2) Hunger of Hadar creates an area of blackness which can not be illuminated ... So in my opinion, creatures can't see into it, they can't see each other inside it and they can't see out of it. This means that all creatures either inside the Hunger of Hadar or outside can not see each other. They all have advantage to hit their target because they can't be seen and disadvantage because they can't see their target. This means that attack into, out of or within the darkness have neither advantage nor disadvantage (the OP example seemed to say that creatures attacking out of the blackness would attack with disadvantage which I disagree with since the blackness (in my opinion) blocks all vision).
I see why you may think that but as far as I'm aware I don't think that's totally accurate. The Advantage / Disadvantage arises from the effective blinded condition imposed by heavy obscurement (and in the case of Hunger of Hadar, the explicit blindness condition it causes). The errata'd rule on that is "A heavily obscured area doesn't blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it". Note also that just because you cannot see a creature doesn't mean you are unaware of it's presence, you may still perceive a creature through your other senses and prior knowledge of their location. For a creature to be fully hidden from you they need to take the "hide" action. Heavy obscurement similarly does not impose the "invisible" condition on those inside it either.
So in this circumstance, a creature inside the fog (or HoH) attempts to make a ranged attack at a creature outside the fog. The creature's target is heavily obscured by the fog, so that creature is effectively (or explicitly for HoH) blinded and has Disadvantage. On the target's side, the target is not effectively blinded because it is not at this moment in time attempting to use an action or feature that requires it to see anything in the fog, it's simply defending itself. The attacker is not hidden from it because it has not taken the hide action, and the attacker does not have the invisibility condition.
Therefore, there is only one advantage/disadvantage in play at this time which is that resulting from the creature inside the fog not being able to see it's target. So shooting out of fog or HoH results in disadvantage.
Infact this is where the key difference between Hunger of Hadar and Fog Cloud comes in, because for fog cloud you could apply the same logic in the reverse scenario for someone shooting into the fog cloud, since they're also effectively blinded and their target doesn't *actually* have the blinded condition. All parties, whether shooting out from, in to, or straight through a cloud of fog have disadvantage (the same is true for melee attacks inside a fog cloud). Where as with Hunger of Hadar, when shooting at a target inside they do have the blinded condition, so you gain advantage on attack rolls against them, which counters the disadvantage imposed from the heavily obscured area. This does ofcourse rely upon you having accurate knowledge of where to shoot inside the sphere, which is made difficult not only by the visual barrier, but also due to the noise it emanates masking footsteps and noises. This would probably require a decent perception check if the target has moved within the sphere. Strangely enough, it's also much easier to fight in melee inside HoH too since everyone are blinded and therefore on an even footing.
This thread needs a healthy dose of the finest post Chicken_Champ ever wrote. Way too many people are making way too many claims about the RAW with way too much confidence.
This thread needs a healthy dose of the finest post Chicken_Champ ever wrote. Way too many people are making way too many claims about the RAW with way too much confidence.
And for the record, HoH's use of the undefined term "blackness" 100% makes all of this worse, as so many other rules use the term "darkness".
Oh god you're right, I didn't realise there was a blanket clause stating "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." that's not even tied to the conditions or anything.
So that confirms the problem where two archers are more accurate shooting at eachother through a fog cloud than they are on a clear day at 300ft then...
Well in that case thank you for letting me know that the "unseen attackers" rules exist. I will now promptly ignore them in my own games because they make everything far less elegant and realistic, at least my previous understanding of fog cloud didn't inadvertently buff blind archers XD
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I see why you may think that but as far as I'm aware I don't think that's totally accurate. The Advantage / Disadvantage arises from the effective blinded condition imposed by heavy obscurement (and in the case of Hunger of Hadar, the explicit blindness condition it causes). The errata'd rule on that is "A heavily obscured area doesn't blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it". Note also that just because you cannot see a creature doesn't mean you are unaware of it's presence, you may still perceive a creature through your other senses and prior knowledge of their location. For a creature to be fully hidden from you they need to take the "hide" action. Heavy obscurement similarly does not impose the "invisible" condition on those inside it either.
So in this circumstance, a creature inside the fog (or HoH) attempts to make a ranged attack at a creature outside the fog. The creature's target is heavily obscured by the fog, so that creature is effectively (or explicitly for HoH) blinded and has Disadvantage. On the target's side, the target is not effectively blinded because it is not at this moment in time attempting to use an action or feature that requires it to see anything in the fog, it's simply defending itself. The attacker is not hidden from it because it has not taken the hide action, and the attacker does not have the invisibility condition.
Therefore, there is only one advantage/disadvantage in play at this time which is that resulting from the creature inside the fog not being able to see it's target. So shooting out of fog or HoH results in disadvantage.
Infact this is where the key difference between Hunger of Hadar and Fog Cloud comes in, because for fog cloud you could apply the same logic in the reverse scenario for someone shooting into the fog cloud, since they're also effectively blinded and their target doesn't *actually* have the blinded condition. All parties, whether shooting out from, in to, or straight through a cloud of fog have disadvantage (the same is true for melee attacks inside a fog cloud). Where as with Hunger of Hadar, when shooting at a target inside they do have the blinded condition, so you gain advantage on attack rolls against them, which counters the disadvantage imposed from the heavily obscured area. This does ofcourse rely upon you having accurate knowledge of where to shoot inside the sphere, which is made difficult not only by the visual barrier, but also due to the noise it emanates masking footsteps and noises. This would probably require a decent perception check if the target has moved within the sphere. Strangely enough, it's also much easier to fight in melee inside HoH too since everyone are blinded and therefore on an even footing.
This thread needs a healthy dose of the finest post Chicken_Champ ever wrote. Way too many people are making way too many claims about the RAW with way too much confidence.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/102520-if-at-disadvantage-always-fight-blind?comment=13
And for the record, HoH's use of the undefined term "blackness" 100% makes all of this worse, as so many other rules use the term "darkness".
Oh god you're right, I didn't realise there was a blanket clause stating "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." that's not even tied to the conditions or anything.
So that confirms the problem where two archers are more accurate shooting at eachother through a fog cloud than they are on a clear day at 300ft then...
Well in that case thank you for letting me know that the "unseen attackers" rules exist. I will now promptly ignore them in my own games because they make everything far less elegant and realistic, at least my previous understanding of fog cloud didn't inadvertently buff blind archers XD