No one was trying to say that you were a bad DM just that some of us felt your instincts were leading you to make a bad choice that would effect both your game and your players in a negative way.
we didn’t see the subclass as over powered and in turn your reasoning for the nerfs were about the player and how they would use it. Remember you titled the thread “should I...” so we responded with advice and our reasons. Honestly I think one of the problem’s in asking a bunch of DM’s question is 9/10 “Toxic player” is the go to answer. I have seen threads not even hint at player misread go that way.
“hey guys I am struggling with darkvision and my player that’s a bit more experienced than me just did this is it right?“
”They took advantage of you , toxic player, toxic player, session zero, just have fun, Matthew Colville video.....something something....toxic player”
I can see you could take my comments as critical of you directly, my intention was to be critical of the approach. You kept framing the problem around how difficult it was to beat certain abilities, how to beat the player, so even before the game started you were competing with the player. We don’t agree on much as DM’s but I think most of us would say that D&D is at its best when DM & Player play cooperatively.
I am glad you have a resolution but maybe do one thing, ask your player would they still be picking the forge Druid if you had not imposed restrictions and semi gutted the class features.
If they say yes, then it’s all good, but be prepared to think objectively about the situation if they say no.
No one was trying to say that you were a bad DM just that some of us felt your instincts were leading you to make a bad choice that would effect both your game and your players in a negative way.operatively.
This ^
At least for me. I'm just trying to share my personal experience with this kind of situation and explain my solutions. I've seen what happens on both sides of the DM screen when a problem or two like this crop up.
I told him why I was scared of allowing the subclass as it is right now comparing the archer ability to his heavy reliance on the Crossbow Expert Feat in the last campaign, where that feat basically gave him a third attack. In that he could recognise and accept my fears of this subclass.
Thanks very much for the follow up since it is always nice to hear how things end.
However, it sounds more to me that as a DM you have an issue with certain feats. Polearm master gives an extra bonus action attack. Crossbow expert also gives a bonus action attack. These feats are mainstays of certain types of characters. The other feats that can provide a particular boost in fighting are Great Weapon Master (especially when combined with PAM) or Sharpshooter (when combined with Crossbow expert, the archery fighting style and a hand crossbow).
Characters like this have a third attack (after level 5 and extra attack) and can put up big numbers when doing damage (though the -5 to hit really does moderate the +10 damage of these feats against typical level appropriate ACs). They have big numbers when they hit but miss much more often but the bias of seeing the large numbers especially on a turn when all the attacks hit really leaves the impression that these combinations of feats are overpowered (even if they aren't necessarily).
In the case of the stars druid, the situation is a bit different. They have to expend a wild shape to obtain a bonus action attack option. Druids also do not have the extra attack ability nor is the extra ranged attack compatible with sharpshooter since it isn't a ranged weapon attack. Just having a bonus action attack option by itself is not overpowered since there are many classes with such abilities. Monks (with 1 ki they can have 2 attacks as a bonus action), war cleric (up to wis modifier/day) and even the general 2 weapon fighting allows for a bonus action attack that is available to anyone - there are lots more including the cleric spell spiritual weapon.
In comparison to spiritual weapon, at the lowest level it is comparable - the cost is a wild shape vs a spell slot. However, the real power in spiritual weapon is that it can be upcast increasing the damage of the weapon. This is not an option available to the druid ability. It doesn't scale. On the other hand, the forge cleric chosen by the character will be able to pop out spiritual weapon for bonus action attacks and depending on what sources you use may be able to pick up the booming blade cantrip through the magic initiate feat to augment the times when they do make melee attacks. Whether spiritual weapon turns out to be a powerful feature or not will often depend on how many combat encounters you usually play at your table. If you usually only have a couple of combat encounters then the cleric could potentially have spiritual weapon in every one after they reach 3rd level. How is this different from a stars druid? On the other hand if you run to longer adventuring days then at level 3 the stars druid can sustain the bonus action attack through more encounters if they get a short rest.
BUT! :) ... the stars druid bonus action attack has competition. If I was a druid and cast spike growth or more likely conjure animals, I am far more likely to choose the form giving a bonus to concentration saving throws. This honestly contributes nothing to the balance of the situation assuming the druid was likely to try to stay in the back and avoid melee anyway. It provides some insurance that the spell doesn't drop due to taking damage but if the druid is positioning to minimize damage anyway then it has little impact. If the druid decides to have a bonus action attack instead then they have a much greater chance of dropping concentration on an important spell if they are hit.
Overall, I think the stars druid features are useful and quite cool but not game breaking especially in comparison to the four combat feats mentioned above that you seem to be using as a reference point - the druid abilities aren't in the same class. (Though the guiding bolt usage proficiency times/day is pretty cool and amounts to a few extra first level spell slots with a single purpose). However, each only does 10 points of damage on average so an extra 20 points of damage/day in levels 1-4 really isn't significant - just flavorful (unless your table has very few combats where a possible 20 hit points of damage (assuming it hits) would make a significant difference).
If Fighter with Eldritch blast(magic initiate)does similar damage or more then the class isn't over tuned. That's 2D10 at level 2. 4D10 at level 5 with 0 cost. If you action surge that's 8D10 at level 5.
Druid can do 1 cantrip/ 1spell and 1D8 bonus action....... this also spends one of the two charges you have.
