. Paladin picks the Fist, Druid/wolf gets a critical (yay pack tactic roll) on Flennis and takes her prone. After the prior explosion, two rounds of wolf wrestling v chill touch, Flennis is down to 10 hp, so misty steps to the other side of the hallway, trying to escape via the chamber the party had come through. She wasn't expecting (nor was I) the skeleton squad to tackle her and take her down into the water (2 nat 20s on grapples plus a third successful grapple), which is where we broke till next station..
The Sorcerer wants Flennis alive, again they're thinking she's "the big bad" and the characters will fight opponents who insist on fighting to the death, but the party is pretty resentful about being press-ganged into being a cult kill team for the Flaming Fist (for a session 0 we had a waterborne humanitarian mission to give the new players some sense of the mechanics and performing ability checks, that endeavor put them very much on the side of Elturel refugees, Flaming Fist not so much). Assuming someone pulls Flennis out of the water before the skeletons overdo the "grab her" order and drown her, I think Flennis will likely use her 3rd level slot to misty step (it's the only verbal only spell she's got) again and get the heck out of the dungeon (the party will either find her body at the feet of the Dragon Cultists, or she'll lead some sort of reprisal attack before the characters leave for Candlekeep later in the adventure, depending how badly the party wants to see her again/disappointed they were by not capturing her).
About the zombies now. They've retreated to the chamber where they were "mapped" on the dungeon. Their cowering in their room was noted by the party's ranger (preferred enemy undead) when he, Palladin and druid wolf rushed the corridor. Ranger closed and barred the door to the room. Generally, after zombies recover from being "turned" (which is in three more rounds), do you think they should be more likely to just go back into torpor lurking in the room, or would they be animated to get back into the fight, bash down the door etc? There's some time constraints game wise (we're switching to two hour sessions every other week through the summer), so I may just rule it "problem contained, you can move on" but I think I'm going to play it that if the party is still in the hallway or their point of entry into the hallway by the time the zombies are unturned, its door bashing time, otherwise they just go back to zombie dreamland.
So yeah, so far BG:DitA is child's play. Tough child's play, but there were some good rolls, some impressive ingenuity and tactics and my dice just weren't matching them.
The fight against the four dragons in Arkham's Tower is obscenely difficult - totally impossible for most parties, actually. The book says it's designed for a 9th level party (where each member will have between 60 and 100 hit points), but the dragons can deal 180 AOE damage ON THE FIRST ROUND. What was WOTC thinking??? Was this just meant to be an unbeatable death trap? It certainly seems that way. I'm pretty sure that only a party of Bearbarians and Arcane Trickster Rogues, or a party filled with spellcasters that can use Hypnotic Pattern, could beat this encounter at the suggested level.
This encounter MIGHT be beatable for most 17th level parties if they manage to roll high on Initiative. I'm getting very tired of impossibly difficult encounters that can't be avoided if you want to advance the story. There should always be SOME way to beat encounters if your party is at the suggested level or higher.
Not there yet, but I think Arkan's Tower, and the subsequent location of Arkhan before Tiamat's prison/cave, aren't written for a fight. Unlike other areas of Avernus where combat's almost mandated or likely, there's no map of the tower or Tiamat's monument. The text provides/suggests Krull and Arkham's respective negotiation strategies and the respective small armies garrisoned at each locale should discourage not invite an attempt to force the matter by combat. Meta-game wise, Arkhan is kinda a celebrity or inside joke NPC and I don't think this was written as the setting for his downfall. It's even suggested Arkhan's Tiamat loyal faction could be an ally in ultimately saving Elturel.
Yes, if everything in Avernus was solved by combat, it's a meat grinder. But if DMs are cognizant that Devils may not be as brutal in Avernus (outside the battlegrounds of the Bloodwar beachhead, where to the death may be compulsory) because they know if they get killed its permadeath for them on their home plane, and two Devils pride themselves and advance in their society via "the art of the deal,"
The fight against the four dragons in Arkham's Tower is obscenely difficult - totally impossible for most parties, actually. The book says it's designed for a 9th level party (where each member will have between 60 and 100 hit points), but the dragons can deal 180 AOE damage ON THE FIRST ROUND. What was WOTC thinking??? Was this just meant to be an unbeatable death trap? It certainly seems that way. I'm pretty sure that only a party of Bearbarians and Arcane Trickster Rogues, or a party filled with spellcasters that can use Hypnotic Pattern, could beat this encounter at the suggested level.
