The spell Steel Wind Strike doesn't make you move in any target's space when attacking them though, as written you instaneously vanish and make a melee spell attack against up to five creatures you can see within 30 feet of you at the instant of casting the spell, and then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.
This is an interesting one although I'm a little surprised that this thread is so long. Admittedly I have not read the whole thing but as for the question in the OP, in my opinion the combo works and the extra damage applies.
There are two things that support this: First, the spell describes making melee attacks which, by definition, occur within your reach.
Melee Attacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attack allows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon . . . A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Second, the only place that I could find a definition for what happens when you teleport appears within the Teleport spell:
This spell instantly transports you . . . to a destination you select
Note that it does not say something like ceasing to exist and then re-existing in a new location. It says that you are "transported". Admittedly it's difficult to reconcile this with it happening "instantly", but the implication is that when you teleport you (your energy? your essence? you in some form that allows you to pass through solid objects?) are moved to the new location.
If you are moved when you teleport this also means that you don't expend movement to do so (forced movement doesn't count). This spell can be executed such that you are moved all around within this 30 foot area in order to be within 5 feet of each target at some point along the way and ending that journey next to one of them, all without requiring any movement to do it.
If you are next to each target when making all of these melee attacks then the extra damage from the other spell would apply to all of the hits.
RAW/RAI are very different here, RAW doesn’t consider flavour text and all that, and in RAW Spirit Shroud only affects the enemies within 10ft, the caster disappears, the attacks are made, and the caster finishes the teleport.
RAI, SWS is thematically a series of very quick attacks, so quick that it is literally instantaneous and you cannot be seen, so I see this as each of those attacks would be made while within 5ft (melee) and so SS should apply.
I agree Steel Wind Strike design intent don't align with rules written RAI vs RAW when reading Dev's opinion that the spell is a chain of teleport attacks like Planar Warrior's Distant Strike when in reality it's more akin to The Last Air Bender force thrust then teleport.
The fact that it doesn't teleport before to make melee weapon attacks dealing weapon damage type
But vanish before to make melee spell attack dealing force damage and then teleport after all attacks are done.
You aren't throwing or shooting anything, force thrust is wind striking as hard as steel (hence the name Steel Wind Strike) from your position when casing and making melee spell attacks, dealing force damage to targets from up to 30 feet away from you.
While favor text isn't a thing in 5E, the term vanish is literally meaningless so this flavor has no effect mechanically speaking. I say this because i've seen people wondering if the caster became invisible.
....how do you figure that an English word defined in dictionaries is meaningless? Are you saying that it is not a game defined term? Because the entire basis of 5E is that it uses plain English to describe things to they don't have to define every single word.
So what happens in Thunder Step? "Immediately after you (meaningless term that is a synonym of vanish), a thunderous boom sounds..." Or can you just accept that words have meaning and the developers did not want to define everything.
Thunder Step doesn't have the word vanish in it, but it has rule support nonetheless as you teleport and then immediately after you disappear, a thunderous boom sounds is heard meanwhile Steel Wind Strike doesn't teleport you before attacks or between them, only after all of them.
Vanish is not a game term with an associated mechanics. Now it may result in some effect if the DM wants to go with such interpretatiion, but the spell provides no benefit as written, such as making you heavily obscured or invisible. If a DM want to apply benefits from Unseen Attacks and Targets based on the principle that the spell makes you vanish, it's entirely up to him or her, or not but it remains that the spell itself doesn't provide any mechanic rule support for it. This part at least align with the design intent when a Dev was asked.
On that topic, "...the Dev's opinion that..." is completely asinine. Are you saying that you have more insight into the meaning or intent behind things than the people that actually wrote it?? Why would you ask the writer of something what he meant when he wrote something, then completely discount that and say they are wrong? There are so many more points in favor of this being "multiple teleporting attacks" than "I'm shooting hard wind at you!"
