So after some serious brainstorming I've decided to bring an old Palladium campaign to 5e. A fictional continent on a earth type world, just after the Civil War. Alternate histories, a little steampunk, guns etc. Very cool, well liked by my players in the past. What I have done in the past to balance out the firearm issue is to limit magic to divine/supernatural influence only. So no wizards, no sorcerers and AT's with casting abilities are unavailable. And the biggest change, few to no magic items. I'm going to use the firearm rules straight from the DMG.
I think this balances the guns/magic pretty well, but I'm wondering without the magic item accumulation that many players seem to live for, would this hold their interest long term? I have several great story arcs, great monsters, villains, NPC's etc. I'm gonna try it. I hope it works. Advise appreciated.
There is no way to balance them against bows and crossbows in any case. A high energy impact vs. low energy impact.
But guns will nearly double the damage of any ranged character. Damage like that is usually reserved for the more squishy caster types. If a party had guns and those squishy caster types, it would truly be broken.
A lot of old guns, even at the time you’re thinking of, were super inaccurate and didn’t have a lot of range. It sounds harsh, but if the guns do like double damage (say 2d8 base for a rifle, 2d6 for a pistol) I’d suggest giving them a -5 to hit and having a short range of 30, mayyybe 60 for a rifle, outside of which they’d have disadvantage. (I’d also have the gun jam or misfire and be useless for the rest of the combat on a natural 1, but that might be too much.) They’d be more effective against low-AC, high-HP enemies, but unreliable against the opposite. That’d be my take on guns: I feel like the DMG’s are a bit too strong.
I've taken the liberty of making a table of the various bows, crossbows, and firearms in the spoiler above.
Commentary on comparing bows to civil war era firearms is in the spoiler below:
The first thing to note is the cost of firearms and bullets versus bows and arrows. At low levels, a regular character simply can't afford a firearm unless it's given to them for free. Second is rarity: If guns are uncommon in your setting, then not only would they be expensive, but it may be very difficult to find someone who sells bullets at all. Third is range: Renaissance firearms have half the range of bows, which means that they will be attacking at disadvantage beyond their first increment. Fourth is proficiency: It's up to you whether a character is actually proficient in firearms or not.
If you're aiming for post-civil war, then the most commonly used firearm was a smooth-bore muzzle loader that had an accurate firing rate of 3 per minute. (Later replaced with a rifled barrel.
Renaissance firearms will probably be pretty widespread, but "Modern" rifles will still be relatively rare.
You'll see plenty of single-action revolvers, but reloading one of those takes an action or bonus action every few shots.
Given that, the biggest issue is going to be the Revolver, with 2d8 damage. The easiest thing for this is to note that this doesn't just require a ball and black powder, but a bullet with casing, gunpowder, primer, and a machine to pack it together. Poorly made bullets also have a misfire chance that causes problems.
If your adventurers are going to be on their own for a while, they'll need to be conservative with their ammunition whereas a bowman can usually retrieve most their arrows/bolts.
If they're going to be spending a lot of time in urban areas, then it might not be such a drawback.
Something else to consider: Bows can launch alternative ammunition and are quiet.
There is no way to balance them against bows and crossbows in any case. A high energy impact vs. low energy impact.
But guns will nearly double the damage of any ranged character. Damage like that is usually reserved for the more squishy caster types. If a party had guns and those squishy caster types, it would truly be broken.
What makes you say this? Another question being, you just said that high damage spells are for casters but you aren't allowing Wizards?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
This sounds like the old Fighter v. Wizard argument, but with bullets instead of swords. I don't think the problem is so much the guns as it is the class abilities.
I mean, when you get right down to it, Artificers make very good gunners and are pretty competitive with spellcasters. Fighters / Rangers using Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter are competitive with full spellcasters, while rogues make excellent snipers. Barbarians, paladins and monks might not really fit with guns around; especially monks with their deflect missile ability.
Make some "magic weapon" guns that aren't actually magic but work the same way mechanically, pick your sourcebooks carefully*, maybe some custom feats, and you should be good to go.
