I have a dragon slaying campaign planned and they will have to kill a few ancient dragons and I wanted to talk with this sort of encounter over with people so I don't screw up. Theoretical party size is five.
What would be the bare minimum level where the could kill one? Any fun ideas to give them a fighting chance if they are too weak to kill one as is? Any dumb instakills I should watch out for?
I do not have Bags of Holding or multiple planes in my homebrew world. I just find them to be boring and I don't hound my players about equipment either so I don't see the point in including them.
Gonna depend on the situation of the fight, if you know what you're up against, come equipped with things like potions of cold resistance and don't have to fight through any encounters to get there, a level 10 party could probably take down an ancient white dragon.
5 level 10 players couldn't take down an ancient dragon. (unless they are very disproportionate with magic items maybe) It's a very hard encounter for 5 level 15 players. You're also going to need to consider if it's in or out of it's lair. I'm going to assume in it's lair because they will want all the treasure right? An Ancient dragon in it's lair is a tricky, sneaky, badass that is notoriously hard to defeat. DM'ing an ancient dragon encounter in it's lair is also very difficult. The dragon will have all sorts of ways to avoid the party while letting it's lair wear them down. You will need to plan out it's lair in detail. Where the dragon is going to try to lead the party to suffer max damage from each lair action. It's going to do things like force them into a bottleneck to maximize it's breath weapon. Things like that.
In terms of the players succeeding... Yes, cold resistance. Also anything that helps them move over, or avoid difficult terrain. Misty step, teleport, fly, etc, will be a huge help. I wouldn't be too worried about dumb instakills from the players. I'd be more worried about a total party wipe.
Last year I ran a campaign with 2 adult dragon encounters. One out of lair, one in. It was a party of 4 experienced level 12 players. They didn't have too much of a hard time with the one out of it's lair, but they only survived the lair encounter by the barest of margins and it was only due to some very lucky rolls towards the end of the encounter. Wiping the party was a very real possibility, as I think it should be when facing a dragon :)
Ancient dragons are clever, even the dumb one, or how else did they live through centuries of adventurers trying to kill them. Even in their lair, they’ll have an escape plan. A roof with a hole in the ceiling (maybe hidden by an illusion), a pool with an underground river leading out. While not cowards, they’re too smart to stay until the end of a fight they know they’re going to lose. Players will expect them to fly, but make sure you use their other movement types, some have swim speeds, some burrow or climb which I bet the PCs will be less prepared for. Let them try targeting the ancient blue when it’s 40 feet underground, and spends a couple rounds waiting for its breath to recharge. Or when it burrows under the fighter and pops up behind the wizard to chomp on the unarmored one. And burrowing can work in multiple dimensions: down under the floor, then up and out of a wall or onto a convenient perch they prepared for just such an occasion.
I could see lots of them with kobold minions serving them, forcing the melee types to spend time positioning themselves to protect casters. Or just having the kobolds hang back shooting arrows at the cleric to force concentration saves, because I’m assuming the cleric will bless the party. A really smart one might give it’s minions a different damage type. The party will be hopped up on fire resistance when they go to fight the red, and the red knows this, so he gives his kobolds poisoned arrows, for example.
And depending on how your world works, they might talk to each other. Not as friends, necessarily, but as respected peers, like the mob bosses in The Godfather. So, when someone kills the ancient white, that would probably put the others on alert. When the next one dies, they will beef up their lair protections, and maybe start sending assassins after the party.
After effects can be cool too. The dragon was likely top dog for a large area. When it dies, who or what will try to fill the power vacuum?
5 level 10 players couldn't take down an ancient dragon. (unless they are very disproportionate with magic items maybe) It's a very hard encounter for 5 level 15 players.
Understand that 'very hard' means 'takes up 25% of daily encounter budget'. Prepared characters who can go all out can exceed those budgets by a lot. That said, my assumptions stated above (basically, a straight up brawl where the PCs can prep ahead of time) aren't all that likely.
Oh, I didn't mean 'very hard' as in easy, medium, hard, deadly. I just meant very hard as in difficult. But going on that scale, just looked it up, It looks like it would range from 13th to 16th as a 'hard' encounter. So my estimate isn't too far off. Especially having to deal with a lair. But I was going off past experiences.
Players don't really get a chance to prepare, like you said. So I don't think using the standard scale is so reliable. It's not likely they can rest much before hand with many dragons having lesser minions that serve them that they'll need to fight through. Also the affects of their lair on the surroundings is like 5 miles or something. So they'll be battling the elements as well.
Anyways, just some further thoughts. Personally I think the CR rating is pretty messed up. (not that this is so related to the OP) I guess it's fine as a reference point but to make encounters interesting you have to delve deeper than just the CR :)
lairs were actually something I had forgotten about. Although, i'll maybe only uses the in the final dungeon of this particular plot, if that.
My premise involves dragons being dominated and therefore will almost universally be outside their lairs. The domination will reduce intelligence but not by much(like -2 from normal)
prep will be very dependent on the players, at least in the earlier of the encounters I got planned
i do like the burrowing idea quite a bit, Xalthu. Thanks for that one.
resistance potions seem like a boring solution, its not off the table but i'd be more inclined to give out resistance based armours and only enough for one or two PCS so that breath weapon remains something to be avoided.
