Just curious, why aren't Shadow dragons immune to necrotic damage? I know most things aren't but most dragons don't have resistance to the element they are based on they tend to be immune to it? Is this in error or for game balance?
Probably has to do with the fact that shadow dragon is a template that gets applied to other dragons when they spend too much time in the shadowfell. Necrotic isn't part of their original nature, but rather a nature they picked up from the environment.
There's a difference between Necrotic and Talfirian magic. A big one.
Necrotic Magic = Death Magic/Negative Energy
Talfirian Magic = Shadow Magic
Shadow Magic does not draw upon Negative Energy, it is a separate power derived from Shadowfell (And sometimes the Shadow Weave back when it existed).
Shadowfell has many deathly properties, but it is not Negative Energy, or Necrotic Magic, that turns a dragon into a shadow variant. Rather, the Talfirian, or Shadow Magic, is what transforms them. If Talfirian/Shadow damage existed, it is highly likely that Shadow Dragons would have resistance/immunity to it.
So just checking what the books say about necrotic and shadow magic. "As for what is Necrotic damage: Necrotic damage, dealt by certain undead and a spell such as chill touch, withers matter and even the soul. (PHB, p. 196). You can think of it as damage the corrupts flesh, matter, and even impacts the very soul of a creature."
"The power of shadow magic casts a strange pall over your physical presence. The spark of life that sustains you is muffled, as if it struggles to remain viable against the dark energy that imbues your soul."
Both above quotes speak of hurting the spark of life in essence and point towards corruption, so it seems the difference they are trying to make between the two is for "reasons". Rather then them logically being essentially the same thing.
Being that Shadow dragons breath a shadow attack that is necrotic they should be immune to such an effect at older age categories.
Shadow Dragons are not born as Shadow Dragons, they are transformed by time in the Shadowfell. Their immunity remains to the element of their birth color/metal/gem, and they gain resistance to necrotic due to their transformation. this is absolutely logical given the lore of shadow dragons.
Notice that the template for shadow dragons keep their original color in the name? A shadow dragon that was red is still a red dragon, "shadow" is added to it, it doesn't replace it.
No sir, there are some that are native to the Shadowfell, see 3.5 refs as well as 5th ed.(4th does not exist...)
You didn’t refute my comment…I said they weren’t Born as Shadow Dragons, not that they couldn’t be born in the Shadowfell. Even Shadowfell born dragons are born as true dragons and then change. This is clearly in the text.
there is also the fact that there are no pure shadow dragons in the MM.
Okay since the Shadowfell didn't become part of dnd till 4th ed and there are shadow dragons before that it points to the idea of them being actually a separate species and just not a template you slap onto a dragon who just wonders into the shadowfell for an extended stay. Here is a link showing they've been around since 1e.
Note that red shadow dragons don't change in physical description besides the scale coloring eyes and such. The artwork even done for Shadow dragon templates even shows this as native shadow dragons have wing arms not wings and forelegs and other dragons who have been converted retain their distinctive silhouette.
It even has a biology for them comparing them to other dragons.
Okay since the Shadowfell didn't become part of dnd till 4th ed and there are shadow dragons before that it points to the idea of them being actually a separate species and just not a template you slap onto a dragon who just wonders into the shadowfell for an extended stay. Here is a link showing they've been around since 1e.
Note that red shadow dragons don't change in physical description besides the scale coloring eyes and such. The artwork even done for Shadow dragon templates even shows this as native shadow dragons have wing arms not wings and forelegs and other dragons who have been converted retain their distinctive silhouette.
It even has a biology for them comparing them to other dragons.
Regardless of past editions, the creature you are wanting ( a pure shadow dragon) does not exist in 5e. Feel free to homebrew one off of an earlier edition, but in current one, Shadow dragons are transformed true dragons, even those born in the Shadowfell are this way, and so they maintain their original immunity and gain the resistance to necrotic that is given in the template
They have always been a separate species in D&D Lore, and I'm not sure how this "Shadow Dragon Template" came to be, there are very few templates in 5e, which makes is somewhat inconsistent anyway.
I mean, technically it's not a bad idea to have templates, but they usually create lots of problems of balance and computation, in addition to the lore ones.