This encounter MIGHT be beatable for most 17th level parties if they manage to roll high on Initiative. I'm getting very tired of impossibly difficult encounters that can't be avoided if you want to advance the story. There should always be SOME way to beat encounters if your party is at the suggested level or higher.
Had to double check the adventure as written as I've deviated from it and have plans to deviate more in the game as we play. I think, and having just read the section, I'm now pretty confidently sure that Arkhan's Tower or the Monument to Tiamat are not designed to be played as inevitable combat. No maps, where the encounters that require violence are mapped out. At Arkhan's tower the big rule is "you're not getting in the tower (because we didn't design a map)" and the dragons etc are there to enforce that rule. Krull is written as someone who wants to parlay at the outset, and Arkhan is given a foundation for a negotiation strategy as well. Later in the adventure, it's suggested Arkhan and his forces could be useful in the final push to thwart Zariel's plan.
Avernus could be a meatgrinder if the only toolkit the party brings is the ability to fight. Two factors encourage the party to develop a strategy besides literally conquering Avernus. 1.) The actual Devils on the plane may not be as relentless in battle with the party or anyone (with the exception of the Blood War beachhead on the Styx, because fighitng to the death may be compulsory for lesser Devils). 2.) Devils seem to advance in society through "the art of the deal" so will likely be more open to, even amused by, the prospect of negotating.
The party is still finishing up The Dungeon of the Dead Three, Vaaz Is next. When/If they get to Candlekeep, part of their tutorial on fiends is that yes Demons are marauders who will endeavor to consume your soul through force. Devils prefer to traffic in souls obtained through the soul's choice. I expect the characters to talk their way through much of Hell, but always having doubts as to whether they're striking the right bargains with the right powers.
I mean you get a stat block for Mahadi of the Wandering Emporium, and you can look up stats for Burney the Barber in the MM ... but I don't think encounters with either are supposed to end in battle. Even if you were to ransack the Wandering Emporium, I don't think you'd long term get away with it.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I started my party of 4 players at lvl 3, because Elfsong Tavern would have demolished them. I'm terrified that my party is going to die in the Dungeon of the dead 3. It's bloody insane! I'll either level them up or I'm going to have to get some npc's to assist them. I also agree that there is way to much information about BG even though the pc's will spend majority of the campaign in hell.
I started my party of 4 players at lvl 3, because Elfsong Tavern would have demolished them. I'm terrified that my party is going to die in the Dungeon of the dead 3. It's bloody insane! I'll either level them up or I'm going to have to get some npc's to assist them. I also agree that there is way to much information about BG even though the pc's will spend majority of the campaign in hell.
One possible fix or force multiplier is have them meet up with the Dragon Cultists before they go into the dungeon and make an uneasy alliance rather than the post-dungeon ambush. You can read how my party did elsewhere, but one thing that disappointed me was that when the Dragon Cultists showed, the party just went no quarter with them, which may have consequences if they ever run into Arkhan.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
For elfsong tavern I had someone roll intelligence and then let them know that if they stay upstairs they can set up a good chokepoint. Dead Eye made it up and a couple of pirates would be at the stairs at a time but they never had more than 3 enemies on the map. Dead eye focused on Tarina. Was still a little close but the pirates didn't care about the players so much as Tarina so had they knocked everyone out they wouldn't have deathblowed so the players could have been revived by the patrons.
For the dungeon of the dead three I made a couple of changes. I removed the ghost axe that couldn'tbe hurt and had no treasure and I placed the bag of beans mummy in that room instead. Since the room seemed like a destination not a room just to travel through they took the extra time and found the hidden mummy. I removed a fight or two for timesake(we can only play 2-3 hours at a time), mainly the skeletons at the room on the right at the end. Left in the Zombie fight because their ac is only 8 and who doesn't want a fight where you hit pretty much every time? For the Deaths Head of Bhaal...I replaced him with a character connected to the backstory of one of my characters. I put him in the cult of Zariel and made him Cult Leader(stat wise, and character wise he was the inner city sect leader), and put on him a letter written from Amrik asking him to kill his brother Mortlock, that way if my players killed both of them without asking questions they still had a breadcrumb to the next quest.
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I Believe there are signs of a clique buildup in the dev team that prevents the connections needed for consistent alignments with the community. I mean that some devs are patting each other's backs and liking each others things because they involve each others characters as NPCs and maybe not providing needed critique on things such as balance and coolness for devs vs fun for players.