I'm planning for the first ancient dragon encounter to be bare minimum at lvl 12, I was think of starting at around 10 cause i'm gonna be throwing some nastiness at them all campaign
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I have a dragon slaying campaign planned and they will have to kill a few ancient dragons and I wanted to talk with this sort of encounter over with people so I don't screw up. Theoretical party size is five.
What would be the bare minimum level where the could kill one? Any fun ideas to give them a fighting chance if they are too weak to kill one as is? Any dumb instakills I should watch out for?
I do not have Bags of Holding or multiple planes in my homebrew world. I just find them to be boring and I don't hound my players about equipment either so I don't see the point in including them.
Gonna depend on the situation of the fight, if you know what you're up against, come equipped with things like potions of cold resistance and don't have to fight through any encounters to get there, a level 10 party could probably take down an ancient white dragon.
5 level 10 players couldn't take down an ancient dragon. (unless they are very disproportionate with magic items maybe) It's a very hard encounter for 5 level 15 players. You're also going to need to consider if it's in or out of it's lair. I'm going to assume in it's lair because they will want all the treasure right? An Ancient dragon in it's lair is a tricky, sneaky, badass that is notoriously hard to defeat. DM'ing an ancient dragon encounter in it's lair is also very difficult. The dragon will have all sorts of ways to avoid the party while letting it's lair wear them down. You will need to plan out it's lair in detail. Where the dragon is going to try to lead the party to suffer max damage from each lair action. It's going to do things like force them into a bottleneck to maximize it's breath weapon. Things like that.
In terms of the players succeeding... Yes, cold resistance. Also anything that helps them move over, or avoid difficult terrain. Misty step, teleport, fly, etc, will be a huge help. I wouldn't be too worried about dumb instakills from the players. I'd be more worried about a total party wipe.
Last year I ran a campaign with 2 adult dragon encounters. One out of lair, one in. It was a party of 4 experienced level 12 players. They didn't have too much of a hard time with the one out of it's lair, but they only survived the lair encounter by the barest of margins and it was only due to some very lucky rolls towards the end of the encounter. Wiping the party was a very real possibility, as I think it should be when facing a dragon :)
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
Ancient dragons are clever, even the dumb one, or how else did they live through centuries of adventurers trying to kill them. Even in their lair, they’ll have an escape plan. A roof with a hole in the ceiling (maybe hidden by an illusion), a pool with an underground river leading out. While not cowards, they’re too smart to stay until the end of a fight they know they’re going to lose.
Players will expect them to fly, but make sure you use their other movement types, some have swim speeds, some burrow or climb which I bet the PCs will be less prepared for. Let them try targeting the ancient blue when it’s 40 feet underground, and spends a couple rounds waiting for its breath to recharge. Or when it burrows under the fighter and pops up behind the wizard to chomp on the unarmored one. And burrowing can work in multiple dimensions: down under the floor, then up and out of a wall or onto a convenient perch they prepared for just such an occasion.
I could see lots of them with kobold minions serving them, forcing the melee types to spend time positioning themselves to protect casters. Or just having the kobolds hang back shooting arrows at the cleric to force concentration saves, because I’m assuming the cleric will bless the party. A really smart one might give it’s minions a different damage type. The party will be hopped up on fire resistance when they go to fight the red, and the red knows this, so he gives his kobolds poisoned arrows, for example.
And depending on how your world works, they might talk to each other. Not as friends, necessarily, but as respected peers, like the mob bosses in The Godfather. So, when someone kills the ancient white, that would probably put the others on alert. When the next one dies, they will beef up their lair protections, and maybe start sending assassins after the party.
After effects can be cool too. The dragon was likely top dog for a large area. When it dies, who or what will try to fill the power vacuum?
Understand that 'very hard' means 'takes up 25% of daily encounter budget'. Prepared characters who can go all out can exceed those budgets by a lot. That said, my assumptions stated above (basically, a straight up brawl where the PCs can prep ahead of time) aren't all that likely.
Oh, I didn't mean 'very hard' as in easy, medium, hard, deadly. I just meant very hard as in difficult. But going on that scale, just looked it up, It looks like it would range from 13th to 16th as a 'hard' encounter. So my estimate isn't too far off. Especially having to deal with a lair. But I was going off past experiences.
Players don't really get a chance to prepare, like you said. So I don't think using the standard scale is so reliable. It's not likely they can rest much before hand with many dragons having lesser minions that serve them that they'll need to fight through. Also the affects of their lair on the surroundings is like 5 miles or something. So they'll be battling the elements as well.
Anyways, just some further thoughts. Personally I think the CR rating is pretty messed up. (not that this is so related to the OP) I guess it's fine as a reference point but to make encounters interesting you have to delve deeper than just the CR :)
That's what happens when you wear a helmet your whole life!
My house rules
lairs were actually something I had forgotten about. Although, i'll maybe only uses the in the final dungeon of this particular plot, if that.
My premise involves dragons being dominated and therefore will almost universally be outside their lairs. The domination will reduce intelligence but not by much(like -2 from normal)
prep will be very dependent on the players, at least in the earlier of the encounters I got planned
i do like the burrowing idea quite a bit, Xalthu. Thanks for that one.
resistance potions seem like a boring solution, its not off the table but i'd be more inclined to give out resistance based armours and only enough for one or two PCS so that breath weapon remains something to be avoided.
I'm planning for the first ancient dragon encounter to be bare minimum at lvl 12, I was think of starting at around 10 cause i'm gonna be throwing some nastiness at them all campaign