The main reason for the template in this case is so they don't have to publish "shadow" versions of every chromatic and metallic dragon at every age (which would wind up being like 48 different dragons) in the MM.
I'm not super well versed on the lore of earlier editions, but the MM in this edition doesn't indicate that pure shadow dragons exist at all, rather, they are transformed true dragons, one and all.
They have always been a separate species in D&D Lore, and I'm not sure how this "Shadow Dragon Template" came to be, there are very few templates in 5e, which makes is somewhat inconsistent anyway.
I mean, technically it's not a bad idea to have templates, but they usually create lots of problems of balance and computation, in addition to the lore ones.
The lore changes in every edition. The 5e shadow dragons are dragons changed by the shadowfell and there are no other shadow dragons.
There are quite a few templates that I can think of (though all from the MM/DMG and not later books): shadow dragons, half dragons, dracoliches, and all NPC races. There are also variants for several dozen creatures and new books do still add these occasionally.
Lack of evidence not showing them to be in this edition doesn't mean they aren't there. Many things were not in 5e to start and have been added back over time. As the lore seems to be mostly consistent through the editions(to a point) it's just something they've not gotten to or might scrap. It's yet to be seen as 5th is still putting out new products.
Just curious, why aren't Shadow dragons immune to necrotic damage? I know most things aren't but most dragons don't have resistance to the element they are based on they tend to be immune to it? Is this in error or for game balance?
I don't know how we reached 2 pages of this thread without anyone answering your question, so I'll do it: because WOTC says so. You might as well ask us why 5E cats can't see in the dark. We have no way of divining WOTC's design process for you, so a question like "is this in error or for game balance?" isn't something anyone in this thread can answer. You could ask a WOTC design team member, but I'm skeptical they'll answer you. Several of them have active Twitters.
Cat's see quite well in the dark. Their keen senses are reflected in a bonus to Perception and their sense of spell, being surprisingly better than most animals, gets advantage. Perfectly covered by the rules. Why don't Shadow Dragons get to be immune to Necrotic damage? Because they are beings created by the shadow-stuff of the Shadowfell, not the Necrostuff of the Necrofell.
Cat's see quite well in the dark. Their keen senses are reflected in a bonus to Perception and their sense of spell, being surprisingly better than most animals, gets advantage. Perfectly covered by the rules. Why don't Shadow Dragons get to be immune to Necrotic damage? Because they are beings created by the shadow-stuff of the Shadowfell, not the Necrostuff of the Necrofell.
They aren't though...In the MM, they are true dragons (chromatic, metallic, gem) transformed by exposure to Shadowfell:
Shadow dragons are true dragons that were either born in the Shadowfell or transformed by years spent within its dismal confines...The transformation to a shadow dragon happens over a period of years, during which time a dragon’s scales lose their luster and fade to a charcoal hue. Its leathery wings become translucent, its eyes paling to pools of opalescent gray
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Just curious, why aren't Shadow dragons immune to necrotic damage? I know most things aren't but most dragons don't have resistance to the element they are based on they tend to be immune to it? Is this in error or for game balance?
Probably has to do with the fact that shadow dragon is a template that gets applied to other dragons when they spend too much time in the shadowfell. Necrotic isn't part of their original nature, but rather a nature they picked up from the environment.
True, in the older books Shadow Dragons were a species unto them self and not something slapped on as an after thought.:/
There's a difference between Necrotic and Talfirian magic. A big one.
Necrotic Magic = Death Magic/Negative Energy
Talfirian Magic = Shadow Magic
Shadow Magic does not draw upon Negative Energy, it is a separate power derived from Shadowfell (And sometimes the Shadow Weave back when it existed).
Shadowfell has many deathly properties, but it is not Negative Energy, or Necrotic Magic, that turns a dragon into a shadow variant. Rather, the Talfirian, or Shadow Magic, is what transforms them. If Talfirian/Shadow damage existed, it is highly likely that Shadow Dragons would have resistance/immunity to it.
I'm made of meat and am still vulnerable to meat....