* I recommend sticking with Volo's, Mordenkeinen, Xanathar's and the upcoming Tasha's books. Ignore everything else. Maybe check out the feat-based Unearthed Arcana docs for ideas for gun-based feats.
There is no way to balance them against bows and crossbows in any case. A high energy impact vs. low energy impact.
But guns will nearly double the damage of any ranged character. Damage like that is usually reserved for the more squishy caster types. If a party had guns and those squishy caster types, it would truly be broken.
What makes you say this? Another question being, you just said that high damage spells are for casters but you aren't allowing Wizards?
A modern crossbow tops out at about 450 fps, a .45 caliber gun around twice that. Plus the hydrostatic shockwave that a bullet delivers as the projectile mushrooms when it hits.
Yes normally casters would deliver the higher damaged attacks. But if guns are added everyone is capable of higher ranged damaged, so still having mages just makes things worse.
So, a Revolver will do 1d6 more points of extremely loud, non-magical damage (with unrecoverable ammo) than a comparably priced hand crossbow.
That seems fine to me. Just make magical guns appropriately higher rarity [+1 Revolver (Very Rare)]
Creatures with resistance to non-magical piercing damage will basically absorb the difference and make Firearms comparable to their medieval counterpart. Against immune creatures, firearms are useless.
Even a common (50-100gp) magical hand crossbow will be comparable to, if not better than, a revolver against many monsters.
The Heavy Armor Master feat is a straight 3 point damage reduction against non-magical weapon attacks, so as long as magical firearms are rare, then there is an easy body armor option to level the playing field.
It's really not that hard to make a high-armor ranged character: a single level of Fighter at level 1, of Cleric at any level, or (often) a single feat is enough to let pretty much anyone have AC 18, or even 20 with a Shield, regardless of class. Dealing striker damage from range with tank AC is already a "thing" that folks build for, and I don't know that it coming from a gun rather than a bow or a spell makes it any more alarming.
If you're really concerned that the party are going to abandon traditional weapons in favor of the cache of laser rifles or whatever that you handed out, the simplest balancing factor to level the 3d6 etc. advanced firearms damage against lower base damage bows is.... just don't allow Dexterity to apply as a static modifier to damage with guns, only on to-hit rolls. Possibly, also don't allow class features and other spells that interact with ranged weapon attack hits to work with the gun. The gun is a great equalizer, letting unskilled combatants do tremendous damage (if they hit), but the finesse/magic/whatever that classes learn to apply to their traditional weaponry doesn't translate to the laser beam/bullet/whatever. In addition to "ranged weapon attacks" (which normally apply +Dex to damage), and "ranged spell attacks" (which typically don't apply +CastingStat to damage, absent a special feature), introduce "ranged firearm attacks" as a wholly different category that doesn't allow normal "ranged weapon attack" abilities to translate.
The power of guns is that they're easy, bows and the like require considerably more training to be competent, magic even more so.
Modern guns might be that way, but I can guarantee that you will certainly not be able to fire a flintlock pistol or a musket with serious training...
It takes training, but when you're talking conscripted soldiers it's the difference of a few months training for muskets versus requiring people to have weekly training sessions their whole lives to have competent archers.
There is no way to balance them against bows and crossbows in any case. A high energy impact vs. low energy impact.
But guns will nearly double the damage of any ranged character. Damage like that is usually reserved for the more squishy caster types. If a party had guns and those squishy caster types, it would truly be broken.
What makes you say this? Another question being, you just said that high damage spells are for casters but you aren't allowing Wizards?
A modern crossbow tops out at about 450 fps, a .45 caliber gun around twice that. Plus the hydrostatic shockwave that a bullet delivers as the projectile mushrooms when it hits.
Yes normally casters would deliver the higher damaged attacks. But if guns are added everyone is capable of higher ranged damaged, so still having mages just makes things worse.
All of this is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the fps of a modern crossbow is nor whether or not a bullet causes hydrostatic effects.
All that matters in game terms is how much damage they do, how far they shoot and how often you can take a shot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
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So after some serious brainstorming I've decided to bring an old Palladium campaign to 5e. A fictional continent on a earth type world, just after the Civil War. Alternate histories, a little steampunk, guns etc. Very cool, well liked by my players in the past. What I have done in the past to balance out the firearm issue is to limit magic to divine/supernatural influence only. So no wizards, no sorcerers and AT's with casting abilities are unavailable. And the biggest change, few to no magic items. I'm going to use the firearm rules straight from the DMG.