I believe BG:DitA obvious slip-ups, UA material power creeping as well as interviews all support this notion.
Am I the only one feeling this?
"Am I the only one feeling this?"
Absolutely not. I started to get this feelings when I saw some celebrities praising the devs and the posture and comments that they (the devs) started to make after that. As if they were celebrities themselves.
Even in the sage advice they started to be less prestative and attentive and started to be more sarcastic and "acid", like people were wasting their time with stupid questions (though I have to admit that some questions ARE pretty absurd or have been answered many times before).
And it does seem that the new material is made to please these said celebrities and keep those praisings coming.
The last UA (the one with the "revised" classes) is just atrocious.
And I Shall Fear no Evil
For I am Evil Incarnate
Glad I found this thread, just told my 4 players that we will actually be starting at level 2! Even then they might still need some help from my side as I'm reading all these horror stories lol.
Wealth beyond measure, outlander.
My group just got to level 4 last night and it's starting to get easier, but there are still some moments where they get scared. An enemy was able to throw three daggers, hit all three, dealing 22 points of damage total. Almost totally downed the cleric in one round.
yes. at least i figured she wanted to save one of those slots to make the zombie
Hey I did almost the same. Started them at lvl 2 and just spaced the leveling out a bit. Also, one of my players is really good at tactics. Almost every encounter is planned out and they like to set traps. It's hard, sure, but nothing that removing a monster here and adjusting an encounter there can't fix.
#OPENDND
My bigger issue with the start of this adventure is the story pacing is a little sloppy and relies on the DM telling the players; guys, ****it, just go with it. From BG to Candlekeep, the players have NO, and I mean NO REASON to go other than, the adventure wants you to go there. I could see some of my players asking themselves, "Why are we doing this? It's not our city sucked into hell."
The start of this module requires a lot of glue work from the DM. But to be fair, that's the case with most modules. It's just part of being a DM. Not nearly as bad as HotDQ though.
#OPENDND
Ok, GM needs to have a bit sense. What you see in monsters are most they can do. For group im leading into this death trap i have send Flennis check after gas exploded (luckily catching noone inside as monk have pulled investigating rogue with lattern back, as she spoted that gas is starting to be catching inside latern itself (she have pulled back and kicked lattern in, drawing rogue down, perfect action and in the door into room, so absolutely fair). So dust and everything in the air, Flennis sends her pets in front as party gets up. Rats attack, causing ruckus, when Flennis gets in. If she would throw Fireball at that moment it would be TPK. She says:"Oh my darlings, seems we have visitors." and sends one Ray of Sickness toward barbarian (and missed), vanquishing back into darkness of side tunnel. Monk bolted after her and did quite a number on her, yet in another round she turns back, made successful touch attack and chill touched monk, efectively sending her down, leaving black palm of frozen skin on chest and stoped heart of unconcius monk behind, scatering into darkness again. Folowing that, monk was risen back to legs and thanks to larger movement got to Flennis again, finishing her by critical through flurry of blows. Pretty deadly encounter, causing fear and tension.
I mean, yes. You can go brutal. Yes, you can instadown your players. Or you can turn toward PC lonely in the tunel and say with creaky spooky voice: "Let's cool that hot head of yours, shall we?" Quess what has bigger effect toward atmosphere? :D Sure, Flennis is quite brutal enemy as is many in this camapign, but its all up to you how far you will go.
Yet honestly, i added some healing potions into torture chamber (as it make sense - there for critical moments when you want to continue with torture, yet victim is down), because some of PC had burned down hitdices at that moment and i needed them to get back into fight).
actually, that creature can only fireball once. the second spellslots is for a different spell
I've been given permission by my DM to DM my first campaign after we finish our current one, and I'll be doing Descent. Here's the big changes I've made to the Baldur's Gate section:
I'm worried that I might be acting too gentle there. Thoughts?
In regards to UA power creep, I think that's kinda inevitable unless developers are very careful to make sure it DOESN'T happen. Consider the Barbarian subclasses in the original PHB. The Totem Warrior is clearly better than the Berserker, and that holds true even if you don't use a Bear totem. Players will eventually discover that certain subclasses are better and gravitate towards those. In order to release content that players like, the developers will avoid making stuff that is weaker than the popular stuff, which causes power creep. That's why they are experimenting with Sorcerer subclasses that have the equivalent of domain spell lists (which many players feel the sorcerer should have had since day 1).