I never said i had more insight that the Dev, i made a comment on their intent based on the opinion JC provided on the question on twitter. The people had question on the spell.
But RAW doesn't support the notion of multiple teleport attacks invisible, this is a fact. Here's the tweet in question;
@armando_doval Is the spellcaster invisible during every attack?
@JeremyECrawford If you cast steel wind strike, the spell doesn't make you invisible during its attacks. You do vanish from your starting location, as you start teleporting around the battlefield, but you blink into view as you make each attack and then teleport to your final destination.
The fact it doesn't make you re-appear, but teleport after the attacks, this is the RAW aspect that only matters. As written, you teleport once after all of the attacks are made when casting Steel Wind Strike. While JC can provide insight on how it's intended to work RAI, his tweets are not official rule source RAW.
So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Narratively I tend to think of steel wind strike functioning like a very anime multi-attack that happens so rapidly the "teleport" at the end is reality catching up with your final location. So in game terms you haven't moved from your location until the final blow is struck because it happens in a single instant.
While you can roll the five attacks in any order you like, the one you teleport to is (narratively) logically the final one.
Granted it's kind of an odd way to structure the spell to do the teleporting retroactively when I think we all picture it being multiple rapid teleports + attacks, but it also avoids any potential issues with how it interacts with effects that trigger on movement/location, and it's just easier to have only one teleport when the others aren't actually necessary.
For spirit shroud specifically it just means that the poor spirits struggle to keep up; if you want them to help, you need to pick only targets within 10 feet of your starting position.
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So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Yea have to agree with this really. five attacks, one teleport and no invisibility or such is what the spell description says. If one wants to narrate that slightly then go right ahead but I wouldn't add any mechanical extras on top of that.
So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Yea have to agree with this really. five attacks, one teleport and no invisibility or such is what the spell description says. If one wants to narrate that slightly then go right ahead but I wouldn't add any mechanical extras on top of that.
The glaring problem with that is that the spell specifically uses melee attacks and there is no change in the attacker's reach. A melee attack is a well defined mechanic in the game. You sort of have to work backwards here but the very fact that melee attacks are involved in this spell means that the attacks must be happening from within the attacker's reach by definition and it doesn't have to be spelled out any further than that in the spell description.
So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Yea have to agree with this really. five attacks, one teleport and no invisibility or such is what the spell description says. If one wants to narrate that slightly then go right ahead but I wouldn't add any mechanical extras on top of that.
The glaring problem with that is that the spell specifically uses melee attacks and there is no change in the attacker's reach. A melee attack is a well defined mechanic in the game. You sort of have to work backwards here but the very fact that melee attacks are involved in this spell means that the attacks must be happening from within the attacker's reach by definition and it doesn't have to be spelled out any further than that in the spell description.
That’s not a glaring issue. Spell descriptions give the distances for spell attacks. The disconnect is the assumption that melee spell attacks are required to be made within the casters reach, which seems to be what range of touch would be.
if the spell says melee attack with a 30ft range, that’s what it does.
So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Yea have to agree with this really. five attacks, one teleport and no invisibility or such is what the spell description says. If one wants to narrate that slightly then go right ahead but I wouldn't add any mechanical extras on top of that.
The glaring problem with that is that the spell specifically uses melee attacks and there is no change in the attacker's reach. A melee attack is a well defined mechanic in the game. You sort of have to work backwards here but the very fact that melee attacks are involved in this spell means that the attacks must be happening from within the attacker's reach by definition and it doesn't have to be spelled out any further than that in the spell description.
This is correct. Since the spell makes melee attacks, those attacks must be, by definition, within reach. Of the spell. The reach of the spell is 30 feet.
Nothing says that the reach of a spell is 5 feet by default. Thorn whip lets you make a melee attack from quite a distance, as does Distant Spell used on something like shocking grasp.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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The melee attaks you make with Steel Wind Strike doesn't use your reach because they aren't weapon attacks but melee spell attack. That's why the word within range is used as opposed to within reach. No spells making melee spell attack or ranged spell attack use the word within reach to my knowledge, all instead use within range or within X feet.
