I usually just call for a spellcasting check, if someone wants to do something beyond the norm.
"Concealed Casting" would be something like DC 15 + Spell Level, so they'd have about a 50/50 chance of success with their highest level spells. Advantage/disadvantage for appropriate circumstances.
The dice make successes more sweet and the failures easier to accept.
So... shut down Arcane Trickster's main ability to protect an ability of Sorcerers. Why, exactly, do Sorcerers win that rules duel so automatically?
Your mileage may vary, but at my table, if you want to cast a spell subtly, you need to have access to the subtle spell metamagic feature.
EDIT: I was going to delete this post, but I'll leave it. Do what you want to do. If you have no sorcerers in your game, then nobody is being cheated by letting your AT quietly cast mage hand. And even if you do have a sorcerer, if they don't feel cheated by this, then it doesn't hurt anything.
Arcane Trickster can cast Mage Hand using their action and then use their Cunning Action bonus action to Hide. How are DMs making this impossible?
You can do that. Now everyone knows you just cast a spell and then disappeared, and you haven't picked any pockets yet. They can GTFO, call the city watch, whatever.
Everyone except for the creatures that are too far away to hear you or are distracted because they are interested in something else or are nearer to something that’s louder than the V component of the spell or ...
There are a lot of reasons why a DM might decide that an NPC might not hear the vocal component of a spell. It’s one of those things that designers left for the DM to decide rather than try to make some rule set in stone (or the PHB) that is hard to figure out and would probably make no sense half the time.
There are places you can literally hear a pin drop but there are also places where you can barely understand a friend who is yelling in your ear. The vocal component might not be heard at all or it might not be recognized as magic. A DM who rules that everyone within 300 feet is immediately on guard for an invisible hand after the AT casts the spell is just being lazy.
Everyone except for the creatures that are too far away to hear you or are distracted because they are interested in something else or are nearer to something that’s louder than the V component of the spell or ...
Not generally relevant:
Anyone too far away to hear you is too far away to pickpocket - the hand's maximum speed is 60 (if you consume both your action and your bonus action moving it), 30 if you hold on to your action or bonus action for things like maintaining Stealth. It's a nonstarter, in general, summoning the hand far away and then taking it into the pickpocketing situation with you.
There are no general rules for distraction or for anything being louder than the V component of the spell (the volume of which is totally unknowable). The topic at hand is GMs ruling you can't apply Stealth to spellcasting, which usually also means you can't distract the target (since the target doesn't roll Perception vs Stealth in any way to notice the spellcast, there's nothing to apply advantage or disadvantage to), and certainly also means it's almost never well-defined for an ongoing noise source (perhaps you're theorizing the sound of a crowded street?) to be louder than the cast.
There are a lot of reasons why a DM might decide that an NPC might not hear the vocal component of a spell. It’s one of those things that designers left for the DM to decide rather than try to make some rule set in stone (or the PHB) that is hard to figure out and would probably make no sense half the time.
There are places you can literally hear a pin drop but there are also places where you can barely understand a friend who is yelling in your ear. The vocal component might not be heard at all or it might not be recognized as magic. A DM who rules that everyone within 300 feet is immediately on guard for an invisible hand after the AT casts the spell is just being lazy.
Most GMs - and I firmly agree with them - would certainly agree that base, i.e. without applying Stealth or Deception or anything, everyone within 30 feet of you hears a spell being cast unless something extremely loud is present. This is entirely homebrew, as I noted above. But the topic at hand is that Verbal components have no known volume and, as has already been pointed out in the thread by GMs who really do rule this way, it is common and typical for GMs to rule that V components are uncontrollably loud and obvious, and there's no skillcheck capable of muffling them or making them sound like something else. I'm not sure why you're going off-topic by emphasizing that some GMs houserule other ways. Certainly they do. 100% for certain, there are GMs out there who have house rules for using Stealth, Deception, and I am sure other skills (Perception and Insight, for starters) for working out if a spell is seen/heard. But that's not germane to the current discussion, unless you want to dispute my claim about which type of GM is more common, and I doubt either of us can back claims like that up - I can only speak based on my personal experience, for sure.
In general, what an AT needs/wants to do is stealth into being within 30 feet of their target, then cast mage hand, then use their bonus action to pickpocket with the mage hand, so the target is within 30 feet of the cast. In order to achieve this, they generally need a house rule of some sort, because baseline, the target will hear them, recognize the spell as a spell, and spook. It's my experience that most GMs will not provide such a house rule.