How did this work out for you? I'm going to start on Wednesday evening and just told my players we'll be starting at level two as well.
Had my first go at BG: DitA with my party last night. For the record, I'm a new DM and this a party of 5 that is new to D&D. Our only previous experience was a one-shot ish night a few weeks ago when we played around with combat scenarios and tried to get a better feel for mechanics and whatnot. That being said, we had a pretty successful first night although we didn't get too far.
To set the party up for success, I did have them start at level two. That made a difference, but the biggest reason they were successful is because of how they chose to handle Elfsong Tavern. I had a couple of my players in a game of Baldur's Bones w/ Tarina when the pirates came into the tavern. I role-played Tarina as being frightened and asking for help, expecting the party to defend her, but one of my PCs threw out the idea of helping her escape if she pays the party a certain amount (20 gp and the rest of the party was pissed at him! Loved the idea and hated that he low-balled...lol!)....I set a three minute timer which gave the party enough to to break into one of the rooms, use a rope, and get out of the tavern just as Dead Eye was coming up the stairs. The scene for us basically ended with the party running away down the alley as Dead Eye shouts at them from the window. I think it will be a fun little surprise for them later on.
I did have the party level up to 3 at that point and they made short work of the nightblades and necromite in the bathouse. Ended the evening with them discovering the secret door and stairs that lead into the dungeon under the bathhouse. In hindsight, I probably should have beefed up the nightblades and necromite but oh well. The party had fun and is excited to get into the dungeon in our next session.
I just ran the Elfsong Tavern encounter last night with a party of 6 1st level characters. So, the fight was a 7-on-6 with Tarina joining forces with the party. Dead-Eye was probably the toughest of the enemies due to his HP and multiple attacks. However, the party's paladin was able to take out several pirates single-handed. The only casualties were Tarina and the party's wizard. Both fell due to well-struck blows (i.e. crits) from Dead-Eye and his cohort. Now, my party has a majority of experienced players so they knew how to use their abilities effectively. I could see where a party of new players would struggle with dealing with the encounter.
I made some slight tweaks on the Dungeon of the Dead Three, plus player actions led to things being a bit more kinetic.
TL;DR: I think the adventure is only a TPK box if the characters treat encounters as toe to toe slug fest, and the DM insists all opposition will be absolutely unyielding (also environments presented can be used tactically to advantage and livelihood preservation by all combatants). For example Elfsong Tavern, none of the pirates besides the captain were going to risk their lives to avenge a years ago swindle that some of them weren't even crewed on the Uncivil Serpent before. After the captain got killed with the assistance of the Sauhaugain whose bath got interrupted by the melee (and later tried to barter for the party's Tortle), the surviving pirates left, possibly to fight another time.
FULL STORY: Party is a bit bloated for kid social cohort reason. We have adults playing a ranger and a paladin, then the party's druid, cleric, two rogues and a sorcerer are all played by ten year olds. The adults are intentionally letting the kids have the run of the show and everything they came up with below was entirely unprompted by any adult in the room).
I opted for Flennis to be aloof and more focused on creating her zombie more than anything else. When the characters are fighting the Iron Counsel and his lieutenant, I tweaked/fudged the voice of command so that he's basically invoking a mutual aid clause among the cults. Only cultist remotely within earshot and still alive was Flennis, who irritated sends off her skeleton rat swarm. As the party defeated the iron counsel and the lieutenant, the rats swarmed in, and the rogues trying to aid the prisoner triggered the flying gauntlets. After the fight the party held their ground while two characters escort the prisoner out of the dungeon. The time it took for that escort gives Flennis time to finish her zombie ritual. They tried the door to the gas filled chamber, got a whiff of that, and opted to try a different rout, so took the corridor and stairs from where the rats came. The party gets a to a door and the rogues did a bit of peaking as they watched Flennis escort her zombie out of the morgue, away from them and off to her zombie storage area.
