It shouldn't be allowed for Chaos Bolt because there is no valid justification that anyone has presented, to explain why if you allowed it for Chaos Bolt, it wouldn't be allowed for every other multi-target spell in the game. Memnosyne's excellent analysis notwithstanding, I would rule, as a DM, that there is no basis for giving Chaos Bolt, as a spell, "special treatment," and therefore, either all similar spells would have to be Twinnable, or none would be, the none including Chaos Bolt. I do not like "special rules for just this case" and try to avoid them at my (virtual) table.
So what you're saying is if you allow Chaos bolt to be twinned you'd have to allow every other spell to be twinned?
If that's what you are saying then my response is simply, no you don't.
If you want justifications: -It's a sorc only spell using sorc only class feature. -No other spell using the same jump mechanic, so it is by definition already a special case -It doesn't have any AoE component and even when Twinned and empowered it's avg. damage output isn't anything special. Unless I'm missing some way it can be exploited.
-It's a sorc only spell using sorc only class feature.
Not a Sorc only spell - you can get access to it other ways. Also using a "sorc only class feautre" should not be justification, when that same feature is being prevented from being applies to other spells currently disallowed by Twin Spell
No other spell using the same jump mechanic, so it is by definition already a special case
Yeah, that's what makes the SPELL unique, but that doesn't give cause for breaking RAW, Acid splash is the only cantrip that can damage more than one target! So since it is a unique cantrip should we allow it to have certain extra things currently not allowed?
-It doesn't have any AoE component and even when Twinned and empowered it's avg. damage output isn't anything special. Unless I'm missing some way it can be exploited.
Sure it doesnt have an AOE tag, but it DOES have the chance it "AOE" the board. Or better put it CAN affect more than one person, the exact thing twin spell doesn't want. GFB can possibly not affect 2 people, but it also shouldn't be twinned. The above cantrip can choose to only affect one person, so why don't we let me twin that one AND also allow it's area of affect. Why should Chaos bolt which might affect 2, 3, 4, or 5 people on randomness, be the only spell a Sorc can break RAW for?
Just because you don't view something as OP or exploitable is not a reason to allow something. Plenty of things seem harmless until they aren't
So what you're saying is if you allow Chaos bolt to be twinned you'd have to allow every other spell to be twinned?
No.
I am saying that IF you allow Chaos Bolt as the only multi-target spell to be Twinned, and not other multi-target spells, then as a DM, it is good practice to have a good, solid reason that can be logically defended, so that when players ask why the other spells can't do it, your answer isn't "just cuz."
Also, you asked what's our call -- it's in the title of the thread. Nearly all of us are saying that our call is no, we would not allow it. You didn't permit us to say we wouldn't allow it because of RAW, implying we should have some other reason in addition to RAW to make our call. We gave you other reasons (mine is logical consistency; others have other reasons why). You refuse to accept them. At this point you may want to just close the thread since all you're doing is telling us that our call is wrong, after asking us what is our call.
Your justifications do not work for me, personally, which I will explain below, but this is, again, MY CALL -- which is what you asked for. I'm going to RP a little bit now and pretend that you are a player trying to get me to allow this in my game, and how I would respond while saying, no, I will not allow it in my game.
-It's a sorc only spell using sorc only class feature.
This is not a reason to allow the spell to ignore spellcasting rules. Quicken is also a "sorc-only class feature" which allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action. That does not allow Sorcerers to ignore the rule that says you can't cast another spell on the same turn "other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action." Furthermore, the writers explicitly wrote, in this explicitly sorcerer-only class feature of Metamagic called "Twinning", that multi-target spells are out. ALL of them. To assert that Chaos Bolt should not be included is to argue that the writers didn't consider their own spells when writing that line. If they had wanted to except Chaos Bolt, they could have done it. They did not. Therefore, since they knew both Chaos Bolt and Twinning existed, yet in the text of both the spell and the MM feat, neither mentions the other as an exception, "only sorcs can do it" is not a sufficient justification.
-No other spell using the same jump mechanic, so it is by definition already a special case
As shown above, lots of spells have unique or unusual mechanics. Unless the text of the spell with the unique or special mechanic also says it is an exception to the rest of the rules, all rules for spells continue to apply to all spells.
-It doesn't have any AoE component and even when Twinned and empowered it's avg. damage output isn't anything special. Unless I'm missing some way it can be exploited.
AOE has nothing to do with Twinning. It's about whether you can hit more than one target with the spell. I don't know why you keep bringing up AOE.... Yes the spell I used that can hit multi targets was an AOE (fireball) but that's really irrelevant to the ruling. Since Twinning doesn't say anything about AOE, "It's not an AOE" is not a valid argument in favor of twinning CB.
Consequently, based on all the stuff you have written, as a DM, MY CALL, is no, you cannot twin CB.
As a note, my sorcerer player has had Twinning and used to use Chaos Bolt (though he switched to Chromatic Orb, possibly because CB can't be twinned, I dunno). During the time when he had both, he never once, EVER, asked to Twin CB.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
So what you're saying is if you allow Chaos bolt to be twinned you'd have to allow every other spell to be twinned?
