I am trying to figure out how to award treasure to my players after they defeat Cryovain. How large should the horde be and at 6th level what is appropriate amount of loot for a party of 3 adventures. The characters are a Champion, Lore Bard, and Evocation Wizard. There are no guidelines in the Essentials Kit Rulebook and I can not find any in the Basic Rules.
Any suggestions would be welcome or ideas would be welcome.
Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide has a set of tables for random treasure. Since they're fighting a dragon, the treasure hoard table would be appropriate. Alternatively, if you don't have access to the DMG, you could just select a treasure - a set amount of coins, some item or items of value, and maybe a magic item or two. If you want to randomize the coins in this case, the Treasure Hoard table for CR 5-10 creatures suggests 2d6 x 100 cp, 2d6 x 1000 sp 6d6 x 100 gp and 3d6 x 10 pp. If you're concerned about giving the characters too many magic items, you could always make trade goods, gems or artwork a part of the hoard. Trade goods may even make sense thematically, since the dragon has been terrorizing the area around Phandalin and may have attacked a caravan or two. Another alternative is to have the trade goods or missing art objects as part of the hoard and have Harbin or someone offer a handsome reward for their return (say 200 to 500 gp or so, depending on the object's value), but that would be awkward to retcon if the party has already gone off in search of the dragon.
I have not yet purchased the DMG. This is my first campaign in 30+ years and I am playing with my wife and kids while we are all home. If we like doing it together I'll purchase the DMG and put more time into learning the ins and outs of 5e.
Given your advice I think I'll focus on the shiny stuff. Maybe toss in a magic item or two. I don't want t the players over powered for the next module.
If everyone likes playing after DIP we will continue on to Storm Lords Wrath.
It's best to give mostly consumable items at lower levels, though I'd expect the party as a whole to have acquired 2 Uncommon permanents by that level (not necessarily in this hoard).
It's best to give mostly consumable items at lower levels, though I'd expect the party as a whole to have acquired 2 Uncommon permanents by that level (not necessarily in this hoard).
This was my concern as well. Although I haven't played it, I have looked through DoIP and it seems to have some oddly powerful items for a level 1-6 adventure. This was the reason I suggested artwork or gems in the treasure hoard. Still, since the OP has only the Basic Rules at the moment, there is a fairly limited pool of items to choose from. There are only 3 types of potions (5 if you count potion of healing subtypes), and a limited array of spells to choose from to award the characters a scroll. Most of the items listed are permanent, and some are quite powerful for lower level characters, such as the gauntlets of ogre power.
Well, I did kind of screw up during character creation. I had them roll 4d6, reroll 1's and do so for three sets of ability scores. They then chose the set of ability scores they wanted. This created some very OP characters for low level play. For example, I allowed variant humans and my son chose to be fighter. He ended up with a 20 str at first level, 18 on the roll, + 1 due to variant human and Heavy Armor Master, in addition to high dex and con. The bard and wizard have similarly high stats.
The plus side is that given 3 of then have never played a TTRPG they do not have to run sidekicks and can focus on the mechanics of the game with little distraction.
All that to say they can do a lot without permanent magical items. Giving them too many may nerf further adventures and I don't yet know enough to balance encounters on the fly. Though given their enthusiasm, I may be learning soon.
I think DoIP may be heavy on magical items because it is an entry point, so the rule of cool is a very important part of the hook. And there is nothing cooler then waving a magic sword around.
Well, I did kind of screw up during character creation. I had them roll 4d6, reroll 1's and do so for three sets of ability scores. They then chose the set of ability scores they wanted. This created some very OP characters for low level play. For example, I allowed variant humans and my son chose to be fighter. He ended up with a 20 str at first level, 18 on the roll, + 1 due to variant human and Heavy Armor Master, in addition to high dex and con. The bard and wizard have similarly high stats.
The plus side is that given 3 of then have never played a TTRPG they do not have to run sidekicks and can focus on the mechanics of the game with little distraction.
All that to say they can do a lot without permanent magical items. Giving them too many may nerf further adventures and I don't yet know enough to balance encounters on the fly. Though given their enthusiasm, I may be learning soon.
I think DoIP may be heavy on magical items because it is an entry point, so the rule of cool is a very important part of the hook. And there is nothing cooler then waving a magic sword around.
Thanks again for your thoughtful replies.
Yikes on the stat rolls. I don't even allow re-roll ones on the 4d6 drop one rolls, although some Discord servers I have played on do. I can see that easily making some OP characters even without rolling multiple sets and choosing the "best."