In her absence the party investigated the morgue and find Flennis's spellbook. Sorcererer in party has no use for the book, but determines what and whose it is, and, thinking Flennis is the "big bad" in the dungeon, steals it as potential leverage (they were already spooked by the visuals of the lesser Neccromites' Claws from the Grave, and the booby trapped book lock, which while the sorcerer avoided damage did provide a jump scare). They follow Flennis and zombie's foot prints to the skeleton altar. Sorcerer susses the skeleton trick and now the party has a skeleton squad. Their tracking takes them to the gas filled room, where they recognize the gas again, but also hear some sloshing footsteps through the water, Flennis being kind of oblivious and not trying to be stealthy in her dungeon laboratory. Party decides to ignite the gas room via torch toss as Flennis steps in. Big explosion, when the dust settles, Flennis casts darkness to retreat back the way she came. The characters (remember mostly new/inexperienced players) actually do "attack the darkness" and explore the phenomenon for a bit before deciding to wait it out. This gives Flennis plenty of time to rally the cult forces on her side-ish of the secret door (the zombies +1, the Fists of Bane who were sleeping in their armor (seriously...?) in their down room, and the Fist who was watching over the secret door. Flennis isn't a tactician, but a death and undeath worshipper, so she sets up four fists in the room following the gas room with bows as initial fodder, and keep her precious zombies in reserve with her in the hallway with the three sarcophagus rooms, and the last Fist as a bodyguard. Missile combat between party and Fists goes quicker than I thought, Zombies come in as next wave. Cleric manages to turn all but two, party makes short work of the hold outs. Sorcerer sends skeletons to scout and engage whatever may be up the stairs in the hallway, they get hit by scorching ray, and an arrow. Sorcerer withdraws the skeletons (precious toys I guess) and Rogues and high CON Sorcerer basically bait another blast of scorching ray, with a cleric readied to heal them. A Paladin and Druid combat shaped into wolf rush the corridor. Paladin picks the Fist, Druid/wolf gets a critical (yay pack tactic roll) on Flennis and takes her prone. After the prior explosion, two rounds of wolf wrestling v chill touch, Flennis is down to 10 hp, so misty steps to the other side of the hallway, trying to escape via the chamber the party had come through. She wasn't expecting (nor was I) the skeleton squad to tackle her and take her down into the water (2 nat 20s on grapples plus a third successful grapple), which is where we broke till next station..
The Sorcerer wants Flennis alive, again they're thinking she's "the big bad" and the characters will fight opponents who insist on fighting to the death, but the party is pretty resentful about being press-ganged into being a cult kill team for the Flaming Fist (for a session 0 we had a waterborne humanitarian mission to give the new players some sense of the mechanics and performing ability checks, that endeavor put them very much on the side of Elturel refugees, Flaming Fist not so much). Assuming someone pulls Flennis out of the water before the skeletons overdo the "grab her" order and drown her, I think Flennis will likely use her 3rd level slot to misty step (it's the only verbal only spell she's got) again and get the heck out of the dungeon (the party will either find her body at the feet of the Dragon Cultists, or she'll lead some sort of reprisal attack before the characters leave for Candlekeep later in the adventure, depending how badly the party wants to see her again/disappointed they were by not capturing her).
About the zombies now. They've retreated to the chamber where they were "mapped" on the dungeon. Their cowering in their room was noted by the party's ranger (preferred enemy undead) when he, Palladin and druid wolf rushed the corridor. Ranger closed and barred the door to the room. Generally, after zombies recover from being "turned" (which is in three more rounds), do you think they should be more likely to just go back into torpor lurking in the room, or would they be animated to get back into the fight, bash down the door etc? There's some time constraints game wise (we're switching to two hour sessions every other week through the summer), so I may just rule it "problem contained, you can move on" but I think I'm going to play it that if the party is still in the hallway or their point of entry into the hallway by the time the zombies are unturned, its door bashing time, otherwise they just go back to zombie dreamland.
So yeah, so far BG:DitA is child's play. Tough child's play, but there were some good rolls, some impressive ingenuity and tactics and my dice just weren't matching them.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The fight against the four dragons in Arkham's Tower is obscenely difficult - totally impossible for most parties, actually. The book says it's designed for a 9th level party (where each member will have between 60 and 100 hit points), but the dragons can deal 180 AOE damage ON THE FIRST ROUND. What was WOTC thinking??? Was this just meant to be an unbeatable death trap? It certainly seems that way. I'm pretty sure that only a party of Bearbarians and Arcane Trickster Rogues, or a party filled with spellcasters that can use Hypnotic Pattern, could beat this encounter at the suggested level.
This encounter MIGHT be beatable for most 17th level parties if they manage to roll high on Initiative. I'm getting very tired of impossibly difficult encounters that can't be avoided if you want to advance the story. There should always be SOME way to beat encounters if your party is at the suggested level or higher.
