For reference, here's the text of the cleric's Turn Undead feature:
As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.
Will turned creatures avoid obviously dangerous obstacles (cliffs, lava, battlefield control spells, etc.) while moving away from the cleric? It doesn't specify that they would try to avoid hazards or stop when they get there, which makes me think they would walk through the hazards, but I haven't been able to find any official clarification of the RAI for the matter. What are your thoughts? How would you rule it?
I think it depends. For a very dumb type of undead such as zombies, I think they would not try to avoid hazards but also not seek them out. They would simply flee in a straight line. For smarter ones such as skeletons (why are skeletons smarter? They have less brain in their heads than zombies! It doesn’t make sense!) I think they would try to avoid hazards. If the choice was between hazard and within 30 feet of the cleric, however, the undead would choose hazard unless it had succeeded its saving throw.
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Anything is edible if you try hard enough!
I am a swimmer. If you see me running, you should run too, because it means something horrible is chasing me.
I think the general rule is that a creature that’s forced to flee won’t do anything to hurt themselves. They’ll run up to the edge of a cliff, but won’t jump off of it, for example. The undead, to my mind, would go around the hazard.
Compare it against Fear (take the “safest available route” unless nowhere to move, meaning they’ll detour to avoid danger but will take damage/danger rather than stand still) vs. Wand of Fear (move “as far away from you” as it can, disregarding safety/damage in favor of distance moved). When you realize that those are the two extremes that frightened effects can produce (with the middle ground just being the Frightened condition itself, which requires no specific movement, but does prevent movement in certain directions), it seems clear which side Turn Undead is on (even though it isn’t actually a Frightened effect, weird!)
They move in whatever direction will take them farthest, regardless of danger/damage, so long as it wouldn’t end within 30 of the cleric. If two equally far choices present, one of which is safe and one dangerous, up to your DM if the Undead makes an intelligent choice or just randomly picks one... but they DONT stop at the edge of cliffs if jumping off them would take them further, that is an explicit violation of “as far away from you as it can” and a nerf to the players class feature that’s unwarranted.
But keep in mind, a crafty DM can use this ruling in their own favor, by having undead flee in a way that harms them and breaks the Turn effect, so it’s not all good news for the cleric...
But keep in mind, a crafty DM can use this ruling in their own favor, by having undead flee in a way that harms them and breaks the Turn effect, so it’s not all good news for the cleric...
The most immediately relevant use in our current campaign will involve castle walls above a sea of lava, so I doubt ending the turn effect in that way would be much of an issue if they end up moving in that way. Definitely good to generally keep in mind, though.
They move in whatever direction will take them farthest, regardless of danger/damage, so long as it wouldn’t end within 30 of the cleric. If two equally far choices present, one of which is safe and one dangerous, up to your DM if the Undead makes an intelligent choice or just randomly picks one... but they DONT stop at the edge of cliffs if jumping off them would take them further, that is an explicit violation of “as far away from you as it can” and a nerf to the players class feature that’s unwarranted.
So, I would love this to be the case. But to be a rules-lawyer, I feel like I hafta point this out:
For reference, here's the text of the cleric's Turn Undead feature:
If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action.
And now the question becomes, "Does 'over a cliff' count as 'nowhere to move'?"
At first glance, the answer may seem obviously, "Yes." But a cliff is different from a wall. A skeleton has no agency to climb a wall. It's impossible. (A vampire could, tho.) But a skeleton does have the agency to jump off a cliff. That extra downward movement is still 'moving away'. And, not to ruin anyone's day, but if we wanna get realistic in our reasoning: people have been known to jump from burning buildings, even though they die from the fall. Historically, people sometimes choose a quick suicide over a slow, agonizing death. Isn't the whole point that the undead are fleeing the holiness of the cleric's god? Like, fleeing the promise\appearance of absolute retribution? A burning building is hell enough, but it's not Hell.
So we can argue that 'over a cliff' is still going somewhere.
And we can also argue that even intelligent undead might choose death when faced with the vengeance of a holy god.
(Of course, this is still speaking in terms of cliff-jumping, which is intuitively the same thought I had before I even found this thread.)
1. For Zombies specifically, the description in the Monster Manual states this: "Zombies take the most direct route to any foe, unable to comprehend obstacles, tactics, or dangerous terrain. A zombie might stumble into a fast-flowing river to reach foes on a far shore, clawing at the surface as it is battered against rocks and destroyed. To reach a foe below it, a zombie might step out of an open window. Zombies stumble through roaring infernos, into pools of acid, and across fields littered with caltrops without hesitation."
2. The spell Dissonant Whispers functions much the same way but actually specifies "The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit"
So zombies are a pretty obvious exception, regardless. However the 2nd point shows a spell with much the same effect but it actually goes to the trouble of specifying that creatures will avoid obvious harm with their movement. RAW the "Turn Undead" function does NOT say that undead creatures won't move into obviously dangerous ground. it specifies that a "creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you"
Obviously not an official ruling but to show how specific the wording can be, here's a tweet from Jeremy Crawford: "The effect of Turn Undead doesn't end upon the cleric's death. The feature's text would say if it did."