You make a good point with the rule of cool, but I figured that with those items already being distributed during the adventure, it may be too much to have more permanent items be part of the dragon's treasure, even though it fits with a dragon thematically. It also must be said that one way to play this adventure is with a single character using the sidekicks rule, so the powerful items were probably added with that in mind - and the Dragonslayer sword is probably a must for a solo character with or without sidekicks.
It may take a bit of work on your part, but it is possible to balance future encounters for OP characters with OP magic items. You'll just need to account for the average damage per round for these characters being higher (both due to higher average hit and damage rolls from enchantments and from stat bonuses.) *That being said, having the characters face just one or two additional trivial or easy monsters can turn a mundane encounter into a challenge. You can also be tactical with your monsters, provided that their intelligence scores and/or wisdom scores make it believable. That can make a first level encounter with a few goblins hard, or even deadly depending on terrain and numbers advantage.
With Cryovain being fairly new to the area, you could have his hoard be fairly small. Plus, how much would the adventurers be able to carry down a mountain with them? Maybe they can each only carry a few things back with them before the orcs hear the dragon is slain and want their stronghold back.
After thinking about it over night, I think his hoard will be fairly small focused mostly on diamonds, platinum, silver and a bit of artwork that invokes the idea of ice, cold, winter, and a being in a state of desperation. Total value somewhere around 5,000 GP. Reason being the Shrine of Savars quest in DoIP that can net the players 2500 GP. The dragon as the capstone of the adventure should have a good deal more meaning to the party, set them up to be bigger heroes with better gear and maybe let them create a home base or business in the next series of adventures.
I may need to get Matt Coliville's work on retainers and strongholds.
I have been test playing their characters and have found that with intelligent play I can make even kobolds very deadly. If I just go in and try to bash it out my son's Fighter can take on 3 orcs with a reasonable chance of success. Heavy armor master at low levels seems to be make any encounter easy, and seems to buff a players HP by about 50%, added to second wind his first level fighter has the equivalent to nearly double the starting HP.
The adventure says that Cryovain himself was pushed out by a larger dragon, so not having a horde yet might actually make sense. I've been using that as a reason little-to-no treasure is found on the many orcs encountered throughout the adventure. You could have more treasure in the dead Orc war chief's room, or have more of the wall between his room and the dragon's roof broken down so that Cryovain could have gotten in a looted it.
If that doesn't satisfy, you could also have the party be met back in Phandalin by a messenger from the Lord's Alliance pledging a reward for slaying the dragon (because they realize the dragon will destabilize the Sword Coast and harm trade). This could be claimed in any of the larger towns (assuming you want to lead adventurers there for the Storm Lord's trilogy or Waterdeep, or Neverwinter).
Hmm, without servants, and without treasure-bearing adventurers who die in a dragon's lair, how DO dragons accumulate a hoard?
Fairly certain there is supposed to be no hoard at all based on the book page 30 saying that the stone cold reavers (incorrectly) * believe the dragon has a hoard
I had a few treasure items and a magic item of my own invention: staff of dragon summoning with no charge. This was a reflection of my alternate explanation for Cryovain- a sorcerer summoned him in an attempt to control a dragon, which failed. The sorcerer lives in Kryptgarten forest, in the old mansion of a half elf half dwarf civilization that was destroyed by drow and duergar many years ago. When the players seek him out, they discover that he is in the middle of completing a ritual to become a lich.
My thought is to have white gemstones (the valuable ones being diamonds so the cleric can use them as components rather than driving up the party's coffers further after the Bell Windfall), and a crazy amount of exclusively silver coins all encased in ice surrounding Cryovain's nest, making a shimmering glittering wall of ice, the beginnings of a huge lair made of ice and treasure. The silver is a nice aesthetic touch but also a sneaky way to make the hoard seem bigger than it is!
My players are about to climb the mountains to Icespire Hold. Given the history of Cryovain, there's a reason why he doesn't have much treasure. He was taken captive by the Frost Giant Jarl Storvald and was kept chained to his warship. Cryovain recently escaped his captor and flew south to avoid not only Storvald, but the stronger dragons in that area. He just recently took up residence at the top of Icespire Hold, and hasn't had much time to amass much of a hoard. However, I am going to give my players an opportunity to gain some treasure, if they defeat the Stone Cold Reavers and Cryovain. The catch is that the treasure is stored in a large iron chest (for ease of transport by Cryovain) and is iced over on the roof, so Cryovain can keep an eye on it. The players will have to find a way to melt or chip the ice despite it being windy Arctic conditions on the roof. The treasure will be mostly gems, coin and art stuff, but a couple of minor magical items as well. I've also given Cryovain some changes, since I am running a party of 8 sixth level characters. He's now a not quite so adult dragon, stronger than a young dragon but not quite as strong as a fully adult dragon. He also has Legendary Resistance and Lair Actions. Have fun!!
