Last game session there was a sticking point where the GM and I disagreed. At the time I accepted his ruling, but I am now researching the issue prior to the next session.
The confusion is about speed, movement, and whether or not they are the same thing.
It is my understanding that speed is not movement, but instead speed determines available movement. The DM was stating that if I dashed on the turn that my "speed" would be doubled, and therefore standing from prone would take twice as much movement than had I not dashed. I stated that my understanding is that speed determines movement available but that it is not movement. I think that I am correct, but it has devolved into a discussion about semantics. To me it seems in the rules as written that speed and movement are not the same things.
Your DM is wrong (assuming they are attempting to play RAW). They are confusing SPEED which is the amount of movement that a creature is allowed to use on their turn and MOVEMENT which is how much movement a creature has on their turn.
Standing up from prone costs 1/2 of a creatures SPEED, not its movement.
"You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can't stand up if you don't have enough movement left or if your speed is 0."
The DASH actions increases a creatures movement on their turn by an amount equal to their SPEED.
"DASH
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash."
So in your case, standing from prone costs 1/2 the characters speed - for a typical creature with a 30 speed this is 15' of movement. After they have stood up, they have 15' of movement remaining. If they choose to take the dash action this would become 45' of movement since they add their speed to the total available movement.
Standing up from prone costs 1/2 of a creatures SPEED, not its movement.
Correction: standing up from prone costs movement equal to half of a creature's speed; if standing up cost speed, it would in fact change the effects of Dash. However, since both standing up and dash cost/grant movement based on speed, but do not adjust speed, they're simply added, and with 30' of speed it costs you 15' to stand up, then you gain 30' from dash, total 45'.
It's tough to avoid falling into paraphrases which get it a little wrong here or there, but he had the right conclusion... but yeah, good catch.
I've got a dillema for you all though... or maybe it isn't a dilemma, so much as just something to keep in mind.
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. ... If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
Would you all be in agreement that, essentially, creatures with multiple speeds representing these different "modes of movement" start their turn with movement points equal to those various speeds hanging out in a few different pools, yes? If you've got a Walk 30 and a Fly 60, you start your turn with 30 movement in your Walk pool, and 60 movement in your Fly pool.
Ordinarily, whatever pool you start moving with, you tick points out of that pool... and then if you change to a new movement mode, it's at that point ("whenever you switch...") that the number of points you've expended in another pool get deducted from your new pool. Yes? Starting Walking until you've expended 15 of your 30 walk movement, decide to start flying.... you instantly subtract 15 from your 60 fly movement pool, and are left with 45 fly movement left at your disposal, and 15 walk movement in the other pool.
That's fine... but if you're starting that turn Prone, standing up costs movement equal to half of "your speed" right then and there. That seems problematic to me... because standing from Prone doesn't itself answer whether you're walking, flying, swimming, or climbing, does it? If it costs half of every pool, then that's not how the movement pool math is supposed to work, it's not clear what happens if you spend 15 walk and 30 fly movement at the start of your turn simultaneously, before taking a step or a flap in any direction... just treat those pools as 15 and 30 and go about your day? Treat it as the larger number (30), meaning you can't walk at all that turn? Just take it out of Walk by default instead of out of Fly/Swim/Climb (which would mean that a Walk 60 Fly 30 character can't fly at all on any turn they stand from Prone)?
It just feels like the standing from Prone movement cost works slightly differently from normal movement costs, in a way that leaves some gray area here. How far would you say that a creature can walk, and how far can they fly, in the following scenarios if they stand up from Prone?
Walk 60, Fly 30
Walk 30, Fly 30
Walk 30, Fly 60
Bonus round: a creature with Walk 10/Swim 60 walks 10, starts to swim another 20 feet (30 swim remaining), then falls Prone in the water. They have 30 swim remaining, half of their Swim speed, but 0 walk remaining... can they "stand up" from Prone in the water with that 30 swim speed, or no?
It's tough to avoid falling into paraphrases which get it a little wrong here or there, but he had the right conclusion... but yeah, good catch.
I've got a dillema for you all though... or maybe it isn't a dilemma, so much as just something to keep in mind.
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. ... If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
Would you all be in agreement that, essentially, creatures with multiple speeds representing these different "modes of movement" start their turn with movement points equal to those various speeds hanging out in a few different pools, yes? If you've got a Walk 30 and a Fly 60, you start your turn with 30 movement in your Walk pool, and 60 movement in your Fly pool.
Nope. You have only a single Movement pool that changes size when you change mode. Thus, the answers to your questions are:
It costs you half your current speed to stand up. This is probably your walk speed, unless you have Hover and can fly when prone. Thus, allowable distance is walk 30/fly 0.
Same; distance is walk 15/fly 15.
Same; distance is walk 15/fly 45.
Yes, current speed is 60 of which they've used 30, so they can use 30 to stand up.
I'm not claiming that this makes much sense, but it's what the rules say.
So if you have a Walk 10/Swim 60, and you Dash while on land, you now have a single movement pool of 20? You walk 20 feet towards the ocean and hop in... 40 swim left? or 100 swim left?
Or.... You have a Walk 60/Fly 30, and start Prone on the ground. You stand up, and now have a single movement pool of 30. You then Dash, and have a single movement pool of 90. Can you Fly 0 feet, 30 feet, or 60 feet?
So if you have a Walk 10/Swim 60, and you Dash while on land, you now have a single movement pool of 20? You walk 20 feet towards the ocean and hop in... 40 swim left? or 100 swim left?
Dash explicitly says it changes retroactively if your speed changes, so 100.
I can come on board with this. I always thought the bucket system was a necessary metaphor for me to understand subtracting one movement mode from the next... because I was so invested in the idea that standing from Prone is not itself Walking, Swimming, or Flying (because, it doesn't trigger OAs or other on-movement effects), and thus couldn't pick a single speed to use. Just ruling that you stand with Walk when you're on the ground, Swim (or Walk if no Swim speed) in the water, Climb (or Walk if no Climb speed) on a cliff (if its even possible to be Prone without falling while climbing...), or Fly in the air makes it a lot simpler and doesn't require me to screw around with quite as many houserules to restate things with a bucket system.
You win! However, the consequence is that a creature may be able to stand up from Prone more than once (maybe even more than twice) on a single turn, if their movement speeds and circumstances align correctly. That's pretty novel.
Personally, I would have written movement rules differently with a single speed and multiple moment types as ratios. This would have made changing speeds and getting up consistent. For example:
A speed of 60 feet, a fly ratio of 1:1, and a walking ratio of 1:2 roughly equated to 60 flying and 30 walk in 5e. But you could fly 30 feet, and still have 30 movement left which you can use to walk 15 feet. If you get up from prone, it costs 30 movement and you can still walk 15 feet, or fly 30 feet, or fly 20 feet and walk 5 feet, etc.
This just makes sense to me but is also slightly more complicated, feel free to use it as a house rule. Dash works the same, but increased movement features are different and would have needed to be written and balanced differently (things that change a specific speed would need to adjust ratio instead, and things that change all speeds would adjust the base speed resulting in the effect on individual speeds being different).
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Hello,
Last game session there was a sticking point where the GM and I disagreed. At the time I accepted his ruling, but I am now researching the issue prior to the next session.
The confusion is about speed, movement, and whether or not they are the same thing.
It is my understanding that speed is not movement, but instead speed determines available movement. The DM was stating that if I dashed on the turn that my "speed" would be doubled, and therefore standing from prone would take twice as much movement than had I not dashed. I stated that my understanding is that speed determines movement available but that it is not movement. I think that I am correct, but it has devolved into a discussion about semantics. To me it seems in the rules as written that speed and movement are not the same things.
thanks to y'all for any advice on this.
Your DM is wrong (assuming they are attempting to play RAW). They are confusing SPEED which is the amount of movement that a creature is allowed to use on their turn and MOVEMENT which is how much movement a creature has on their turn.
Standing up from prone costs 1/2 of a creatures SPEED, not its movement.
"You can drop prone without using any of your speed. Standing up takes more effort; doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to stand up. You can't stand up if you don't have enough movement left or if your speed is 0."
The DASH actions increases a creatures movement on their turn by an amount equal to their SPEED.
"DASH
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash."
So in your case, standing from prone costs 1/2 the characters speed - for a typical creature with a 30 speed this is 15' of movement. After they have stood up, they have 15' of movement remaining. If they choose to take the dash action this would become 45' of movement since they add their speed to the total available movement.
I appreciate the quick response. Thank you
Agreed.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I like the way that's worded. You aren't running twice as fast when you take the dash action, you're running twice as long.