The spell has a 1 minute duration. You can move and move the Mage Hand after you cast it. You don’t have to be within 30’ when the spell is cast. 1 minute = 10 turns, thus around 300’ with a turn to spare to do the pickpocket. The Thunderclap spell “can be heard up to 100’ away”. I would think that the V component of a spell isn’t as loud as Thunderclap.
The hand does actually last a minute and it does not cost a bonus action to 'maintain' stealth.
This is also highly GM dependent. I've lost count of how many GMs I've had who make me re-roll Stealth every time I move in order to Hide again in the new location.
The spell has a 1 minute duration. You can move and move the Mage Hand after you cast it. You don’t have to be within 30’ when the spell is cast. 1 minute = 10 turns, thus around 300’ with a turn to spare to do the pickpocket. The Thunderclap spell “can be heard up to 100’ away”. I would think that the V component of a spell isn’t as loud as Thunderclap.
You can move the hand, although it's substantially slower than even a baseline Rogue, let alone one who's worked on being faster. If you take a Dash action, you should just assume your hand is going to evaporate.
One of the house rules I've contemplated - because many are possible; my favorite remains ruling that it's possible to cast Stealthfully - is making the Mage Hand at least as fast as the AT's movement speed. But now I'm getting off topic. Point is, always ask your GM what their rules are for Stealth, including Stealth Casting.
You can move the hand 30’ per turn. So unless the rogue is using the Dash action, there shouldn’t be a problem. It can be moved 300’ during its 1 minute duration. Any DM who saying that there is no way for an AT to cast Mage Hand and then use it covertly in the next minute is not “simply following the rules.” That DM isn’t even trying to do their job.
A DM who thinks that the answer to every DM decision is found in the rules is fooling themselves. The rules can help guide your decisions but the answer to every problem isn’t written in ink or found in a digital book.
And keep in mind that the AT Rogue can make the hand invisible in that first round with a bonus action, so no stealth rolls are needed for the hand itself.
Just pointing out there's no bonus action required here. ATs can make the hand invisible as part of the action used to cast the spell.
So a ranger spots a rogue that is stealthed and uses hunters mark and shoots said ranger with 2 arrows. Would the action of the rogue being hit with 2 arrows actively "break" that rogues stealth?
So a ranger spots a rogue that is stealthed and uses hunters mark and shoots said ranger with 2 arrows. Would the action of the rogue being hit with 2 arrows actively "break" that rogues stealth?
If the ranger spots the rogue, the rogue is no longer hidden, period. The shooting with arrows has nothing to do with it.
Some would rule he is only known to the ranger but still hidden from those who can not directly see him.
Not counting spell effects.
If the ranger shouts "hes behind that tree" this does not specify which tree, who is behind it, or if its even a warning of danger. It also doesn't negate the rogues sneak attack because know one knows what side of the tree the rogue is going to attack from. He can still SA anyone he has advantage on.
During a fight character normally do not get much time to spot the rogue and also to yell out a fully clear description of who and where he is. The same with trying to yell that the caster of any type in the guy still in the doorway or at the back of the group. How do you know the class of the character in the back? He could just be the last guy moving in the round. The guy you thought was the rogue could just be a cautious Druid taking cover behind a tree.
I for one try not to meta game just to nurf a class or skill I personally do not like.
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I usually just call for a spellcasting check, if someone wants to do something beyond the norm.
"Concealed Casting" would be something like DC 15 + Spell Level, so they'd have about a 50/50 chance of success with their highest level spells. Advantage/disadvantage for appropriate circumstances.
The dice make successes more sweet and the failures easier to accept.
Your mileage may vary, but at my table, if you want to cast a spell subtly, you need to have access to the subtle spell metamagic feature.
EDIT: I was going to delete this post, but I'll leave it. Do what you want to do. If you have no sorcerers in your game, then nobody is being cheated by letting your AT quietly cast mage hand. And even if you do have a sorcerer, if they don't feel cheated by this, then it doesn't hurt anything.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Everyone except for the creatures that are too far away to hear you or are distracted because they are interested in something else or are nearer to something that’s louder than the V component of the spell or ...