Kassoon's treasure generator is a great resource for generating individual treasure and hoards using the DMG tables; Treasure Generator - Kassoon.com.
For a CR 5-10 creature hoard it generates things like;
CR5-10 Hoard 1: 1100 cp 9000 sp 1600 gp 40 pp Periapt of health Potion of invulnerability
25 gp valuables (100 gp total): Small gold bracelet Black velvet mask stitched with silver thread Embroidered silk handkerchief Pair of engraved bone dice
CR5-10 Hoard 2: 900 cp 6000 sp 1900 gp 110 pp
If you determine he has a much smaller hoard, just use the lower CR table;
CR0-4 Hoard 1: 2600 cp 800 sp 80 gp
25 gp valuables (150 gp total): Cloth-of-gold vestments Small mirror set in a painted wooden frame 2 Copper chalice with silver filigree Silver ewer Small gold bracelet
CR0-4 Hoard 2: 2100 cp 1000 sp 100 gp
And since you're the DM, you can use anything it suggests as a base and then customize it however you like.
Cryovain hasn't much treasure when encountered in its new lair in the Sword Mountains because its arrival is sudden, just moved in after being driven from lands farther north by more powerful dragons as explain in the Adventure Background at the begining. You can always add more treasure but it's how the adventure was originally written.
Having said that, if i were to give Cryovain a treasure, i'd use Hoard Treasure found in the Dungeon Master Guide as suggestion to randomly determine the treasure of a CR 6 monster in it's lair, with my own little touch. For exemple;
Treasure: 1,105 cp, 8,100 sp, 2,560 gp, 67 pp, 3 obsidian (10 gp), moonstone (50 gp), bloodstone (50 gp), amethyst geode (100 gp), ivory earrings (10gp), gold ankle bracelet ( 25gp), small size silver chalice with giant engraving (125 gp), platinum ring set with 3 amber (250 gp), elven princess mythril crown (250 gp), dwarven adamantine warhammer, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Healing, a mysterious map and a Spellscroll of Augury in an electrum scrollcase (100 gp), a wooden Ring of Protection, and a glassteel Scimitar +1.
Actually the longer term history of Cryovain, is that his motive is to guard his eggd and mate. And they were both enslave to frost giants, after the storm. Of Marches. By, tone of their leaders Jarl strovald. The they escape, but got separated and cryovain on his own, without his mate. Searched for a place to be, while also avoiding the stronger dragons. He then moved into icespire. Forcing the orcs out. Which causes them to take of the shrine of savras from the were rats. Which forced them into mountain toe gold mine. Which kind of forces the true beginning of the story on that module. Where You go and help Don Jon Raskin take back the mine, after he bought it.
I am trying to figure out how to award treasure to my players after they defeat Cryovain. How large should the horde be and at 6th level what is appropriate amount of loot for a party of 3 adventures. The characters are a Champion, Lore Bard, and Evocation Wizard. There are no guidelines in the Essentials Kit Rulebook and I can not find any in the Basic Rules.
Any suggestions would be welcome or ideas would be welcome.
Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide has a set of tables for random treasure. Since they're fighting a dragon, the treasure hoard table would be appropriate. Alternatively, if you don't have access to the DMG, you could just select a treasure - a set amount of coins, some item or items of value, and maybe a magic item or two. If you want to randomize the coins in this case, the Treasure Hoard table for CR 5-10 creatures suggests 2d6 x 100 cp, 2d6 x 1000 sp 6d6 x 100 gp and 3d6 x 10 pp. If you're concerned about giving the characters too many magic items, you could always make trade goods, gems or artwork a part of the hoard. Trade goods may even make sense thematically, since the dragon has been terrorizing the area around Phandalin and may have attacked a caravan or two. Another alternative is to have the trade goods or missing art objects as part of the hoard and have Harbin or someone offer a handsome reward for their return (say 200 to 500 gp or so, depending on the object's value), but that would be awkward to retcon if the party has already gone off in search of the dragon.
Thanks for the suggestions crowbr76.
I have not yet purchased the DMG. This is my first campaign in 30+ years and I am playing with my wife and kids while we are all home. If we like doing it together I'll purchase the DMG and put more time into learning the ins and outs of 5e.
Given your advice I think I'll focus on the shiny stuff. Maybe toss in a magic item or two. I don't want t the players over powered for the next module.