I think this balances the guns/magic pretty well, but I'm wondering without the magic item accumulation that many players seem to live for, would this hold their interest long term? I have several great story arcs, great monsters, villains, NPC's etc. I'm gonna try it. I hope it works. Advise appreciated.
Why do you feel guns need to be balanced against magic? Usually the issue is balancing them against bows and crossbows.
There is no way to balance them against bows and crossbows in any case. A high energy impact vs. low energy impact.
But guns will nearly double the damage of any ranged character. Damage like that is usually reserved for the more squishy caster types. If a party had guns and those squishy caster types, it would truly be broken.
A lot of old guns, even at the time you’re thinking of, were super inaccurate and didn’t have a lot of range. It sounds harsh, but if the guns do like double damage (say 2d8 base for a rifle, 2d6 for a pistol) I’d suggest giving them a -5 to hit and having a short range of 30, mayyybe 60 for a rifle, outside of which they’d have disadvantage. (I’d also have the gun jam or misfire and be useless for the rest of the combat on a natural 1, but that might be too much.) They’d be more effective against low-AC, high-HP enemies, but unreliable against the opposite. That’d be my take on guns: I feel like the DMG’s are a bit too strong.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Crossbow, Light
Crossbow, Heavy
Bolts (20) (1gp)
1d8 piercing
1d10 piercing
Ammunition (range 80/320), loading, two-handed
Ammunition (range 100/400), heavy, loading, two-handed
Longbow
Arrows (20) (1gp)
1d8 piercing
Ammunition (range 150/600), heavy, two-handed
Musket (500gp)
Bullets(10) (3gp)
1d12 piercing
Ammunition (range 40/120), loading, two-handed
Revolver
Rifle, Hunting
Rifle, Automatic
Shotgun
Bullets(10) (???gp)
2d8 piercing
2d10 piercing
2d8 piercing
2d8 piercing
Ammunition (range 40/120), reload (6 shots)
Ammunition (range 80/240), reload (5 shots), two-handed
Ammunition (range 80/240), burst fire, reload (30 shots), two-handed
Ammunition (range 30/90), reload (2 shots), two-handed
Antimatter rifle
Laser rifle
Energy cell (???gp)
6d8 necrotic
3d8 radiant
Ammunition (range 120/360), reload (2 shots), two-handed
Ammunition (range 100/300), reload (30 shots), two-handed
I've taken the liberty of making a table of the various bows, crossbows, and firearms in the spoiler above.
Commentary on comparing bows to civil war era firearms is in the spoiler below:
The first thing to note is the cost of firearms and bullets versus bows and arrows. At low levels, a regular character simply can't afford a firearm unless it's given to them for free.
Second is rarity: If guns are uncommon in your setting, then not only would they be expensive, but it may be very difficult to find someone who sells bullets at all.
Third is range: Renaissance firearms have half the range of bows, which means that they will be attacking at disadvantage beyond their first increment.
Fourth is proficiency: It's up to you whether a character is actually proficient in firearms or not.
If you're aiming for post-civil war, then the most commonly used firearm was a smooth-bore muzzle loader that had an accurate firing rate of 3 per minute. (Later replaced with a rifled barrel.
Renaissance firearms will probably be pretty widespread, but "Modern" rifles will still be relatively rare.
You'll see plenty of single-action revolvers, but reloading one of those takes an action or bonus action every few shots.
Given that, the biggest issue is going to be the Revolver, with 2d8 damage. The easiest thing for this is to note that this doesn't just require a ball and black powder, but a bullet with casing, gunpowder, primer, and a machine to pack it together. Poorly made bullets also have a misfire chance that causes problems.
If your adventurers are going to be on their own for a while, they'll need to be conservative with their ammunition whereas a bowman can usually retrieve most their arrows/bolts.
If they're going to be spending a lot of time in urban areas, then it might not be such a drawback.
Something else to consider: Bows can launch alternative ammunition and are quiet.