If life domain cleric with good berry (magic initiate) 40 Hp per spell slot. Then you're character isn't over tuned.
If anything have the experienced player teach the others how to be more effective in combat.
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No one was trying to say that you were a bad DM just that some of us felt your instincts were leading you to make a bad choice that would effect both your game and your players in a negative way.
we didn’t see the subclass as over powered and in turn your reasoning for the nerfs were about the player and how they would use it. Remember you titled the thread “should I...” so we responded with advice and our reasons. Honestly I think one of the problem’s in asking a bunch of DM’s question is 9/10 “Toxic player” is the go to answer. I have seen threads not even hint at player misread go that way.
“hey guys I am struggling with darkvision and my player that’s a bit more experienced than me just did this is it right?“
”They took advantage of you , toxic player, toxic player, session zero, just have fun, Matthew Colville video.....something something....toxic player”
I can see you could take my comments as critical of you directly, my intention was to be critical of the approach. You kept framing the problem around how difficult it was to beat certain abilities, how to beat the player, so even before the game started you were competing with the player. We don’t agree on much as DM’s but I think most of us would say that D&D is at its best when DM & Player play cooperatively.
I am glad you have a resolution but maybe do one thing, ask your player would they still be picking the forge Druid if you had not imposed restrictions and semi gutted the class features.
If they say yes, then it’s all good, but be prepared to think objectively about the situation if they say no.
This ^
At least for me. I'm just trying to share my personal experience with this kind of situation and explain my solutions. I've seen what happens on both sides of the DM screen when a problem or two like this crop up.
Thanks very much for the follow up since it is always nice to hear how things end.
However, it sounds more to me that as a DM you have an issue with certain feats. Polearm master gives an extra bonus action attack. Crossbow expert also gives a bonus action attack. These feats are mainstays of certain types of characters. The other feats that can provide a particular boost in fighting are Great Weapon Master (especially when combined with PAM) or Sharpshooter (when combined with Crossbow expert, the archery fighting style and a hand crossbow).
Characters like this have a third attack (after level 5 and extra attack) and can put up big numbers when doing damage (though the -5 to hit really does moderate the +10 damage of these feats against typical level appropriate ACs). They have big numbers when they hit but miss much more often but the bias of seeing the large numbers especially on a turn when all the attacks hit really leaves the impression that these combinations of feats are overpowered (even if they aren't necessarily).
In the case of the stars druid, the situation is a bit different. They have to expend a wild shape to obtain a bonus action attack option. Druids also do not have the extra attack ability nor is the extra ranged attack compatible with sharpshooter since it isn't a ranged weapon attack. Just having a bonus action attack option by itself is not overpowered since there are many classes with such abilities. Monks (with 1 ki they can have 2 attacks as a bonus action), war cleric (up to wis modifier/day) and even the general 2 weapon fighting allows for a bonus action attack that is available to anyone - there are lots more including the cleric spell spiritual weapon.
In comparison to spiritual weapon, at the lowest level it is comparable - the cost is a wild shape vs a spell slot. However, the real power in spiritual weapon is that it can be upcast increasing the damage of the weapon. This is not an option available to the druid ability. It doesn't scale. On the other hand, the forge cleric chosen by the character will be able to pop out spiritual weapon for bonus action attacks and depending on what sources you use may be able to pick up the booming blade cantrip through the magic initiate feat to augment the times when they do make melee attacks. Whether spiritual weapon turns out to be a powerful feature or not will often depend on how many combat encounters you usually play at your table. If you usually only have a couple of combat encounters then the cleric could potentially have spiritual weapon in every one after they reach 3rd level. How is this different from a stars druid? On the other hand if you run to longer adventuring days then at level 3 the stars druid can sustain the bonus action attack through more encounters if they get a short rest.
BUT! :) ... the stars druid bonus action attack has competition. If I was a druid and cast spike growth or more likely conjure animals, I am far more likely to choose the form giving a bonus to concentration saving throws. This honestly contributes nothing to the balance of the situation assuming the druid was likely to try to stay in the back and avoid melee anyway. It provides some insurance that the spell doesn't drop due to taking damage but if the druid is positioning to minimize damage anyway then it has little impact. If the druid decides to have a bonus action attack instead then they have a much greater chance of dropping concentration on an important spell if they are hit.
Overall, I think the stars druid features are useful and quite cool but not game breaking especially in comparison to the four combat feats mentioned above that you seem to be using as a reference point - the druid abilities aren't in the same class. (Though the guiding bolt usage proficiency times/day is pretty cool and amounts to a few extra first level spell slots with a single purpose). However, each only does 10 points of damage on average so an extra 20 points of damage/day in levels 1-4 really isn't significant - just flavorful (unless your table has very few combats where a possible 20 hit points of damage (assuming it hits) would make a significant difference).
If Fighter with Eldritch blast(magic initiate)does similar damage or more then the class isn't over tuned. That's 2D10 at level 2. 4D10 at level 5 with 0 cost. If you action surge that's 8D10 at level 5.
Druid can do 1 cantrip/ 1spell and 1D8 bonus action....... this also spends one of the two charges you have.
If life domain cleric with good berry (magic initiate) 40 Hp per spell slot. Then you're character isn't over tuned.
If anything have the experienced player teach the others how to be more effective in combat.