If everyone likes playing after DIP we will continue on to Storm Lords Wrath.
Thanks again for your help.
It's best to give mostly consumable items at lower levels, though I'd expect the party as a whole to have acquired 2 Uncommon permanents by that level (not necessarily in this hoard).
This was my concern as well. Although I haven't played it, I have looked through DoIP and it seems to have some oddly powerful items for a level 1-6 adventure. This was the reason I suggested artwork or gems in the treasure hoard. Still, since the OP has only the Basic Rules at the moment, there is a fairly limited pool of items to choose from. There are only 3 types of potions (5 if you count potion of healing subtypes), and a limited array of spells to choose from to award the characters a scroll. Most of the items listed are permanent, and some are quite powerful for lower level characters, such as the gauntlets of ogre power.
Well, I did kind of screw up during character creation. I had them roll 4d6, reroll 1's and do so for three sets of ability scores. They then chose the set of ability scores they wanted. This created some very OP characters for low level play. For example, I allowed variant humans and my son chose to be fighter. He ended up with a 20 str at first level, 18 on the roll, + 1 due to variant human and Heavy Armor Master, in addition to high dex and con. The bard and wizard have similarly high stats.
The plus side is that given 3 of then have never played a TTRPG they do not have to run sidekicks and can focus on the mechanics of the game with little distraction.
All that to say they can do a lot without permanent magical items. Giving them too many may nerf further adventures and I don't yet know enough to balance encounters on the fly. Though given their enthusiasm, I may be learning soon.
I think DoIP may be heavy on magical items because it is an entry point, so the rule of cool is a very important part of the hook. And there is nothing cooler then waving a magic sword around.
Thanks again for your thoughtful replies.
Yikes on the stat rolls. I don't even allow re-roll ones on the 4d6 drop one rolls, although some Discord servers I have played on do. I can see that easily making some OP characters even without rolling multiple sets and choosing the "best."
You make a good point with the rule of cool, but I figured that with those items already being distributed during the adventure, it may be too much to have more permanent items be part of the dragon's treasure, even though it fits with a dragon thematically. It also must be said that one way to play this adventure is with a single character using the sidekicks rule, so the powerful items were probably added with that in mind - and the Dragonslayer sword is probably a must for a solo character with or without sidekicks.
It may take a bit of work on your part, but it is possible to balance future encounters for OP characters with OP magic items. You'll just need to account for the average damage per round for these characters being higher (both due to higher average hit and damage rolls from enchantments and from stat bonuses.) *That being said, having the characters face just one or two additional trivial or easy monsters can turn a mundane encounter into a challenge. You can also be tactical with your monsters, provided that their intelligence scores and/or wisdom scores make it believable. That can make a first level encounter with a few goblins hard, or even deadly depending on terrain and numbers advantage.
*Edit: I forgot to say additional.
With Cryovain being fairly new to the area, you could have his hoard be fairly small. Plus, how much would the adventurers be able to carry down a mountain with them? Maybe they can each only carry a few things back with them before the orcs hear the dragon is slain and want their stronghold back.
All good ideas and observations. Thanks everyone.
After thinking about it over night, I think his hoard will be fairly small focused mostly on diamonds, platinum, silver and a bit of artwork that invokes the idea of ice, cold, winter, and a being in a state of desperation. Total value somewhere around 5,000 GP. Reason being the Shrine of Savars quest in DoIP that can net the players 2500 GP. The dragon as the capstone of the adventure should have a good deal more meaning to the party, set them up to be bigger heroes with better gear and maybe let them create a home base or business in the next series of adventures.
I may need to get Matt Coliville's work on retainers and strongholds.
I have been test playing their characters and have found that with intelligent play I can make even kobolds very deadly. If I just go in and try to bash it out my son's Fighter can take on 3 orcs with a reasonable chance of success. Heavy armor master at low levels seems to be make any encounter easy, and seems to buff a players HP by about 50%, added to second wind his first level fighter has the equivalent to nearly double the starting HP.
The adventure says that Cryovain himself was pushed out by a larger dragon, so not having a horde yet might actually make sense. I've been using that as a reason little-to-no treasure is found on the many orcs encountered throughout the adventure. You could have more treasure in the dead Orc war chief's room, or have more of the wall between his room and the dragon's roof broken down so that Cryovain could have gotten in a looted it.
If that doesn't satisfy, you could also have the party be met back in Phandalin by a messenger from the Lord's Alliance pledging a reward for slaying the dragon (because they realize the dragon will destabilize the Sword Coast and harm trade). This could be claimed in any of the larger towns (assuming you want to lead adventurers there for the Storm Lord's trilogy or Waterdeep, or Neverwinter).