There are a lot of reasons why a DM might decide that an NPC might not hear the vocal component of a spell. It’s one of those things that designers left for the DM to decide rather than try to make some rule set in stone (or the PHB) that is hard to figure out and would probably make no sense half the time.
There are places you can literally hear a pin drop but there are also places where you can barely understand a friend who is yelling in your ear. The vocal component might not be heard at all or it might not be recognized as magic. A DM who rules that everyone within 300 feet is immediately on guard for an invisible hand after the AT casts the spell is just being lazy.
Not generally relevant:
Most GMs - and I firmly agree with them - would certainly agree that base, i.e. without applying Stealth or Deception or anything, everyone within 30 feet of you hears a spell being cast unless something extremely loud is present. This is entirely homebrew, as I noted above. But the topic at hand is that Verbal components have no known volume and, as has already been pointed out in the thread by GMs who really do rule this way, it is common and typical for GMs to rule that V components are uncontrollably loud and obvious, and there's no skillcheck capable of muffling them or making them sound like something else. I'm not sure why you're going off-topic by emphasizing that some GMs houserule other ways. Certainly they do. 100% for certain, there are GMs out there who have house rules for using Stealth, Deception, and I am sure other skills (Perception and Insight, for starters) for working out if a spell is seen/heard. But that's not germane to the current discussion, unless you want to dispute my claim about which type of GM is more common, and I doubt either of us can back claims like that up - I can only speak based on my personal experience, for sure.
In general, what an AT needs/wants to do is stealth into being within 30 feet of their target, then cast mage hand, then use their bonus action to pickpocket with the mage hand, so the target is within 30 feet of the cast. In order to achieve this, they generally need a house rule of some sort, because baseline, the target will hear them, recognize the spell as a spell, and spook. It's my experience that most GMs will not provide such a house rule.
The spell has a 1 minute duration. You can move and move the Mage Hand after you cast it. You don’t have to be within 30’ when the spell is cast. 1 minute = 10 turns, thus around 300’ with a turn to spare to do the pickpocket. The Thunderclap spell “can be heard up to 100’ away”. I would think that the V component of a spell isn’t as loud as Thunderclap.
This is also highly GM dependent. I've lost count of how many GMs I've had who make me re-roll Stealth every time I move in order to Hide again in the new location.
You can move the hand, although it's substantially slower than even a baseline Rogue, let alone one who's worked on being faster. If you take a Dash action, you should just assume your hand is going to evaporate.
One of the house rules I've contemplated - because many are possible; my favorite remains ruling that it's possible to cast Stealthfully - is making the Mage Hand at least as fast as the AT's movement speed. But now I'm getting off topic. Point is, always ask your GM what their rules are for Stealth, including Stealth Casting.
You can move the hand 30’ per turn. So unless the rogue is using the Dash action, there shouldn’t be a problem. It can be moved 300’ during its 1 minute duration. Any DM who saying that there is no way for an AT to cast Mage Hand and then use it covertly in the next minute is not “simply following the rules.” That DM isn’t even trying to do their job.
A DM who thinks that the answer to every DM decision is found in the rules is fooling themselves. The rules can help guide your decisions but the answer to every problem isn’t written in ink or found in a digital book.
Just pointing out there's no bonus action required here. ATs can make the hand invisible as part of the action used to cast the spell.
So a ranger spots a rogue that is stealthed and uses hunters mark and shoots said ranger with 2 arrows. Would the action of the rogue being hit with 2 arrows actively "break" that rogues stealth?
A room smells the same to everyone but a gnome.
If the ranger spots the rogue, the rogue is no longer hidden, period. The shooting with arrows has nothing to do with it.
Some would rule he is only known to the ranger but still hidden from those who can not directly see him.
Not counting spell effects.
If the ranger shouts "hes behind that tree" this does not specify which tree, who is behind it, or if its even a warning of danger.
It also doesn't negate the rogues sneak attack because know one knows what side of the tree the rogue is going to attack from. He can still SA anyone he has advantage on.
During a fight character normally do not get much time to spot the rogue and also to yell out a fully clear description of who and where he is. The same with trying to yell that the caster of any type in the guy still in the doorway or at the back of the group. How do you know the class of the character in the back? He could just be the last guy moving in the round. The guy you thought was the rogue could just be a cautious Druid taking cover behind a tree.
I for one try not to meta game just to nurf a class or skill I personally do not like.