5. You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.
Casting rider. After the spell concludes you are now in X position.
Then, look at spirit shroud. 1. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals 1d8 extra damage when you hit a creature within 10 feet of you.
So yes, it stacks. Anything else, you need to redefine one of the above sentences in SWS to mean something outside of their specific wording. i.e. read them as RAI vs. RAW.
Source? The link you used isn't useful at all. Casting the spell isn't the Attack action, it's the [Tooltip Not Found] action. I'll give you some evidence that you're wrong: thorn whip.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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It is an interesting question how Steel Wind Strike functions specifically.
If you follow a RAW interpretation, it instructs you to disappear, make melee spell attacks, then teleport. Since you attack after you disappear, that gives credence to making attacks where the attacked cannot see you - providing advantage on attack rolls. Spirit Shroud technically doesn't exists while you disappear, before you teleport (back into existence for all other intents and purposes) so it doesn't grant you the extra damage procs.
If you follow a RAI interpretation, you're basically teleporting to any of your targets, making a melee spell attack, then teleport to another guy to make a melee spell attack against them, etc. - ending the ordeal when you teleport to a position that thematically is supposed to be the last one hit in the series of attacks. That interpretation gives credence to believing Spirit Shroud does follow you around while teleporting and should grant you the extra damage, since the attacks are presumably made within a 5 ft. distance from your target, based on the teleport portion in the end, describing a specific range to your last target.
Although if you consider how many spells are made to be relatively self-contained, SWS doesn't gain advantage on attacks nor the Spirit Shroud's extra damage. And the answer from Crawford regarding invisibility during SWS discredits such interpretation from the RAW interpretation.
If you're arguing that teleporting during SWS is too fast for SS to keep up, but has no issue with Misty Step or other forms of teleportation, then there's suddenly a presumed presence of speed for effects that centers on a fixed object/person to the point that SS is treated as a separate entity. Would something like Light being cast on the SWS caster's chestplate be treated the same or will there be an instant where a 30 ft. radius around all targets are lit up for a split-second?
If the person you were attacking with Steel Wind Strike was surrounded by cloud of daggers, in such a way you could not avoid entering the aoe were you to attack them normally, you would not take the cloud of daggers damage. Therefore, you’re not present, and spirit shroud shouldn’t trigger unless you were already within ten feet of the target. Arguing over the definitions of words doesn’t change that.
EDIT: So no-one says it’s impossible to position a cloud of daggers like that, it could easily be something like a wall of fire or a cloudkill.
The spell Steel Wind Strike doesn't make you move in any target's space when attacking them though, as written you instaneously vanish and make a melee spell attack against up to five creatures you can see within 30 feet of you at the instant of casting the spell, and then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.
This is an interesting one although I'm a little surprised that this thread is so long. Admittedly I have not read the whole thing but as for the question in the OP, in my opinion the combo works and the extra damage applies.
There are two things that support this: First, the spell describes making melee attacks which, by definition, occur within your reach.
Second, the only place that I could find a definition for what happens when you teleport appears within the Teleport spell:
Note that it does not say something like ceasing to exist and then re-existing in a new location. It says that you are "transported". Admittedly it's difficult to reconcile this with it happening "instantly", but the implication is that when you teleport you (your energy? your essence? you in some form that allows you to pass through solid objects?) are moved to the new location.
If you are moved when you teleport this also means that you don't expend movement to do so (forced movement doesn't count). This spell can be executed such that you are moved all around within this 30 foot area in order to be within 5 feet of each target at some point along the way and ending that journey next to one of them, all without requiring any movement to do it.
If you are next to each target when making all of these melee attacks then the extra damage from the other spell would apply to all of the hits.
