When does a victim of charm person or monster NOT get advantage to its saving throw? Presumably, casting either spell on an enemy is hostile act that should trigger initiative. This in turn causes everyone to be aware that a fight has started. The spell clearly states "You attempt to charm a creature you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and it does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it."
I really like the flavor of these spells, specially requiring the enchanter to convince his/her victim that they are doing the right thing through some form of RP. But granting advantage against your spell every time you cast it really sucks!
Any suggestions on how to use the spells outside of combat?
Generally, "fighting" constitutes attempts to cause physical or mental harm, or otherwise engage in an adversarial life-threatening "tug-of-war". Enchantment spells can be a part of that, but often aren't when cast outside of combat.
If you're casting it as a precursor to a fight, then it might trigger initiative, but wouldn't give disadvantage on the initial saving throw because no one had attempted to harm anyone else yet.
If you're just casting it in a social situation to make someone agreeable, then there was no intention or expectation of causing any form of damage, and thus, it's not fighting, but rather "manipulation".
Edit: Even mid-fight, if your party calls for a truce to discuss terms, your party has temporarily stopped fighting, and Charm Person could potentially be cast without disadvantage. However, that depends on the DM and the specific circumstances.
When does a victim of charm person or monster NOT get advantage to its saving throw? Presumably, casting either spell on an enemy is hostile act that should trigger initiative. This in turn causes everyone to be aware that a fight has started. The spell clearly states "You attempt to charm a creature you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and it does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it."
I really like the flavor of these spells, specially requiring the enchanter to convince his/her victim that they are doing the right thing through some form of RP. But granting advantage against your spell every time you cast it really sucks!
Any suggestions on how to use the spells outside of combat?
Not necessarily how spells work, but I don't want to duck your question, since I don't know what rules your DM is using. I go into detail below, but with only the PHB you can just cast Charm Person and no-one knows you've cast it without a special rule (Counterspell in those circumstances provides such a special rule, as all abilities with a trigger give you the magical ability to detect the trigger); with Xanathar's added but not fixed, you need to be a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell (which works, as Charm Person and Charm Humanoid are V,S - no M).
The RAW here is tricky, but it comes down to this: no-one, not anyone, not even you, automatically recognizes a spell is being cast, even when they can perceive the components. I don't recommend using only the PHB rules for this, but:
Per the PHB, a spell has to have a noticeable effect for it to be noticed as a spell. That's very stupid, since you were just waving your arms around and uttering gibberish. Charm Person has no noticeable effect, so just by the PHB, no one witnessing you cast Charm Person knows you cast it.
I highly recommend you incorporate Xanathar's, and then houserule it make it stop being absurd.
Xanathar's has much more to say on the topic.
If your DM is using these rules, anyone witnessing any one component of the spell immediately knows you are casting a spell. This is incredibly stupid, because it's possible to reduce a spell to only have an M component, and how the hell does someone know you're casting a spell just because you're stroking the staff you're always stroking? In any case, Charm X has no M component, so I'll cover below how this lets you solve the problem.
This means even if you cast in darkness, anyone hearing Charm X's V component recognizes the V component as a spell component, no check. I have a recommended house rule below if your DM wants this to be less absurd. Note that this doesn't mean they know a spell is being cast on them, just that a spell is being cast at all.
Furthermore, a witness needs to pass a DC 16 Intelligence (Arcana) check to recognize Charm Person as Charm Person, and the DC is 19 for Charm Monster (it's 15 + spell level). They have advantage on the check if the spell was "cast as a class spell" and the witness is a member of that class, which is generally not even defined - for example, a Warlock can use Fey Touched to pick up Hex. When they cast it, is it being "cast as a class spell"? In addition, any one component is sufficient to identify a spell.
Recommended house rule 1: witnesses have advantage to identify any spell they have on their class spell lists and any spell they can cast, provided they need at least one component to do so in general.
Recommended house rule 2: Set a scaling DC for identifying a spell, as follows:
+5 to the DC for each "missing" component, so if you hear someone casting Charm Person but don't see them, the DC to identify is 20, as you failed to perceive the S component. This is only for the base spell - ignore the M component Artificers add to all spells.
If a caster's Passive Performance beats the witness's Passive Insight (Hearing), the V component counts as missing - you still sound magical, but you added too much showmanship to make out the relevant sounds.
If a caster's Passive Sleight of Hand beats the witness's Passive Perception (Vision), the S component counts as missing, as well as any M component satisfied by a component pouch or focus. You still look magical, but your hands moved too quickly to make out the relevant movements.
Note that even with all components missing due to the above rules, using them still lets the target roll to identify - you're making the check harder, not impossible.
