I vehemently disagree. Disguise self is an illusion. It's similar to mirror image except that the illusion is maintained directly on top of the person, obscuring the true person from view (it is a disguise after all). No transformation is happening whatsoever any more than a person is transformed by mirror image, which is not at all.
What many of you are thinking of would be more of a transmutation spell rather than an illusion spell. Not only is this not a transmutation, but the spell description goes to great lengths to explain how the illusion doesn't hold up to physical inspection since the true person beneath the disguise remains unchanged.
If you crack open a PHB and look up Disguise Self you won't find the word 'shapechange' anywhere. The mechanical method of achieving the disguise is through an illusion that fails to hold up to physical inspection.
Even if the word 'transform' does not appear, 'shapechange' does, as the effect, yet. The person is disguised, by way of their visual appearance being shapechanged.
That is *how* it disguises the person, the mechanical method of achieving the disguise. And Truesight makes a distinction for that kind of method. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the rules are often that way.
That it can make you appear thinner than you actually are and someone trying to touch you touches where you really are, even though it appears they are not actually touching you indicates this is no mere 'worn disguise,' no mere mantle.
Shapechanger doesn't appear in Disguise Self RAW, only in D&D Beyond as a tag.
Proof it isn't shapechange your true form remains unchanged only the look of it change such that when you look 1 foot shorter and thinner, it fail to hold up to physical inspection as anyone who touches right by would feel your head or bump into you while seemingly still in midair, that's because your true form isn't changed, just lookchange more than anything.
If somehow you were turned literally completely transparent, with no other affect on your physiology, would that not be a visual change? In such a situation, there is literally no other change on your physiology. Would that still be your true form? Even though you are only like that due to the magic? You are still there to be bumped into. It is only vision that is affected.
Yes it would still be your true form, just transparent being invisible doesn't make you a shapechanger. The latter relates more to polymorphing or physically changing into multiple forms.
Well truesight specifically says that it can see you if you are invisible. It does not say that it can necessarily see doors hidden by illusions though -- it only says that it can detect the illusion itself. Same argument for a person hidden behind the illusion of disguise self -- a creature with truesight can know that it's looking at an illusion, but cannot necessarily see through it.
Except for the part where it's magic that transforms you, which means truesight allows the seer to perceive your true form. You're so hung up on the illusion detection part of truesight that literally no one else is talking about that you keep ignoring the rest of it.
Truesight only does what it says. For example, if a creature with truesight looked at a solid wall it cannot look through it as if it had some sort of superman-style x-ray vision. That's not part of the truesight ability. The creature can see that the wall is there but cannot see through or behind it. Similarly, if a person creates an opaque illusion of a wall and stands behind it, the creature with truesight cannot see that person. It can see the illusion of the wall and can know that it is indeed an illusion but it cannot see through it. That's basically what is going on with disguise self.
However, True Seeing, which includes truesight, reveals secret doors hidden by magic. One hidden by a wall of stone spell or similar magic would thus be revealed. True Seeing mentions granting Truesight as well as the ability to see into the ethereal, but seeing into the ethereal is a normal property of truesight, which implies that seeing secret doors hidden by magic is also a property of truesight.
No. You cannot draw this conclusion. Nothing of the sort is implied by the text of True Seeing. The spell of True Seeing is more powerful than the truesight ability. The target creature gains the truesight ability and it also gains the ability to notice secret doors (and only secret doors) hidden by magic and it also gains a potentially expanded range for seeing into the Ethereal Plane.
Neither the truesight ability nor the True Seeing spell allows the target creature to see through an illusion except for the one explicit case listed in True Seeing that allows the creature to notice secret doors hidden by magic. Why is this one thing listed? Who knows? Maybe certain types of electromagnetic radiation move differently through doorways than through solid walls and this can be detected by the target creature. Or make up your own lore for why the spell works this way -- but we should not try to extrapolate from a very specific listed ability and try to apply that to situations which were not listed by the spell.
And if truesight works as you claim, why would it reveal the true form of a shapeshifter? That shapeshifter is really in the form they are currently in just as surely as that illusory wall is really an illusion of a wall. The invisible person or object is really invisible, yet they, too are revealed.
The reason some illusions might still have some power is that some illusions are partly real.
The short answer for why truesight reveals the true form of a shapeshifter is because the spell says that it does this. I'm not quite sure what your point was with the rest of that statement but I'll mention that in the case of Disguise Self the illusion is quite explicitly NOT partly real and the disguised person is not really in that form at all. There is actually an entire paragraph in the spell description for Disguise Self that explains quite clearly that the illusion does not hold up to physical inspection. The reason that I keep bringing that up is that it makes this fundamentally different from shapeshifting. If you try to touch certain parts of this illusion, your hand grabs nothing but air. The disguised person is unchanged. It is merely disguised by an illusion. Neither truesight nor the True Seeing spell is able to perceive the true person behind this disguise.
But the invisible person is unchanged, they are just made invisible by the illusion (invisibility). If you grab where they are not, they are not there, but truesight does not change where they are, regardless. Even if it was a lycanthrope you are seeing, you only see their true form. They are still a transformed lycanthrope.
Truesight only cuts through visual aspects. This is why the insistance that it cannot see through visual aspects is so problematic.
It just still seems that you are insisting that the truesight ability can do things that it just doesn't say that it can do. Here is truesight:
Truesight
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.
This is like a bullet-point list of specific abilities all rolled into one:
-- Can see in normal and magical darkness.
-- Can see invisible creatures and objects.
-- Can detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them.
-- Can perceive the original form of a shapeshifter or a creature that is transformed by magic.
-- Can see into the ethereal plane.
The True Seeing spell adds:
-- Can notice secret doors hidden by magic.
This list does not include any statements resembling "can see through opaque illusions" or "can see creatures hidden behind illusions". The ability just does not say that it can do this.
As for your comments, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the invisible condition. Truesight specifically says that it can see invisible creatures and objects -- that is not in dispute. I'm not sure what you meant by "truesight does not change where they are" -- I don't think that anyone was suggesting this? I'm not sure about the exact mechanics behind lycanthropy in this game but if they are shapeshifting or are transformed by magic then yes, truesight will perceive the original form as stated in the spell description.
As for the statement "truesight only cuts through visual aspects" -- whether or not that's a true statement is probably open to interpretation but is also pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, truesight provides a list of very specific abilities -- see the bulleted list above.
Ok, I suppose that's fine. So the main argument is that Disguise Self is transforming the target by magic? In the description for Disguise Self we have:
You make yourself . . . look different . . . You can seem [different] and can appear [different] . . . the illusion is up to you.
The changes wrought by this spell fail to hold up to physical inspection. For example, if you use this spell to add a hat to your outfit, objects pass through the hat, and anyone who touches it would feel nothing or would feel your head and hair. If you use this spell to appear thinner than you are, the hand of someone who reaches out to touch you would bump into you while it was seemingly still in midair.
. . . you are disguised . . .
I'm just really having trouble seeing how this description can be interpreted to mean that the target is transformed by magic. I mean, the spell itself gives an example that you could literally only be adding a hat to your outfit that isn't really there when you cast this spell. Would making myself look like I'm wearing a hat really be transforming myself by magic? I just don't get that so I agree that we'll have to disagree on that if that's the argument.
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I vehemently disagree. Disguise self is an illusion. It's similar to mirror image except that the illusion is maintained directly on top of the person, obscuring the true person from view (it is a disguise after all). No transformation is happening whatsoever any more than a person is transformed by mirror image, which is not at all.
What many of you are thinking of would be more of a transmutation spell rather than an illusion spell. Not only is this not a transmutation, but the spell description goes to great lengths to explain how the illusion doesn't hold up to physical inspection since the true person beneath the disguise remains unchanged.
If you crack open a PHB and look up Disguise Self you won't find the word 'shapechange' anywhere. The mechanical method of achieving the disguise is through an illusion that fails to hold up to physical inspection.
Shapechanger doesn't appear in Disguise Self RAW, only in D&D Beyond as a tag.
Proof it isn't shapechange your true form remains unchanged only the look of it change such that when you look 1 foot shorter and thinner, it fail to hold up to physical inspection as anyone who touches right by would feel your head or bump into you while seemingly still in midair, that's because your true form isn't changed, just lookchange more than anything.