RAW/RAI are very different here, RAW doesn’t consider flavour text and all that, and in RAW Spirit Shroud only affects the enemies within 10ft, the caster disappears, the attacks are made, and the caster finishes the teleport.
RAI, SWS is thematically a series of very quick attacks, so quick that it is literally instantaneous and you cannot be seen, so I see this as each of those attacks would be made while within 5ft (melee) and so SS should apply.
In general however I lean to the RAW.
I agree Steel Wind Strike design intent don't align with rules written RAI vs RAW when reading Dev's opinion that the spell is a chain of teleport attacks like Planar Warrior's Distant Strike when in reality it's more akin to The Last Air Bender force thrust then teleport.
The fact that it doesn't teleport before to make melee weapon attacks dealing weapon damage type
But vanish before to make melee spell attack dealing force damage and then teleport after all attacks are done.
You aren't throwing or shooting anything, force thrust is wind striking as hard as steel (hence the name Steel Wind Strike) from your position when casing and making melee spell attacks, dealing force damage to targets from up to 30 feet away from you.
You basically jetblast them :)
While favor text isn't a thing in 5E, the term vanish is literally meaningless so this flavor has no effect mechanically speaking. I say this because i've seen people wondering if the caster became invisible.
Thunder Step doesn't have the word vanish in it, but it has rule support nonetheless as you teleport and then immediately after you disappear, a thunderous boom sounds is heard meanwhile Steel Wind Strike doesn't teleport you before attacks or between them, only after all of them.
Vanish is not a game term with an associated mechanics. Now it may result in some effect if the DM wants to go with such interpretatiion, but the spell provides no benefit as written, such as making you heavily obscured or invisible. If a DM want to apply benefits from Unseen Attacks and Targets based on the principle that the spell makes you vanish, it's entirely up to him or her, or not but it remains that the spell itself doesn't provide any mechanic rule support for it. This part at least align with the design intent when a Dev was asked.
I never said i had more insight that the Dev, i made a comment on their intent based on the opinion JC provided on the question on twitter. The people had question on the spell.
But RAW doesn't support the notion of multiple teleport attacks invisible, this is a fact. Here's the tweet in question;
The fact it doesn't make you re-appear, but teleport after the attacks, this is the RAW aspect that only matters. As written, you teleport once after all of the attacks are made when casting Steel Wind Strike. While JC can provide insight on how it's intended to work RAI, his tweets are not official rule source RAW.
So while narratively the spell makes you vanish to strike like the wind, mechanically speaking,you don't teleport, become invisible or attack with your weapon. So each is free to narratively explains how it happens, RAW you select targets within 30 feet of you at the moment of casting the spell, attackthem, and then teleport next to one. No more no less.
Narratively I tend to think of steel wind strike functioning like a very anime multi-attack that happens so rapidly the "teleport" at the end is reality catching up with your final location. So in game terms you haven't moved from your location until the final blow is struck because it happens in a single instant.
While you can roll the five attacks in any order you like, the one you teleport to is (narratively) logically the final one.
Granted it's kind of an odd way to structure the spell to do the teleporting retroactively when I think we all picture it being multiple rapid teleports + attacks, but it also avoids any potential issues with how it interacts with effects that trigger on movement/location, and it's just easier to have only one teleport when the others aren't actually necessary.
For spirit shroud specifically it just means that the poor spirits struggle to keep up; if you want them to help, you need to pick only targets within 10 feet of your starting position.
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Yea have to agree with this really. five attacks, one teleport and no invisibility or such is what the spell description says. If one wants to narrate that slightly then go right ahead but I wouldn't add any mechanical extras on top of that.
The glaring problem with that is that the spell specifically uses melee attacks and there is no change in the attacker's reach. A melee attack is a well defined mechanic in the game. You sort of have to work backwards here but the very fact that melee attacks are involved in this spell means that the attacks must be happening from within the attacker's reach by definition and it doesn't have to be spelled out any further than that in the spell description.