Fire elementals are made of fire and immune to it. So, it's not always as simple as meat beats meat.;p
So just checking what the books say about necrotic and shadow magic. "As for what is Necrotic damage: Necrotic damage, dealt by certain undead and a spell such as chill touch, withers matter and even the soul. (PHB, p. 196). You can think of it as damage the corrupts flesh, matter, and even impacts the very soul of a creature."
"The power of shadow magic casts a strange pall over your physical presence. The spark of life that sustains you is muffled, as if it struggles to remain viable against the dark energy that imbues your soul."
Both above quotes speak of hurting the spark of life in essence and point towards corruption, so it seems the difference they are trying to make between the two is for "reasons". Rather then them logically being essentially the same thing.
Being that Shadow dragons breath a shadow attack that is necrotic they should be immune to such an effect at older age categories.
Notice that the template for shadow dragons keep their original color in the name? A shadow dragon that was red is still a red dragon, "shadow" is added to it, it doesn't replace it.
No sir, there are some that are native to the Shadowfell, see 3.5 refs as well as 5th ed.(4th does not exist...)
You didn’t refute my comment…I said they weren’t Born as Shadow Dragons, not that they couldn’t be born in the Shadowfell. Even Shadowfell born dragons are born as true dragons and then change. This is clearly in the text.
there is also the fact that there are no pure shadow dragons in the MM.
Tis a joke as 4th ed imho was terrible system wise.
Okay since the Shadowfell didn't become part of dnd till 4th ed and there are shadow dragons before that it points to the idea of them being actually a separate species and just not a template you slap onto a dragon who just wonders into the shadowfell for an extended stay. Here is a link showing they've been around since 1e.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_dragon
Note that red shadow dragons don't change in physical description besides the scale coloring eyes and such. The artwork even done for Shadow dragon templates even shows this as native shadow dragons have wing arms not wings and forelegs and other dragons who have been converted retain their distinctive silhouette.
It even has a biology for them comparing them to other dragons.
Regardless of past editions, the creature you are wanting ( a pure shadow dragon) does not exist in 5e. Feel free to homebrew one off of an earlier edition, but in current one, Shadow dragons are transformed true dragons, even those born in the Shadowfell are this way, and so they maintain their original immunity and gain the resistance to necrotic that is given in the template
The main reason for the template in this case is so they don't have to publish "shadow" versions of every chromatic and metallic dragon at every age (which would wind up being like 48 different dragons) in the MM.
I'm not super well versed on the lore of earlier editions, but the MM in this edition doesn't indicate that pure shadow dragons exist at all, rather, they are transformed true dragons, one and all.
The lore changes in every edition. The 5e shadow dragons are dragons changed by the shadowfell and there are no other shadow dragons.
There are quite a few templates that I can think of (though all from the MM/DMG and not later books): shadow dragons, half dragons, dracoliches, and all NPC races. There are also variants for several dozen creatures and new books do still add these occasionally.
Lack of evidence not showing them to be in this edition doesn't mean they aren't there. Many things were not in 5e to start and have been added back over time. As the lore seems to be mostly consistent through the editions(to a point) it's just something they've not gotten to or might scrap. It's yet to be seen as 5th is still putting out new products.
I don’t know.
I don't know how we reached 2 pages of this thread without anyone answering your question, so I'll do it: because WOTC says so. You might as well ask us why 5E cats can't see in the dark. We have no way of divining WOTC's design process for you, so a question like "is this in error or for game balance?" isn't something anyone in this thread can answer. You could ask a WOTC design team member, but I'm skeptical they'll answer you. Several of them have active Twitters.
Cat's see quite well in the dark. Their keen senses are reflected in a bonus to Perception and their sense of spell, being surprisingly better than most animals, gets advantage. Perfectly covered by the rules. Why don't Shadow Dragons get to be immune to Necrotic damage? Because they are beings created by the shadow-stuff of the Shadowfell, not the Necrostuff of the Necrofell.
<Insert clever signature here>
They aren't though...In the MM, they are true dragons (chromatic, metallic, gem) transformed by exposure to Shadowfell:
Shadow dragons are true dragons that were either born in the Shadowfell or transformed by years spent within its dismal confines...The transformation to a shadow dragon happens over a period of years, during which time a dragon’s scales lose their luster and fade to a charcoal hue. Its leathery wings become translucent, its eyes paling to pools of opalescent gray