Not there yet, but I think Arkan's Tower, and the subsequent location of Arkhan before Tiamat's prison/cave, aren't written for a fight. Unlike other areas of Avernus where combat's almost mandated or likely, there's no map of the tower or Tiamat's monument. The text provides/suggests Krull and Arkham's respective negotiation strategies and the respective small armies garrisoned at each locale should discourage not invite an attempt to force the matter by combat. Meta-game wise, Arkhan is kinda a celebrity or inside joke NPC and I don't think this was written as the setting for his downfall. It's even suggested Arkhan's Tiamat loyal faction could be an ally in ultimately saving Elturel.
Yes, if everything in Avernus was solved by combat, it's a meat grinder. But if DMs are cognizant that Devils may not be as brutal in Avernus (outside the battlegrounds of the Bloodwar beachhead, where to the death may be compulsory) because they know if they get killed its permadeath for them on their home plane, and two Devils pride themselves and advance in their society via "the art of the deal,"
Had to double check the adventure as written as I've deviated from it and have plans to deviate more in the game as we play. I think, and having just read the section, I'm now pretty confidently sure that Arkhan's Tower or the Monument to Tiamat are not designed to be played as inevitable combat. No maps, where the encounters that require violence are mapped out. At Arkhan's tower the big rule is "you're not getting in the tower (because we didn't design a map)" and the dragons etc are there to enforce that rule. Krull is written as someone who wants to parlay at the outset, and Arkhan is given a foundation for a negotiation strategy as well. Later in the adventure, it's suggested Arkhan and his forces could be useful in the final push to thwart Zariel's plan.
Avernus could be a meatgrinder if the only toolkit the party brings is the ability to fight. Two factors encourage the party to develop a strategy besides literally conquering Avernus. 1.) The actual Devils on the plane may not be as relentless in battle with the party or anyone (with the exception of the Blood War beachhead on the Styx, because fighitng to the death may be compulsory for lesser Devils). 2.) Devils seem to advance in society through "the art of the deal" so will likely be more open to, even amused by, the prospect of negotating.
The party is still finishing up The Dungeon of the Dead Three, Vaaz Is next. When/If they get to Candlekeep, part of their tutorial on fiends is that yes Demons are marauders who will endeavor to consume your soul through force. Devils prefer to traffic in souls obtained through the soul's choice. I expect the characters to talk their way through much of Hell, but always having doubts as to whether they're striking the right bargains with the right powers.
I mean you get a stat block for Mahadi of the Wandering Emporium, and you can look up stats for Burney the Barber in the MM ... but I don't think encounters with either are supposed to end in battle. Even if you were to ransack the Wandering Emporium, I don't think you'd long term get away with it.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I started my party of 4 players at lvl 3, because Elfsong Tavern would have demolished them. I'm terrified that my party is going to die in the Dungeon of the dead 3. It's bloody insane! I'll either level them up or I'm going to have to get some npc's to assist them. I also agree that there is way to much information about BG even though the pc's will spend majority of the campaign in hell.
One possible fix or force multiplier is have them meet up with the Dragon Cultists before they go into the dungeon and make an uneasy alliance rather than the post-dungeon ambush. You can read how my party did elsewhere, but one thing that disappointed me was that when the Dragon Cultists showed, the party just went no quarter with them, which may have consequences if they ever run into Arkhan.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
For elfsong tavern I had someone roll intelligence and then let them know that if they stay upstairs they can set up a good chokepoint. Dead Eye made it up and a couple of pirates would be at the stairs at a time but they never had more than 3 enemies on the map. Dead eye focused on Tarina. Was still a little close but the pirates didn't care about the players so much as Tarina so had they knocked everyone out they wouldn't have deathblowed so the players could have been revived by the patrons.
For the dungeon of the dead three I made a couple of changes. I removed the ghost axe that couldn'tbe hurt and had no treasure and I placed the bag of beans mummy in that room instead. Since the room seemed like a destination not a room just to travel through they took the extra time and found the hidden mummy. I removed a fight or two for timesake(we can only play 2-3 hours at a time), mainly the skeletons at the room on the right at the end. Left in the Zombie fight because their ac is only 8 and who doesn't want a fight where you hit pretty much every time? For the Deaths Head of Bhaal...I replaced him with a character connected to the backstory of one of my characters. I put him in the cult of Zariel and made him Cult Leader(stat wise, and character wise he was the inner city sect leader), and put on him a letter written from Amrik asking him to kill his brother Mortlock, that way if my players killed both of them without asking questions they still had a breadcrumb to the next quest.