Sure enough there are plenty of examples out there of concentration or other spells ending if the creature or caster dies to show that if it's intended then the feature's text would say it. Similarly, I believe that if Turn Undead was intended to allow undead to avoid dangerous ground in their move "the feature's text would say if it did". However, it doesn't say that they move directly away, which suggests that if they can work out a route that will take them farther away than a straight line, they will take that path (provided it doesn't bring them within 30 feet of the cleric). This could also be argued to account for difficult terrain that would slow their movement.
Some additional things to note is that it specifies that the only action the affected undead can take are the Dash and Dodge actions together with no reactions. So if a cleric managed to turn an undead with magic or special movement features, the undead couldn't use it's action or reaction to make use of some teleportation for example (bonus actions are not mentioned).
If we read into this for RAI then I think this shows that the Turn Undead feature repels the undead so much that they almost mindlessly try to flee and escape, forgoing any features or spells that could help them get further away or more safely away to simply dash further and dodge.
Obviously, the moment the creature took damage the effect would end and it could use any remaining movement or actions (if it hasn't already finished regular movement and taken dodge or dash).
Just because they are compelled to dash doesn't mean they can't climb down a cliff instead of leaping to their doom. It also doesn't mean they won't run towards other members of the party as long as they are 30 feet away from the Cleric.
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Just because they are compelled to dash doesn't mean they can't climb down a cliff instead of leaping to their doom. It also doesn't mean they won't run towards other members of the party as long as they are 30 feet away from the Cleric.
I think the RAW rules lawyering here would point out "move as far away from you as it can".
I don't believe that "falling" is part of a creature's move. But climbing and jumping certainly are so I could see a good argument that undead (possibly with the exception of a zombie due to it's own specific wording) would, or could, opt to climb or jump an obstacle, even fly or burrow if they have those movement options available without using their action which must be spent on "dash" or "dodge".
The other part is that they must move as far away from the cleric as they can. This doesn't specify that they must move in a straight line, away from the cleric and while it specified that they can't willingly move into a space within 30 feet of the cleric, it doesn't specify how they must move within the 30 feet if they start their turn there. RAW would suggest they could easily move towards and past the cleric if they see a path or place which will take them farther away by the end of their turn. Moving towards the other players could go one of two ways. In most cases, you can't move through the space of a hostile or unwilling creature, so if the undead is regarded as being capable of discerning that the path is blocked by the players or going around them would not take it as far away as possible from the cleric, it might not choose this option. Difficult Terrain presents a similar issue where a DM might need to decide if the undead is able to discern that the difficult terrain would cause it not to move a far away as a less direct path might.
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For reference, here's the text of the cleric's Turn Undead feature:
Will turned creatures avoid obviously dangerous obstacles (cliffs, lava, battlefield control spells, etc.) while moving away from the cleric? It doesn't specify that they would try to avoid hazards or stop when they get there, which makes me think they would walk through the hazards, but I haven't been able to find any official clarification of the RAI for the matter. What are your thoughts? How would you rule it?
I think it depends. For a very dumb type of undead such as zombies, I think they would not try to avoid hazards but also not seek them out. They would simply flee in a straight line. For smarter ones such as skeletons (why are skeletons smarter? They have less brain in their heads than zombies! It doesn’t make sense!) I think they would try to avoid hazards. If the choice was between hazard and within 30 feet of the cleric, however, the undead would choose hazard unless it had succeeded its saving throw.
Anything is edible if you try hard enough!
I am a swimmer. If you see me running, you should run too, because it means something horrible is chasing me.
I think the general rule is that a creature that’s forced to flee won’t do anything to hurt themselves. They’ll run up to the edge of a cliff, but won’t jump off of it, for example. The undead, to my mind, would go around the hazard.
Ultimately up to the DM, I definitely wouldn't have them run straight I to danger.
Compare it against Fear (take the “safest available route” unless nowhere to move, meaning they’ll detour to avoid danger but will take damage/danger rather than stand still) vs. Wand of Fear (move “as far away from you” as it can, disregarding safety/damage in favor of distance moved). When you realize that those are the two extremes that frightened effects can produce (with the middle ground just being the Frightened condition itself, which requires no specific movement, but does prevent movement in certain directions), it seems clear which side Turn Undead is on (even though it isn’t actually a Frightened effect, weird!)
They move in whatever direction will take them farthest, regardless of danger/damage, so long as it wouldn’t end within 30 of the cleric. If two equally far choices present, one of which is safe and one dangerous, up to your DM if the Undead makes an intelligent choice or just randomly picks one... but they DONT stop at the edge of cliffs if jumping off them would take them further, that is an explicit violation of “as far away from you as it can” and a nerf to the players class feature that’s unwarranted.