1.No.
I am saying that IF you allow Chaos Bolt as the only multi-target spell to be Twinned, and not other multi-target spells, then as a DM, it is good practice to have a good, solid reason that can be logically defended, so that when players ask why the other spells can't do it, your answer isn't "just cuz."
Also, you asked what's our call -- it's in the title of the thread. Nearly all of us are saying that our call is no, we would not allow it. You didn't permit us to say we wouldn't allow it because of RAW, implying we should have some other reason in addition to RAW to make our call. We gave you other reasons (mine is logical consistency; others have other reasons why). You refuse to accept them. At this point you may want to just close the thread since all you're doing is telling us that our call is wrong, after asking us what is our call.
Your justifications do not work for me, personally, which I will explain below, but this is, again, MY CALL -- which is what you asked for. I'm going to RP a little bit now and pretend that you are a player trying to get me to allow this in my game, and how I would respond while saying, no, I will not allow it in my game.
-It's a sorc only spell using sorc only class feature.
2This is not a reason to allow the spell to ignore spellcasting rules. Quicken is also a "sorc-only class feature" which allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action. That does not allow Sorcerers to ignore the rule that says you can't cast another spell on the same turn "other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action." Furthermore, the writers explicitly wrote, in this explicitly sorcerer-only class feature of Metamagic called "Twinning", that multi-target spells are out. ALL of them. To assert that Chaos Bolt should not be included is to argue that the writers didn't consider their own spells when writing that line. If they had wanted to except Chaos Bolt, they could have done it. They did not. Therefore, since they knew both Chaos Bolt and Twinning existed, yet in the text of both the spell and the MM feat, neither mentions the other as an exception, "only sorcs can do it" is not a sufficient justification.
-No other spell using the same jump mechanic, so it is by definition already a special case
2As shown above, lots of spells have unique or unusual mechanics. Unless the text of the spell with the unique or special mechanic also says it is an exception to the rest of the rules, all rules for spells continue to apply to all spells.
-It doesn't have any AoE component and even when Twinned and empowered it's avg. damage output isn't anything special. Unless I'm missing some way it can be exploited.
4 AOE has nothing to do with Twinning. It's about whether you can hit more than one target with the spell. I don't know why you keep bringing up AOE.... Yes the spell I used that can hit multi targets was an AOE (fireball) but that's really irrelevant to the ruling. Since Twinning doesn't say anything about AOE, "It's not an AOE" is not a valid argument in favor of twinning CB.
Consequently, based on all the stuff you have written, as a DM, MY CALL, is no, you cannot twin CB.
As a note, my sorcerer player has had Twinning and used to use Chaos Bolt (though he switched to Chromatic Orb, possibly because CB can't be twinned, I dunno). During the time when he had both, he never once, EVER, asked to Twin CB.
1 It's also good practice as a DM to try to find ways to say yes. I guess this is a matter of personal preference but you seem to be saying that no is you default position, If something isn't detrimental to the game in any way then why would you say no?
I get what you are saying about having consistency with rules but, this rule was obviously put in to keep damage from getting out of hand and even when twinned this spell is in line with other level 1 spells. If you want it to be consistent just change it to no spells that affect more than one target at the same time.
Yeah, I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't allow it, most because of RAW, others because of reasons I don't find compelling.
2 What I was trying to say here is that this is just bad class design. You have the class list specific spell that doesn't work with the class specific mechanics. The fact that it can't be twinned, the fact that twin is one of the best metas, along with the limited spells know makes taking it a bad choice. Yes it can be empowered for and extra chance at a jump but why would you do that when you could just twin another spell and have it automatically hit a 2nd target? The reason I'd consider allowing it is because I'd want to let a player use a class spell without feeling like they are willingly doing things that make they character weaker. The fact that choas bolt is can't be twinned is probably why you sorc player stopped using it. So why take the option of using a unique spell away if it has no negative impact on the game?
And yeah, I'd say it's a fact that the writers don't always consider all things when they write the spells. In fact I know they didn't with twin spell specifically because they added errata that had the more than one target clause after the wording for twinned spell had already been out for a while. It's pretty obvious reason they did this was to keep it from being exploited to do too much damage, and even twinned chaos bolt doesn't do amazing damage because its avg. damage when factoring in jump chance is on par with other lv 1 spell (that usually also have an addition feature other than damage like being able to choose damage type)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So what you're saying is if you allow Chaos bolt to be twinned you'd have to allow every other spell to be twinned?
If that's what you are saying then my response is simply, no you don't.
If you want justifications:
-It's a sorc only spell using sorc only class feature.
-No other spell using the same jump mechanic, so it is by definition already a special case
-It doesn't have any AoE component and even when Twinned and empowered it's avg. damage output isn't anything special. Unless I'm missing some way it can be exploited.