That’s not a glaring issue. Spell descriptions give the distances for spell attacks. The disconnect is the assumption that melee spell attacks are required to be made within the casters reach, which seems to be what range of touch would be.
if the spell says melee attack with a 30ft range, that’s what it does.
This is correct. Since the spell makes melee attacks, those attacks must be, by definition, within reach. Of the spell. The reach of the spell is 30 feet.
Nothing says that the reach of a spell is 5 feet by default. Thorn whip lets you make a melee attack from quite a distance, as does Distant Spell used on something like shocking grasp.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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The melee attaks you make with Steel Wind Strike doesn't use your reach because they aren't weapon attacks but melee spell attack. That's why the word within range is used as opposed to within reach. No spells making melee spell attack or ranged spell attack use the word within reach to my knowledge, all instead use within range or within X feet.
Break it down, make it simple. Each sentence clarifies a different point of this layered spell.
1. You flourish the weapon used in the casting and then vanish to strike like the wind.
This simply affirms the component requirements. Flourish is somatic, a 1sp cost melee weapon is the material.
2. Choose up to five creatures you can see within range.
This clarifies targeting. Who can be affected when you cast the spell. This is NOT the attack range.
3. Make a melee spell attack against each target.
This clarifies the attack type, and the attack range. It is 100% an attack made from a range of 5-10 ft. see: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#Attack
4. On a hit, a target takes 6d10![]()
force damage.
Damage clarification. Amount and type.
5. You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed.
Casting rider. After the spell concludes you are now in X position.
Then, look at spirit shroud.
1. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals 1d8
So yes, it stacks. Anything else, you need to redefine one of the above sentences in SWS to mean something outside of their specific wording. i.e. read them as RAI vs. RAW.
Source? The link you used isn't useful at all. Casting the spell isn't the Attack action, it's the [Tooltip Not Found] action. I'll give you some evidence that you're wrong: thorn whip.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It is an interesting question how Steel Wind Strike functions specifically.
If you follow a RAW interpretation, it instructs you to disappear, make melee spell attacks, then teleport. Since you attack after you disappear, that gives credence to making attacks where the attacked cannot see you - providing advantage on attack rolls. Spirit Shroud technically doesn't exists while you disappear, before you teleport (back into existence for all other intents and purposes) so it doesn't grant you the extra damage procs.
If you follow a RAI interpretation, you're basically teleporting to any of your targets, making a melee spell attack, then teleport to another guy to make a melee spell attack against them, etc. - ending the ordeal when you teleport to a position that thematically is supposed to be the last one hit in the series of attacks. That interpretation gives credence to believing Spirit Shroud does follow you around while teleporting and should grant you the extra damage, since the attacks are presumably made within a 5 ft. distance from your target, based on the teleport portion in the end, describing a specific range to your last target.
Although if you consider how many spells are made to be relatively self-contained, SWS doesn't gain advantage on attacks nor the Spirit Shroud's extra damage. And the answer from Crawford regarding invisibility during SWS discredits such interpretation from the RAW interpretation.
If you're arguing that teleporting during SWS is too fast for SS to keep up, but has no issue with Misty Step or other forms of teleportation, then there's suddenly a presumed presence of speed for effects that centers on a fixed object/person to the point that SS is treated as a separate entity. Would something like Light being cast on the SWS caster's chestplate be treated the same or will there be an instant where a 30 ft. radius around all targets are lit up for a split-second?
If the person you were attacking with Steel Wind Strike was surrounded by cloud of daggers, in such a way you could not avoid entering the aoe were you to attack them normally, you would not take the cloud of daggers damage. Therefore, you’re not present, and spirit shroud shouldn’t trigger unless you were already within ten feet of the target. Arguing over the definitions of words doesn’t change that.
EDIT: So no-one says it’s impossible to position a cloud of daggers like that, it could easily be something like a wall of fire or a cloudkill.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.