Hmm, without servants, and without treasure-bearing adventurers who die in a dragon's lair, how DO dragons accumulate a hoard?
Fairly certain there is supposed to be no hoard at all based on the book page 30 saying that the stone cold reavers (incorrectly) * believe the dragon has a hoard
if the party also take out the mercs there are 4 horses for them to use
“Animals die, friends die, and I shall die, but one thing never dies, and that is the reputation we leave behind at our death.”
I had a few treasure items and a magic item of my own invention: staff of dragon summoning with no charge. This was a reflection of my alternate explanation for Cryovain- a sorcerer summoned him in an attempt to control a dragon, which failed. The sorcerer lives in Kryptgarten forest, in the old mansion of a half elf half dwarf civilization that was destroyed by drow and duergar many years ago. When the players seek him out, they discover that he is in the middle of completing a ritual to become a lich.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
I am about to run this fight, wish me luck!
My thought is to have white gemstones (the valuable ones being diamonds so the cleric can use them as components rather than driving up the party's coffers further after the Bell Windfall), and a crazy amount of exclusively silver coins all encased in ice surrounding Cryovain's nest, making a shimmering glittering wall of ice, the beginnings of a huge lair made of ice and treasure. The silver is a nice aesthetic touch but also a sneaky way to make the hoard seem bigger than it is!
My players are about to climb the mountains to Icespire Hold. Given the history of Cryovain, there's a reason why he doesn't have much treasure. He was taken captive by the Frost Giant Jarl Storvald and was kept chained to his warship. Cryovain recently escaped his captor and flew south to avoid not only Storvald, but the stronger dragons in that area. He just recently took up residence at the top of Icespire Hold, and hasn't had much time to amass much of a hoard. However, I am going to give my players an opportunity to gain some treasure, if they defeat the Stone Cold Reavers and Cryovain. The catch is that the treasure is stored in a large iron chest (for ease of transport by Cryovain) and is iced over on the roof, so Cryovain can keep an eye on it. The players will have to find a way to melt or chip the ice despite it being windy Arctic conditions on the roof. The treasure will be mostly gems, coin and art stuff, but a couple of minor magical items as well. I've also given Cryovain some changes, since I am running a party of 8 sixth level characters. He's now a not quite so adult dragon, stronger than a young dragon but not quite as strong as a fully adult dragon. He also has Legendary Resistance and Lair Actions. Have fun!!
Kassoon's treasure generator is a great resource for generating individual treasure and hoards using the DMG tables; Treasure Generator - Kassoon.com.
For a CR 5-10 creature hoard it generates things like;
CR5-10 Hoard 1:
1100 cp
9000 sp
1600 gp
40 pp
Periapt of health
Potion of invulnerability
25 gp valuables (100 gp total):
Small gold bracelet
Black velvet mask stitched with silver thread
Embroidered silk handkerchief
Pair of engraved bone dice
CR5-10 Hoard 2:
900 cp
6000 sp
1900 gp
110 pp
If you determine he has a much smaller hoard, just use the lower CR table;
CR0-4 Hoard 1:
2600 cp
800 sp
80 gp
25 gp valuables (150 gp total):
Cloth-of-gold vestments
Small mirror set in a painted wooden frame
2 Copper chalice with silver filigree
Silver ewer
Small gold bracelet
CR0-4 Hoard 2:
2100 cp
1000 sp
100 gp
And since you're the DM, you can use anything it suggests as a base and then customize it however you like.
Cryovain hasn't much treasure when encountered in its new lair in the Sword Mountains because its arrival is sudden, just moved in after being driven from lands farther north by more powerful dragons as explain in the Adventure Background at the begining. You can always add more treasure but it's how the adventure was originally written.
Having said that, if i were to give Cryovain a treasure, i'd use Hoard Treasure found in the Dungeon Master Guide as suggestion to randomly determine the treasure of a CR 6 monster in it's lair, with my own little touch. For exemple;
Actually the longer term history of Cryovain, is that his motive is to guard his eggd and mate. And they were both enslave to frost giants, after the storm. Of Marches. By, tone of their leaders Jarl strovald. The they escape, but got separated and cryovain on his own, without his mate. Searched for a place to be, while also avoiding the stronger dragons. He then moved into icespire. Forcing the orcs out. Which causes them to take of the shrine of savras from the were rats. Which forced them into mountain toe gold mine. Which kind of forces the true beginning of the story on that module. Where You go and help Don Jon Raskin take back the mine, after he bought it.