That's not what the "And" means in that sentence. If they were specifying that Wish cannot be used on the mind due to Mind Blank then they would use a comma instead of an and, to denote that everything listed are the conditions which Mind Blank prevent from happening to the mind. The "and" is used to list what Mind Blank prevents which are two general things; it prevents Wish spells from being used on the target, and it prevents any other spells or effects of similar power used to affect the targets mind or to gain information about the target. Notice how I used "and" there and I didn't remove or change any words, I just expanded the sentence instead of rewording it. When you reword a sentence, you risk changing the narrative, where if you expand on a sentence you're less likely to do so especially when you expand it by 6 words that are basically the same words at the end of the sentence.
If they were to clarify to what you were saying, then they would have listed it as "wish spells, spells or effects of similar power..." which would include wish spells as part of the clarification of specific to mind alteration, but the and there means these are two separate instances of what Mind Break prevents. This would basically mean the reason why to include the mention of Wish spells to begin with is to indicate how powerful the warding Mind Blank has against outside magical forces. If it is not mentioned then we can presume normal wording with Wish, just as we can presume Despel magic can work on Tiny Hut, despite the fact Tiny Hut prevents magic from passing through its barrier, it can still be affected by Despel Magic because it does not state that it cannot be despelled. This is an instance of it being stated that Wish cannot remove Mind Blank.
I disagree.
The "and" is explicitly including Wish in the list of things that can not be "used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target".
If the spell was entirely immune to Wish then that would have been made into a separate sentence.
You can have sentences that list different things that don't work or don't affect something. For example you could say something like "The things I dont eat are meat and foods or drinks with lactose or lactose byproducts." While they are both food, they are separate items on a list that don't pertain to one another except for the fact the person does not eat them. This list is worded similarly in what can't affect the spell: "The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target." "The spell even foils" is the "things I dont eat", Wish spells is the meat, "and", "spells or effects of similar power used to affect the targets mind or gain information about the target" is the "foods or drinks with lactose or lactose byproducts."
Just because they're part of the same sentence does not mean everything before the description at the end is affected, it could very well be just the item it's a part of and not the item before it. This to me just lists the spells it foils which is specifically the wish spell and other spells of similar power that specifically affect the mind. It's all about what the topic of the sentence is, which are spells that Mind Blank foils. The sentence topic isn't about what affects the mind, that's only one part.
So if I wish a mind blanked character turned into a frog would wish work? Using your example you are making mindblank a wish cancelling spell which it is not. I can wish the spell away, that isn’t reading the mind or arching it is specifically wishing the magic of the mind blank away.
Now while this is 3.5 not 5th edition, I take it that the intention of the designers in porting the spell over was NOT to change the essence of the spell seeing as how the wording and effects are so similar. Obv as a DM you can call this how you want but for me if a Player stated they wanted to wish Mind Blank away I would allow it, with the obvious chance that this would mean them losing Wish. If they wanted to use Wish to know "what is the person doing right now" I would have wish fail.
Wishing the spell away is not reading the mind of the individual, or scrying on them, or learning about them, it is simply saying I wish that spell was no longer active. Or I wish that spell had never been cast (in which cast the caster would get the spell slot back).
Now while this is 3.5 not 5th edition, I take it that the intention of the designers in porting the spell over was NOT to change the essence of the spell seeing as how the wording and effects are so similar. Obv as a DM you can call this how you want but for me if a Player stated they wanted to wish Mind Blank away I would allow it, with the obvious chance that this would mean them losing Wish. If they wanted to use Wish to know "what is the person doing right now" I would have wish fail.
Wishing the spell away is not reading the mind of the individual, or scrying on them, or learning about them, it is simply saying I wish that spell was no longer active. Or I wish that spell had never been cast (in which cast the caster would get the spell slot back).
Or the caster of Wish is moved back in time to a split second before the Mind Blank is cast ..
Or the caster of Wish if moved forward in time to the moment Mind Blank ends ..
Wish can be a tricky spell :) ... also since these are non-standard uses the wizard casting wish has to resolve the effect of stress of casting it ... which would usually be undesirable enough to discourage such a use of wish in the first place. On the other hand, wish could legitimately be used to cast dispel magic at 8th level on the target to remove the Mind Blank and any other spells on the target.