Explosive, tracking, poison, grappling, splitting, flaming, signal, etc...
A revolver can do more damage within range, but a bowman is more versatile and stealthy.
TL;DR
In a world of magic, firearms are only as effective as you let them be. Let the world adapt.
What makes you say this? Another question being, you just said that high damage spells are for casters but you aren't allowing Wizards?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
This sounds like the old Fighter v. Wizard argument, but with bullets instead of swords. I don't think the problem is so much the guns as it is the class abilities.
I mean, when you get right down to it, Artificers make very good gunners and are pretty competitive with spellcasters. Fighters / Rangers using Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter are competitive with full spellcasters, while rogues make excellent snipers. Barbarians, paladins and monks might not really fit with guns around; especially monks with their deflect missile ability.
Make some "magic weapon" guns that aren't actually magic but work the same way mechanically, pick your sourcebooks carefully*, maybe some custom feats, and you should be good to go.
* I recommend sticking with Volo's, Mordenkeinen, Xanathar's and the upcoming Tasha's books. Ignore everything else. Maybe check out the feat-based Unearthed Arcana docs for ideas for gun-based feats.
The power of guns is that they're easy, bows and the like require considerably more training to be competent, magic even more so.
A modern crossbow tops out at about 450 fps, a .45 caliber gun around twice that. Plus the hydrostatic shockwave that a bullet delivers as the projectile mushrooms when it hits.
Yes normally casters would deliver the higher damaged attacks. But if guns are added everyone is capable of higher ranged damaged, so still having mages just makes things worse.
Ok, let's break this down into easier terms:
Revolver (501 - 5000gp) - 2d8 (9 avg) non-magical piercing damage
+2 Crossbow, hand (501 - 5000gp) - 1d6+2 (5.5 avg) magical piercing damage
So, a Revolver will do 1d6 more points of extremely loud, non-magical damage (with unrecoverable ammo) than a comparably priced hand crossbow.
That seems fine to me. Just make magical guns appropriately higher rarity [+1 Revolver (Very Rare)]
Creatures with resistance to non-magical piercing damage will basically absorb the difference and make Firearms comparable to their medieval counterpart. Against immune creatures, firearms are useless.
Even a common (50-100gp) magical hand crossbow will be comparable to, if not better than, a revolver against many monsters.
Re: Non-Magical Weapon Damage
The Heavy Armor Master feat is a straight 3 point damage reduction against non-magical weapon attacks, so as long as magical firearms are rare, then there is an easy body armor option to level the playing field.
It's really not that hard to make a high-armor ranged character: a single level of Fighter at level 1, of Cleric at any level, or (often) a single feat is enough to let pretty much anyone have AC 18, or even 20 with a Shield, regardless of class. Dealing striker damage from range with tank AC is already a "thing" that folks build for, and I don't know that it coming from a gun rather than a bow or a spell makes it any more alarming.
If you're really concerned that the party are going to abandon traditional weapons in favor of the cache of laser rifles or whatever that you handed out, the simplest balancing factor to level the 3d6 etc. advanced firearms damage against lower base damage bows is.... just don't allow Dexterity to apply as a static modifier to damage with guns, only on to-hit rolls. Possibly, also don't allow class features and other spells that interact with ranged weapon attack hits to work with the gun. The gun is a great equalizer, letting unskilled combatants do tremendous damage (if they hit), but the finesse/magic/whatever that classes learn to apply to their traditional weaponry doesn't translate to the laser beam/bullet/whatever. In addition to "ranged weapon attacks" (which normally apply +Dex to damage), and "ranged spell attacks" (which typically don't apply +CastingStat to damage, absent a special feature), introduce "ranged firearm attacks" as a wholly different category that doesn't allow normal "ranged weapon attack" abilities to translate.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
It takes training, but when you're talking conscripted soldiers it's the difference of a few months training for muskets versus requiring people to have weekly training sessions their whole lives to have competent archers.
Good thoughts folks. Thanks very much.
All of this is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the fps of a modern crossbow is nor whether or not a bullet causes hydrostatic effects.
All that matters in game terms is how much damage they do, how far they shoot and how often you can take a shot.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale