I am probably missing something simple here but I am struggling to find information and understand what the possibilities and limitations are for the Dawn spell. The spell description is here so you don't have to go look:
The light of dawn shines down on a location you specify within range. Until the spell ends, a 30-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder of bright light glimmers there. This light is sunlight. When the cylinder appears, each creature in it must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 4d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw whenever it ends its turn in the cylinder. If you’re within 60 feet of the cylinder, you can move it up to 60 feet as a bonus action on your turn.
From the description, you don't have to see the location to cast the spell. You can then move it if you are within range of the spell. It does not say that you have to see where it is moving. Does that mean that you can be standing outside of a building, cast the spell and then move it inside? Does it literally shine down? If that is the case, then it could be moved floor to floor as well (only hitting one floor at at time since it would be blocked by each floor) in a multi level structure. All this is assuming that you know the layout or have been inside so you can place it accordingly or at least in the ballpark. Also, it doesn't go around corners so inside it would be limited by the room it was in and things like tables or a bed etc. Correct?
The party I am DMing for is trying to liberate a small keep that was taken by a group of bandits. They scouted and then dug tunnels underneath the keep within about 10 feet of the surface. They then had a telepathic bond for the entire party while the sorcerer polymorphed into a hawk and flew around the keep as a spotter. The cleric cast Dawn from below the surface and then moved it up with the assistance of the sorcerer. The cleric proceeded to move it all around for the minute and then cast it again to repeat the same thing. With the way they dug the tunnels, they were able to move within 60 feet of most locations within the keep walls.
I could not find anything in the spell description that would directly counter what they were doing but after some thought, I wondered about the 10 feet of dirt in between the caster and the spell. Many spells can't go through 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.
What do you think? I spent about 20 minutes online looking at various things but could not find anything that addressed this directly.
You don't need line of sight for Dawn, which is a good thing... because casting it in darkness is kind of its best use case. But when it comes to casting it in a room that you're outside of on the other side of a door... the spell doesn't have language that prevents that, but the general spellcasting rules do, because line of effect is a thing.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
The "Something" that Dawn targets is "a location you specify within range." While you can absolutely specify a location you don't see, if that location is on the other side of an obstruction (a poorly defined concept that nevertheless clearly includes solid walls, floors, etc.), then the spell works, but effect on the near side of that obstruction.
Now, does the same apply to using the Bonus Action to move the effect, once it's in place? Can you cast Dawn, leave the room, but then still use Bonus Actions to move it around within the room to locations you specify but don't see? I don't see why not, so long as you're still within 60 feet. There is no general prohibition on concentrating on spells through obstructions, or even influencing them, just on requiring line of effect when casting them. (*note... if you ignore section headings, I suppose you could ARGUE that line of effect is required whenever you target something, not just when you target something while part of [Tooltip Not Found]... if that's a preferred interpretation, then I'd still argue that "moving" the area effect of Dawn doesn't actually involve "targeting" a new point of origin, but that could certainly cause some issues for other spells with subsequent actions that "target" a creature or point).
In your example, being underground (the ground being a solid obstruction between the caster and the surface) means that the spell should have taken effect inside the tunnel, not on the surface. But if there was an opening to the surface, the caster should have been able to cast on the surface (though not on a location that's behind a wall or around a corner), then duck back below ground and control it just like how you've described.
Thanks for the good feedback, Chicken_Champ. It's nice to have another perspective. With the PHB piece, my line of thought was (and possibly a mistaken line of thought) that specific trumps general so since the spell doesn't say it targets anything, it wasn't applicable. However, I would prefer to believe that you are correct, otherwise it leaves the possibility for too many unclear scenarios for many spells.
I think that the most common understanding is that every spell has a target, even if its sometimes confusing to figure out what that target is (or if indeed it has more than one target, or more than one type of target, oof!). But I'll admit... that's a little more arguable than I thought it would be when I started writing this post!
Targets
A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic. A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).
"A typical spell" requires you pick a target... but do some not require that? You would think that such a vital piece of information would be found in the block of information at the top of the spell, but unfortunately, that didn't make the cut; instead we get target adjacent info like range and area of effect, but it can be a little ambiguous how to define "the target."
For spells with an area of effect, the area of effect section does require that "every area of effect has a point of origin."
Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
"Point of Origin"... well, we just came across that term up in the Targets section a moment ago, "A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect."
So we're not sure if every spell has a target, but we are sure that every area of effect has a point of origin, and points of origin are provided as examples of targets. When we look at Dawn specifically, the PHB's promise that a spell description will "tell you whether the spell targets... a point of origin for an area of effect" is revealed to have been a little misleading, however, because "point of origin" and "area of effect" don't appear even once in the description.
The light of dawn shines down on a location you specify within range. Until the spell ends, a 30-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder of bright light glimmers there. This light is sunlight.
When the cylinder appears, each creature in it must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 4d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw whenever it ends its turn in the cylinder.
If you’re within 60 feet of the cylinder, you can move it up to 60 feet as a bonus action on your turn.
But, "cylinder" does, and to loop back to the Areas of Effect section, a Cylinder is provided as an example of an area of effect. Therefor, its an area of effect spell, must have a point of origin for that area of effect, that point of origin is probably the "location you specify," and points of origin are indeed targets. Whew. Even if there's arguably some spell out there that doesn't have a target, Dawn isn't it.
This is not the "plain language" I was promised in 5E, I find it all very needlessly confusing. How hard would it have been to put "Target: A point within range" in the spell header, 5E?!
Thanks for the good feedback, Chicken_Champ. It's nice to have another perspective. With the PHB piece, my line of thought was (and possibly a mistaken line of thought) that specific trumps general so since the spell doesn't say it targets anything, it wasn't applicable. However, I would prefer to believe that you are correct, otherwise it leaves the possibility for too many unclear scenarios for many spells.
Area of effects target their point of origin (see area of effect in spellcasting). So you can cast it somewhere you can't see, as long as there is an unobstructed straight line to that point. This works on darkness, but not walls.
Thanks for the additional input. Between yours and Chicken's, I think it kind of nails it down for the casting. The movement after is still not 100% but the line of sight regardless of darkness would mean the casting has to have a clear path to the target. If that line of sight applies to movement, then what they did was not possible from a rules perspective.
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I am probably missing something simple here but I am struggling to find information and understand what the possibilities and limitations are for the Dawn spell. The spell description is here so you don't have to go look:
The light of dawn shines down on a location you specify within range. Until the spell ends, a 30-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder of bright light glimmers there. This light is sunlight. When the cylinder appears, each creature in it must make a Constitution saving throw, taking 4d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature must also make this saving throw whenever it ends its turn in the cylinder. If you’re within 60 feet of the cylinder, you can move it up to 60 feet as a bonus action on your turn.
From the description, you don't have to see the location to cast the spell. You can then move it if you are within range of the spell. It does not say that you have to see where it is moving. Does that mean that you can be standing outside of a building, cast the spell and then move it inside? Does it literally shine down? If that is the case, then it could be moved floor to floor as well (only hitting one floor at at time since it would be blocked by each floor) in a multi level structure. All this is assuming that you know the layout or have been inside so you can place it accordingly or at least in the ballpark. Also, it doesn't go around corners so inside it would be limited by the room it was in and things like tables or a bed etc. Correct?
The party I am DMing for is trying to liberate a small keep that was taken by a group of bandits. They scouted and then dug tunnels underneath the keep within about 10 feet of the surface. They then had a telepathic bond for the entire party while the sorcerer polymorphed into a hawk and flew around the keep as a spotter. The cleric cast Dawn from below the surface and then moved it up with the assistance of the sorcerer. The cleric proceeded to move it all around for the minute and then cast it again to repeat the same thing. With the way they dug the tunnels, they were able to move within 60 feet of most locations within the keep walls.
I could not find anything in the spell description that would directly counter what they were doing but after some thought, I wondered about the 10 feet of dirt in between the caster and the spell. Many spells can't go through 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.