Now while this is 3.5 not 5th edition, I take it that the intention of the designers in porting the spell over was NOT to change the essence of the spell seeing as how the wording and effects are so similar. Obv as a DM you can call this how you want but for me if a Player stated they wanted to wish Mind Blank away I would allow it, with the obvious chance that this would mean them losing Wish. If they wanted to use Wish to know "what is the person doing right now" I would have wish fail.
Wishing the spell away is not reading the mind of the individual, or scrying on them, or learning about them, it is simply saying I wish that spell was no longer active. Or I wish that spell had never been cast (in which cast the caster would get the spell slot back).
Or the caster of Wish is moved back in time to a split second before the Mind Blank is cast ..
Or the caster of Wish if moved forward in time to the moment Mind Blank ends ..
Wish can be a tricky spell :) ... also since these are non-standard uses the wizard casting wish has to resolve the effect of stress of casting it ... which would usually be undesirable enough to discourage such a use of wish in the first place. On the other hand, wish could legitimately be used to cast dispel magic at 8th level on the target to remove the Mind Blank and any other spells on the target.
Fully agree the chance of losing the spell I was more trying to point out that mind blank does not cancel Out wish from affecting it in certain ways.
Here's the thing I'm caught up on is the wording of that part of the spell. Where the way the list of items that the spell foils it lists two specific instances of what it foils: wish spells, and spells that are of similar power that affect the mind. I see it as Wish doesn't fall into the same conditions as the other spells because of the fact it's specifically mentioned as a separate item in that list. As with my prior example, you can have details of a particular listed item that does not affect the rest of the list, see my meat and lactose explanation. The only factor that's the same here is the fact it's a list of things that Mind Blank foils. To me, that means the listed items don't affect the spell or the protected mind.
So if I wish a mind blanked character turned into a frog would wish work? Using your example you are making mindblank a wish cancelling spell which it is not. I can wish the spell away, that isn’t reading the mind or arching it is specifically wishing the magic of the mind blank away.
Obviously not because it's not affecting Mind Blank or the mind, just the physical body of the creature, you can change forms and still be mind blanked. A great official example of this is in Curse of Strahd.
Spoilers below btw for the Curse of Strahd adventure module so don't spoil yourself if you don't want to be: There is a mad mage that casts Mind Blank on himself regularly for protection from certain creatures of Barovia. When you first encounter him, he polymorphs from a deer into his normal form. Through out that time he's under the protection of Mind Blank for a certain number of hours.
Spoliers over: So yes, you can still cast spells against someone who is protected with Mind Blank, I just see it as you cannot wish away Mind Blank, or use any other spells that target the mind or can discern information about the target.
I kinda feel that a caster capable of 8th level spells is going to be essentially unaffected by the frightened condition anyway. Why do they want to move closer to the source of their fear? What attack rolls will they even be making? Frightened rarely makes a difference to casters throwing out spells.
I would rule that if a spell specifically tries to target the Mindblanked creature and invade their mind with terrifying images then yes, Mindblank will work and prevent it. If it's a dragon's Frightful Presence then it would not work, as that isn't trying to assault the mind: it's just scary.
But honestly, my main thought was "You have one character in a party blowing his 8th level spell slot every day to be better protected, and you want to come up with ways to get around it? At level 15+ the PCs are meant to be colossi. Let them be powerful!"
Here's the thing I'm caught up on is the wording of that part of the spell. Where the way the list of items that the spell foils it lists two specific instances of what it foils: wish spells, and spells that are of similar power that affect the mind. I see it as Wish doesn't fall into the same conditions as the other spells because of the fact it's specifically mentioned as a separate item in that list. As with my prior example, you can have details of a particular listed item that does not affect the rest of the list, see my meat and lactose explanation. The only factor that's the same here is the fact it's a list of things that Mind Blank foils. To me, that means the listed items don't affect the spell or the protected mind.
So if I wish a mind blanked character turned into a frog would wish work? Using your example you are making mindblank a wish cancelling spell which it is not. I can wish the spell away, that isn’t reading the mind or arching it is specifically wishing the magic of the mind blank away.