It ain't Speed * 2, it's Speed + Speed
Correction: standing up from prone costs movement equal to half of a creature's speed; if standing up cost speed, it would in fact change the effects of Dash. However, since both standing up and dash cost/grant movement based on speed, but do not adjust speed, they're simply added, and with 30' of speed it costs you 15' to stand up, then you gain 30' from dash, total 45'.
It's tough to avoid falling into paraphrases which get it a little wrong here or there, but he had the right conclusion... but yeah, good catch.
I've got a dillema for you all though... or maybe it isn't a dilemma, so much as just something to keep in mind.
Would you all be in agreement that, essentially, creatures with multiple speeds representing these different "modes of movement" start their turn with movement points equal to those various speeds hanging out in a few different pools, yes? If you've got a Walk 30 and a Fly 60, you start your turn with 30 movement in your Walk pool, and 60 movement in your Fly pool.
Ordinarily, whatever pool you start moving with, you tick points out of that pool... and then if you change to a new movement mode, it's at that point ("whenever you switch...") that the number of points you've expended in another pool get deducted from your new pool. Yes? Starting Walking until you've expended 15 of your 30 walk movement, decide to start flying.... you instantly subtract 15 from your 60 fly movement pool, and are left with 45 fly movement left at your disposal, and 15 walk movement in the other pool.
That's fine... but if you're starting that turn Prone, standing up costs movement equal to half of "your speed" right then and there. That seems problematic to me... because standing from Prone doesn't itself answer whether you're walking, flying, swimming, or climbing, does it? If it costs half of every pool, then that's not how the movement pool math is supposed to work, it's not clear what happens if you spend 15 walk and 30 fly movement at the start of your turn simultaneously, before taking a step or a flap in any direction... just treat those pools as 15 and 30 and go about your day? Treat it as the larger number (30), meaning you can't walk at all that turn? Just take it out of Walk by default instead of out of Fly/Swim/Climb (which would mean that a Walk 60 Fly 30 character can't fly at all on any turn they stand from Prone)?
It just feels like the standing from Prone movement cost works slightly differently from normal movement costs, in a way that leaves some gray area here. How far would you say that a creature can walk, and how far can they fly, in the following scenarios if they stand up from Prone?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Nope. You have only a single Movement pool that changes size when you change mode. Thus, the answers to your questions are:
I'm not claiming that this makes much sense, but it's what the rules say.
Hmmmm.
So if you have a Walk 10/Swim 60, and you Dash while on land, you now have a single movement pool of 20? You walk 20 feet towards the ocean and hop in... 40 swim left? or 100 swim left?
Or.... You have a Walk 60/Fly 30, and start Prone on the ground. You stand up, and now have a single movement pool of 30. You then Dash, and have a single movement pool of 90. Can you Fly 0 feet, 30 feet, or 60 feet?
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Dash explicitly says it changes retroactively if your speed changes, so 100.
I can come on board with this. I always thought the bucket system was a necessary metaphor for me to understand subtracting one movement mode from the next... because I was so invested in the idea that standing from Prone is not itself Walking, Swimming, or Flying (because, it doesn't trigger OAs or other on-movement effects), and thus couldn't pick a single speed to use. Just ruling that you stand with Walk when you're on the ground, Swim (or Walk if no Swim speed) in the water, Climb (or Walk if no Climb speed) on a cliff (if its even possible to be Prone without falling while climbing...), or Fly in the air makes it a lot simpler and doesn't require me to screw around with quite as many houserules to restate things with a bucket system.
You win! However, the consequence is that a creature may be able to stand up from Prone more than once (maybe even more than twice) on a single turn, if their movement speeds and circumstances align correctly. That's pretty novel.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Personally, I would have written movement rules differently with a single speed and multiple moment types as ratios. This would have made changing speeds and getting up consistent. For example:
A speed of 60 feet, a fly ratio of 1:1, and a walking ratio of 1:2 roughly equated to 60 flying and 30 walk in 5e. But you could fly 30 feet, and still have 30 movement left which you can use to walk 15 feet. If you get up from prone, it costs 30 movement and you can still walk 15 feet, or fly 30 feet, or fly 20 feet and walk 5 feet, etc.
This just makes sense to me but is also slightly more complicated, feel free to use it as a house rule. Dash works the same, but increased movement features are different and would have needed to be written and balanced differently (things that change a specific speed would need to adjust ratio instead, and things that change all speeds would adjust the base speed resulting in the effect on individual speeds being different).