What do you think? I spent about 20 minutes online looking at various things but could not find anything that addressed this directly.
You don't need line of sight for Dawn, which is a good thing... because casting it in darkness is kind of its best use case. But when it comes to casting it in a room that you're outside of on the other side of a door... the spell doesn't have language that prevents that, but the general spellcasting rules do, because line of effect is a thing.
From PHB Chapter 10 Spellcasting, Targets
The "Something" that Dawn targets is "a location you specify within range." While you can absolutely specify a location you don't see, if that location is on the other side of an obstruction (a poorly defined concept that nevertheless clearly includes solid walls, floors, etc.), then the spell works, but effect on the near side of that obstruction.
Now, does the same apply to using the Bonus Action to move the effect, once it's in place? Can you cast Dawn, leave the room, but then still use Bonus Actions to move it around within the room to locations you specify but don't see? I don't see why not, so long as you're still within 60 feet. There is no general prohibition on concentrating on spells through obstructions, or even influencing them, just on requiring line of effect when casting them. (*note... if you ignore section headings, I suppose you could ARGUE that line of effect is required whenever you target something, not just when you target something while part of [Tooltip Not Found]... if that's a preferred interpretation, then I'd still argue that "moving" the area effect of Dawn doesn't actually involve "targeting" a new point of origin, but that could certainly cause some issues for other spells with subsequent actions that "target" a creature or point).
In your example, being underground (the ground being a solid obstruction between the caster and the surface) means that the spell should have taken effect inside the tunnel, not on the surface. But if there was an opening to the surface, the caster should have been able to cast on the surface (though not on a location that's behind a wall or around a corner), then duck back below ground and control it just like how you've described.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thanks for the good feedback, Chicken_Champ. It's nice to have another perspective. With the PHB piece, my line of thought was (and possibly a mistaken line of thought) that specific trumps general so since the spell doesn't say it targets anything, it wasn't applicable. However, I would prefer to believe that you are correct, otherwise it leaves the possibility for too many unclear scenarios for many spells.
I think that the most common understanding is that every spell has a target, even if its sometimes confusing to figure out what that target is (or if indeed it has more than one target, or more than one type of target, oof!). But I'll admit... that's a little more arguable than I thought it would be when I started writing this post!
"A typical spell" requires you pick a target... but do some not require that? You would think that such a vital piece of information would be found in the block of information at the top of the spell, but unfortunately, that didn't make the cut; instead we get target adjacent info like range and area of effect, but it can be a little ambiguous how to define "the target."
For spells with an area of effect, the area of effect section does require that "every area of effect has a point of origin."
"Point of Origin"... well, we just came across that term up in the Targets section a moment ago, "A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect."
So we're not sure if every spell has a target, but we are sure that every area of effect has a point of origin, and points of origin are provided as examples of targets. When we look at Dawn specifically, the PHB's promise that a spell description will "tell you whether the spell targets... a point of origin for an area of effect" is revealed to have been a little misleading, however, because "point of origin" and "area of effect" don't appear even once in the description.
But, "cylinder" does, and to loop back to the Areas of Effect section, a Cylinder is provided as an example of an area of effect. Therefor, its an area of effect spell, must have a point of origin for that area of effect, that point of origin is probably the "location you specify," and points of origin are indeed targets. Whew. Even if there's arguably some spell out there that doesn't have a target, Dawn isn't it.
This is not the "plain language" I was promised in 5E, I find it all very needlessly confusing. How hard would it have been to put "Target: A point within range" in the spell header, 5E?!
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Area of effects target their point of origin (see area of effect in spellcasting). So you can cast it somewhere you can't see, as long as there is an unobstructed straight line to that point. This works on darkness, but not walls.
Thanks for the additional input. Between yours and Chicken's, I think it kind of nails it down for the casting. The movement after is still not 100% but the line of sight regardless of darkness would mean the casting has to have a clear path to the target. If that line of sight applies to movement, then what they did was not possible from a rules perspective.