Obviously not because it's not affecting Mind Blank or the mind, just the physical body of the creature, you can change forms and still be mind blanked. A great official example of this is in Curse of Strahd.
Spoilers below btw for the Curse of Strahd adventure module so don't spoil yourself if you don't want to be: There is a mad mage that casts Mind Blank on himself regularly for protection from certain creatures of Barovia. When you first encounter him, he polymorphs from a deer into his normal form. Through out that time he's under the protection of Mind Blank for a certain number of hours.
Spoliers over: So yes, you can still cast spells against someone who is protected with Mind Blank, I just see it as you cannot wish away Mind Blank, or use any other spells that target the mind or can discern information about the target.
The phrasing in mind blank is the following and there are two ways to read it.
"The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target."
1) "(The spell even foils wish spells) AND (spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target.)"
2) "(The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power) used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target."
Is it two clauses joined by AND or is it two subjects joins by AND? Either works in terms of reading the spell description.
However, the context of the spell is:
"Until the spell ends, one willing creature you touch is immune to psychic damage, any effect that would sense its emotions or read its thoughts, divination spells, and the charmed condition."
The spell protects the creature from three specific effects and makes them immune to psychic damage. It doesn't make the character immune to the wish spell. However, the next sentence clarifies that the character remains immune to any effect that tries to affect its mind INCLUDING the Wish spell IF used to try to affect the characters mind.
So a creature using Wish to try to read the mind, divine the creature's location, try to charm the target would automatically fail against character protected by Mind Blank. However, there are many applications of Wish and as long as they don't attempt to affect the target's mind the Mind Blank does not come into play. For example, one common use of Wish is to cast any other spell up to 8th level. A caster could use Wish to cast a Dispel Magic spell at 8th level on the target. The spell being cast is NOT Wish. The spell being cast is Dispel Magic. This would have no problem removing any magical effects on the target up to 8th level (which would include Mind Blank unless it was upcast).
Anyway, there is potentially some confusion with reading the sentence if taken out of context but when considering what the spell does in terms of protecting the mind of the character and preventing their location from being discovered magically - it would work against these effects even if Wish was used to try to determine the location of such a creature - but would not work against any other application of Wish. (Though as always it is up to the DM how they want to run their table).
You can have sentences that list different things that don't work or don't affect something. For example you could say something like "The things I dont eat are meat and foods or drinks with lactose or lactose byproducts." While they are both food, they are separate items on a list that don't pertain to one another except for the fact the person does not eat them. This list is worded similarly in what can't affect the spell: "The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target." "The spell even foils" is the "things I dont eat", Wish spells is the meat, "and", "spells or effects of similar power used to affect the targets mind or gain information about the target" is the "foods or drinks with lactose or lactose byproducts."
Just because they're part of the same sentence does not mean everything before the description at the end is affected, it could very well be just the item it's a part of and not the item before it. This to me just lists the spells it foils which is specifically the wish spell and other spells of similar power that specifically affect the mind. It's all about what the topic of the sentence is, which are spells that Mind Blank foils. The sentence topic isn't about what affects the mind, that's only one part.
So if I wish a mind blanked character turned into a frog would wish work? Using your example you are making mindblank a wish cancelling spell which it is not. I can wish the spell away, that isn’t reading the mind or arching it is specifically wishing the magic of the mind blank away.
Ok the original 3.5 wording for the spell Mind Blank is here
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm
Now while this is 3.5 not 5th edition, I take it that the intention of the designers in porting the spell over was NOT to change the essence of the spell seeing as how the wording and effects are so similar. Obv as a DM you can call this how you want but for me if a Player stated they wanted to wish Mind Blank away I would allow it, with the obvious chance that this would mean them losing Wish. If they wanted to use Wish to know "what is the person doing right now" I would have wish fail.
Wishing the spell away is not reading the mind of the individual, or scrying on them, or learning about them, it is simply saying I wish that spell was no longer active. Or I wish that spell had never been cast (in which cast the caster would get the spell slot back).