But keep in mind, a crafty DM can use this ruling in their own favor, by having undead flee in a way that harms them and breaks the Turn effect, so it’s not all good news for the cleric...
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The most immediately relevant use in our current campaign will involve castle walls above a sea of lava, so I doubt ending the turn effect in that way would be much of an issue if they end up moving in that way. Definitely good to generally keep in mind, though.
So, I would love this to be the case. But to be a rules-lawyer, I feel like I hafta point this out:
And now the question becomes, "Does 'over a cliff' count as 'nowhere to move'?"
At first glance, the answer may seem obviously, "Yes." But a cliff is different from a wall. A skeleton has no agency to climb a wall. It's impossible. (A vampire could, tho.) But a skeleton does have the agency to jump off a cliff. That extra downward movement is still 'moving away'. And, not to ruin anyone's day, but if we wanna get realistic in our reasoning: people have been known to jump from burning buildings, even though they die from the fall. Historically, people sometimes choose a quick suicide over a slow, agonizing death. Isn't the whole point that the undead are fleeing the holiness of the cleric's god? Like, fleeing the promise\appearance of absolute retribution? A burning building is hell enough, but it's not Hell.
So we can argue that 'over a cliff' is still going somewhere.
And we can also argue that even intelligent undead might choose death when faced with the vengeance of a holy god.
(Of course, this is still speaking in terms of cliff-jumping, which is intuitively the same thought I had before I even found this thread.)
If the hazard is visible, you will not enter the area. But you can hide a hazard. It's called a trap.
Fear works well to trick people into traps. You can't always just lay them out and hope people enter them.
Two things to add on this.
1. For Zombies specifically, the description in the Monster Manual states this: "Zombies take the most direct route to any foe, unable to comprehend obstacles, tactics, or dangerous terrain. A zombie might stumble into a fast-flowing river to reach foes on a far shore, clawing at the surface as it is battered against rocks and destroyed. To reach a foe below it, a zombie might step out of an open window. Zombies stumble through roaring infernos, into pools of acid, and across fields littered with caltrops without hesitation."
2. The spell Dissonant Whispers functions much the same way but actually specifies "The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit"
So zombies are a pretty obvious exception, regardless. However the 2nd point shows a spell with much the same effect but it actually goes to the trouble of specifying that creatures will avoid obvious harm with their movement. RAW the "Turn Undead" function does NOT say that undead creatures won't move into obviously dangerous ground. it specifies that a "creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you"
Obviously not an official ruling but to show how specific the wording can be, here's a tweet from Jeremy Crawford:
"The effect of Turn Undead doesn't end upon the cleric's death. The feature's text would say if it did."
Sure enough there are plenty of examples out there of concentration or other spells ending if the creature or caster dies to show that if it's intended then the feature's text would say it. Similarly, I believe that if Turn Undead was intended to allow undead to avoid dangerous ground in their move "the feature's text would say if it did". However, it doesn't say that they move directly away, which suggests that if they can work out a route that will take them farther away than a straight line, they will take that path (provided it doesn't bring them within 30 feet of the cleric). This could also be argued to account for difficult terrain that would slow their movement.
Some additional things to note is that it specifies that the only action the affected undead can take are the Dash and Dodge actions together with no reactions. So if a cleric managed to turn an undead with magic or special movement features, the undead couldn't use it's action or reaction to make use of some teleportation for example (bonus actions are not mentioned).
If we read into this for RAI then I think this shows that the Turn Undead feature repels the undead so much that they almost mindlessly try to flee and escape, forgoing any features or spells that could help them get further away or more safely away to simply dash further and dodge.
Obviously, the moment the creature took damage the effect would end and it could use any remaining movement or actions (if it hasn't already finished regular movement and taken dodge or dash).
Just because they are compelled to dash doesn't mean they can't climb down a cliff instead of leaping to their doom. It also doesn't mean they won't run towards other members of the party as long as they are 30 feet away from the Cleric.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I think the RAW rules lawyering here would point out "move as far away from you as it can".
I don't believe that "falling" is part of a creature's move. But climbing and jumping certainly are so I could see a good argument that undead (possibly with the exception of a zombie due to it's own specific wording) would, or could, opt to climb or jump an obstacle, even fly or burrow if they have those movement options available without using their action which must be spent on "dash" or "dodge".
The other part is that they must move as far away from the cleric as they can. This doesn't specify that they must move in a straight line, away from the cleric and while it specified that they can't willingly move into a space within 30 feet of the cleric, it doesn't specify how they must move within the 30 feet if they start their turn there. RAW would suggest they could easily move towards and past the cleric if they see a path or place which will take them farther away by the end of their turn. Moving towards the other players could go one of two ways. In most cases, you can't move through the space of a hostile or unwilling creature, so if the undead is regarded as being capable of discerning that the path is blocked by the players or going around them would not take it as far away as possible from the cleric, it might not choose this option. Difficult Terrain presents a similar issue where a DM might need to decide if the undead is able to discern that the difficult terrain would cause it not to move a far away as a less direct path might.