Yes it would still be your true form, just transparent being invisible doesn't make you a shapechanger. The latter relates more to polymorphing or physically changing into multiple forms.
Well truesight specifically says that it can see you if you are invisible. It does not say that it can necessarily see doors hidden by illusions though -- it only says that it can detect the illusion itself. Same argument for a person hidden behind the illusion of disguise self -- a creature with truesight can know that it's looking at an illusion, but cannot necessarily see through it.
Except for the part where it's magic that transforms you, which means truesight allows the seer to perceive your true form. You're so hung up on the illusion detection part of truesight that literally no one else is talking about that you keep ignoring the rest of it.
Truesight only does what it says. For example, if a creature with truesight looked at a solid wall it cannot look through it as if it had some sort of superman-style x-ray vision. That's not part of the truesight ability. The creature can see that the wall is there but cannot see through or behind it. Similarly, if a person creates an opaque illusion of a wall and stands behind it, the creature with truesight cannot see that person. It can see the illusion of the wall and can know that it is indeed an illusion but it cannot see through it. That's basically what is going on with disguise self.
No. You cannot draw this conclusion. Nothing of the sort is implied by the text of True Seeing. The spell of True Seeing is more powerful than the truesight ability. The target creature gains the truesight ability and it also gains the ability to notice secret doors (and only secret doors) hidden by magic and it also gains a potentially expanded range for seeing into the Ethereal Plane.
Neither the truesight ability nor the True Seeing spell allows the target creature to see through an illusion except for the one explicit case listed in True Seeing that allows the creature to notice secret doors hidden by magic. Why is this one thing listed? Who knows? Maybe certain types of electromagnetic radiation move differently through doorways than through solid walls and this can be detected by the target creature. Or make up your own lore for why the spell works this way -- but we should not try to extrapolate from a very specific listed ability and try to apply that to situations which were not listed by the spell.
The short answer for why truesight reveals the true form of a shapeshifter is because the spell says that it does this. I'm not quite sure what your point was with the rest of that statement but I'll mention that in the case of Disguise Self the illusion is quite explicitly NOT partly real and the disguised person is not really in that form at all. There is actually an entire paragraph in the spell description for Disguise Self that explains quite clearly that the illusion does not hold up to physical inspection. The reason that I keep bringing that up is that it makes this fundamentally different from shapeshifting. If you try to touch certain parts of this illusion, your hand grabs nothing but air. The disguised person is unchanged. It is merely disguised by an illusion. Neither truesight nor the True Seeing spell is able to perceive the true person behind this disguise.
It just still seems that you are insisting that the truesight ability can do things that it just doesn't say that it can do. Here is truesight:
This is like a bullet-point list of specific abilities all rolled into one:
-- Can see in normal and magical darkness.
-- Can see invisible creatures and objects.
-- Can detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them.
-- Can perceive the original form of a shapeshifter or a creature that is transformed by magic.
-- Can see into the ethereal plane.
The True Seeing spell adds:
-- Can notice secret doors hidden by magic.
This list does not include any statements resembling "can see through opaque illusions" or "can see creatures hidden behind illusions". The ability just does not say that it can do this.
As for your comments, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the invisible condition. Truesight specifically says that it can see invisible creatures and objects -- that is not in dispute. I'm not sure what you meant by "truesight does not change where they are" -- I don't think that anyone was suggesting this? I'm not sure about the exact mechanics behind lycanthropy in this game but if they are shapeshifting or are transformed by magic then yes, truesight will perceive the original form as stated in the spell description.
As for the statement "truesight only cuts through visual aspects" -- whether or not that's a true statement is probably open to interpretation but is also pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, truesight provides a list of very specific abilities -- see the bulleted list above.
Ok, I suppose that's fine. So the main argument is that Disguise Self is transforming the target by magic? In the description for Disguise Self we have:
I'm just really having trouble seeing how this description can be interpreted to mean that the target is transformed by magic. I mean, the spell itself gives an example that you could literally only be adding a hat to your outfit that isn't really there when you cast this spell. Would making myself look like I'm wearing a hat really be transforming myself by magic? I just don't get that so I agree that we'll have to disagree on that if that's the argument.