Or the caster of Wish is moved back in time to a split second before the Mind Blank is cast ..
Or the caster of Wish if moved forward in time to the moment Mind Blank ends ..
Wish can be a tricky spell :) ... also since these are non-standard uses the wizard casting wish has to resolve the effect of stress of casting it ... which would usually be undesirable enough to discourage such a use of wish in the first place. On the other hand, wish could legitimately be used to cast dispel magic at 8th level on the target to remove the Mind Blank and any other spells on the target.
Fully agree the chance of losing the spell I was more trying to point out that mind blank does not cancel Out wish from affecting it in certain ways.
Here's the thing I'm caught up on is the wording of that part of the spell. Where the way the list of items that the spell foils it lists two specific instances of what it foils: wish spells, and spells that are of similar power that affect the mind. I see it as Wish doesn't fall into the same conditions as the other spells because of the fact it's specifically mentioned as a separate item in that list. As with my prior example, you can have details of a particular listed item that does not affect the rest of the list, see my meat and lactose explanation. The only factor that's the same here is the fact it's a list of things that Mind Blank foils. To me, that means the listed items don't affect the spell or the protected mind.
Obviously not because it's not affecting Mind Blank or the mind, just the physical body of the creature, you can change forms and still be mind blanked. A great official example of this is in Curse of Strahd.
Spoilers below btw for the Curse of Strahd adventure module so don't spoil yourself if you don't want to be:
There is a mad mage that casts Mind Blank on himself regularly for protection from certain creatures of Barovia. When you first encounter him, he polymorphs from a deer into his normal form. Through out that time he's under the protection of Mind Blank for a certain number of hours.
Spoliers over:
So yes, you can still cast spells against someone who is protected with Mind Blank, I just see it as you cannot wish away Mind Blank, or use any other spells that target the mind or can discern information about the target.
I kinda feel that a caster capable of 8th level spells is going to be essentially unaffected by the frightened condition anyway. Why do they want to move closer to the source of their fear? What attack rolls will they even be making? Frightened rarely makes a difference to casters throwing out spells.
I would rule that if a spell specifically tries to target the Mindblanked creature and invade their mind with terrifying images then yes, Mindblank will work and prevent it. If it's a dragon's Frightful Presence then it would not work, as that isn't trying to assault the mind: it's just scary.
But honestly, my main thought was "You have one character in a party blowing his 8th level spell slot every day to be better protected, and you want to come up with ways to get around it? At level 15+ the PCs are meant to be colossi. Let them be powerful!"
The phrasing in mind blank is the following and there are two ways to read it.
"The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target."
1) "(The spell even foils wish spells) AND (spells or effects of similar power used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target.)"
2) "(The spell even foils wish spells and spells or effects of similar power) used to affect the target's mind or to gain information about the target."
Is it two clauses joined by AND or is it two subjects joins by AND? Either works in terms of reading the spell description.
However, the context of the spell is:
"Until the spell ends, one willing creature you touch is immune to psychic damage, any effect that would sense its emotions or read its thoughts, divination spells, and the charmed condition."
The spell protects the creature from three specific effects and makes them immune to psychic damage. It doesn't make the character immune to the wish spell. However, the next sentence clarifies that the character remains immune to any effect that tries to affect its mind INCLUDING the Wish spell IF used to try to affect the characters mind.
So a creature using Wish to try to read the mind, divine the creature's location, try to charm the target would automatically fail against character protected by Mind Blank. However, there are many applications of Wish and as long as they don't attempt to affect the target's mind the Mind Blank does not come into play. For example, one common use of Wish is to cast any other spell up to 8th level. A caster could use Wish to cast a Dispel Magic spell at 8th level on the target. The spell being cast is NOT Wish. The spell being cast is Dispel Magic. This would have no problem removing any magical effects on the target up to 8th level (which would include Mind Blank unless it was upcast).
Anyway, there is potentially some confusion with reading the sentence if taken out of context but when considering what the spell does in terms of protecting the mind of the character and preventing their location from being discovered magically - it would work against these effects even if Wish was used to try to determine the location of such a creature - but would not work against any other application of Wish. (Though as always it is up to the DM how they want to run their table).
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