Not a Sorc only spell - you can get access to it other ways. Also using a "sorc only class feautre" should not be justification, when that same feature is being prevented from being applies to other spells currently disallowed by Twin Spell
Yeah, that's what makes the SPELL unique, but that doesn't give cause for breaking RAW, Acid splash is the only cantrip that can damage more than one target! So since it is a unique cantrip should we allow it to have certain extra things currently not allowed?
Sure it doesnt have an AOE tag, but it DOES have the chance it "AOE" the board. Or better put it CAN affect more than one person, the exact thing twin spell doesn't want. GFB can possibly not affect 2 people, but it also shouldn't be twinned. The above cantrip can choose to only affect one person, so why don't we let me twin that one AND also allow it's area of affect. Why should Chaos bolt which might affect 2, 3, 4, or 5 people on randomness, be the only spell a Sorc can break RAW for?
Just because you don't view something as OP or exploitable is not a reason to allow something. Plenty of things seem harmless until they aren't
No.
I am saying that IF you allow Chaos Bolt as the only multi-target spell to be Twinned, and not other multi-target spells, then as a DM, it is good practice to have a good, solid reason that can be logically defended, so that when players ask why the other spells can't do it, your answer isn't "just cuz."
Also, you asked what's our call -- it's in the title of the thread. Nearly all of us are saying that our call is no, we would not allow it. You didn't permit us to say we wouldn't allow it because of RAW, implying we should have some other reason in addition to RAW to make our call. We gave you other reasons (mine is logical consistency; others have other reasons why). You refuse to accept them. At this point you may want to just close the thread since all you're doing is telling us that our call is wrong, after asking us what is our call.
Your justifications do not work for me, personally, which I will explain below, but this is, again, MY CALL -- which is what you asked for. I'm going to RP a little bit now and pretend that you are a player trying to get me to allow this in my game, and how I would respond while saying, no, I will not allow it in my game.
This is not a reason to allow the spell to ignore spellcasting rules. Quicken is also a "sorc-only class feature" which allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action. That does not allow Sorcerers to ignore the rule that says you can't cast another spell on the same turn "other than a cantrip with a casting time of one action." Furthermore, the writers explicitly wrote, in this explicitly sorcerer-only class feature of Metamagic called "Twinning", that multi-target spells are out. ALL of them. To assert that Chaos Bolt should not be included is to argue that the writers didn't consider their own spells when writing that line. If they had wanted to except Chaos Bolt, they could have done it. They did not. Therefore, since they knew both Chaos Bolt and Twinning existed, yet in the text of both the spell and the MM feat, neither mentions the other as an exception, "only sorcs can do it" is not a sufficient justification.
As shown above, lots of spells have unique or unusual mechanics. Unless the text of the spell with the unique or special mechanic also says it is an exception to the rest of the rules, all rules for spells continue to apply to all spells.
AOE has nothing to do with Twinning. It's about whether you can hit more than one target with the spell. I don't know why you keep bringing up AOE.... Yes the spell I used that can hit multi targets was an AOE (fireball) but that's really irrelevant to the ruling. Since Twinning doesn't say anything about AOE, "It's not an AOE" is not a valid argument in favor of twinning CB.
Consequently, based on all the stuff you have written, as a DM, MY CALL, is no, you cannot twin CB.
As a note, my sorcerer player has had Twinning and used to use Chaos Bolt (though he switched to Chromatic Orb, possibly because CB can't be twinned, I dunno). During the time when he had both, he never once, EVER, asked to Twin CB.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
1 It's also good practice as a DM to try to find ways to say yes. I guess this is a matter of personal preference but you seem to be saying that no is you default position, If something isn't detrimental to the game in any way then why would you say no?
I get what you are saying about having consistency with rules but, this rule was obviously put in to keep damage from getting out of hand and even when twinned this spell is in line with other level 1 spells. If you want it to be consistent just change it to no spells that affect more than one target at the same time.
Yeah, I see a lot of people saying they wouldn't allow it, most because of RAW, others because of reasons I don't find compelling.
2 What I was trying to say here is that this is just bad class design.
You have the class list specific spell that doesn't work with the class specific mechanics. The fact that it can't be twinned, the fact that twin is one of the best metas, along with the limited spells know makes taking it a bad choice. Yes it can be empowered for and extra chance at a jump but why would you do that when you could just twin another spell and have it automatically hit a 2nd target?
The reason I'd consider allowing it is because I'd want to let a player use a class spell without feeling like they are willingly doing things that make they character weaker.
The fact that choas bolt is can't be twinned is probably why you sorc player stopped using it. So why take the option of using a unique spell away if it has no negative impact on the game?
And yeah, I'd say it's a fact that the writers don't always consider all things when they write the spells. In fact I know they didn't with twin spell specifically because they added errata that had the more than one target clause after the wording for twinned spell had already been out for a while. It's pretty obvious reason they did this was to keep it from being exploited to do too much damage, and even twinned chaos bolt doesn't do amazing damage because its avg. damage when factoring in jump chance is on par with other lv 1 spell (that usually also have an addition feature other than damage like being able to choose damage type)