The Subtle Spell metamagic also lets the caster "hide" M components satisfied by a component pouch or focus - they still need a component pouch or focus on their person, but they don't need to access it. Note that with Subtle Spell employed, unless there's still an M component with a cost to witness, the check can't even be made - it's impossible to know the spell has been cast, let alone identify it.
Set a base DC of 5+spell level (so the identify difficulty minus 10) to realize that a spell is being cast at all, modified for missing components as appropriate. That way it's at least not automatic that all creatures, regardless of intelligence, education, etc automatically recognize all spellcasting as spellcasting.
You're only in combat if the DM says that you're in combat. That's as simple as it can be. Casting a spell, even a harmful one, doesn't automatically start a combat.
Thanks to everyone, these are all good things to consider. Perhaps I'm being too rigid with RAW.
where I get hung up is when I consider the equivalent in a physical fight. So, if my rogue is hiding in the shadows and about to throw a dagger at an unsuspecting goblin. Even if I have surprise, everyone rolls for initiative both the rogue and goblin included. Although I haven't thrown a dagger yet, my intent triggered initiative. Once initiative is rolled, the fight has started. I don't see a difference between throwing a dagger and casting charm person on a victim. Both are harmful effects. Hell, one might argue being charmed is more dangerous than taking a knife in the back.
Thanks to everyone, these are all good things to consider. Perhaps I'm being too rigid with RAW.
where I get hung up is when I consider the equivalent in a physical fight. So, if my rogue is hiding in the shadows and about to throw a dagger at an unsuspecting goblin. Even if I have surprise, everyone rolls for initiative both the rogue and goblin included. Although I haven't thrown a dagger yet, my intent triggered initiative. Once initiative is rolled, the fight has started. I don't see a difference between throwing a dagger and casting charm person on a victim. Both are harmful effects. Hell, one might argue being charmed is more dangerous than taking a knife in the back.
OK, but even rolling initiative doesn't mean an active fight has started. In theory you could roll initiative and everyone could just use their actions to run around and do non-fighty things.
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thanks to everyone, these are all good things to consider. Perhaps I'm being too rigid with RAW.
where I get hung up is when I consider the equivalent in a physical fight. So, if my rogue is hiding in the shadows and about to throw a dagger at an unsuspecting goblin. Even if I have surprise, everyone rolls for initiative both the rogue and goblin included. Although I haven't thrown a dagger yet, my intent triggered initiative. Once initiative is rolled, the fight has started. I don't see a difference between throwing a dagger and casting charm person on a victim. Both are harmful effects. Hell, one might argue being charmed is more dangerous than taking a knife in the back.
That's true, but you're not actually fighting until one of you has attempted to do something to the other. Initiative being rolled is purely to ensure you have an initiative count to ensure the game flows as it should - it being rolled doesn't mean you're in combat. A good DM will have you roll initiative in situations where they're merely concerned combat might start.
Thanks to everyone, these are all good things to consider. Perhaps I'm being too rigid with RAW.
where I get hung up is when I consider the equivalent in a physical fight. So, if my rogue is hiding in the shadows and about to throw a dagger at an unsuspecting goblin. Even if I have surprise, everyone rolls for initiative both the rogue and goblin included. Although I haven't thrown a dagger yet, my intent triggered initiative. Once initiative is rolled, the fight has started. I don't see a difference between throwing a dagger and casting charm person on a victim. Both are harmful effects. Hell, one might argue being charmed is more dangerous than taking a knife in the back.
OK, but even rolling initiative doesn't mean an active fight has started. In theory you could roll initiative and everyone could just use their actions to run around and do non-fighty things.
Indeed, the only time I've ever cast charm person was after initiative was rolled, but since I got to go first it was treated as if we weren't fighting the target at the time.
Yeah I'm with all the people saying that casting a spell does not automatically mean fighting. What next, you roll initiative when you cast heal wounds on an injured guard?
You roll initiative when a fight is about to start, but it you aren't "fighting" until after you've done something hostile.
Near as I can figure it, what they mean by "fighting" is doing anything at all to the caster that involves rolling dice. A Persuasion check would qualify, for example. Getting caught and taking damage in an Area of Effect spell that wasn't targeted at the caster, but did damage to them qualifies. If nobody messes with the caster, even in the middle of a melee, you don't get Advantage.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
"Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component." It doesn't say what volume. You might or might not be able to hear it. Xanthar's says it is possible and that you could use it to know what spell. How would that work? Passive Perception based on how loud the DM requires the spell to be voiced. There is a thing some DM screens have that gives the ranges at which things are audible.
Somatic (S)
"Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures." Clearly here you can notice. Passive Perception, visual ranges probably are not relevant, but the same chart has the rules. Visibility rules would apply
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So then, if you notice the spell passively, you aren't rolling any dice in the technical sense and you didn't spend an action. I would rule that you get Advantage. That's not RAW, so it's just my idea here. I think of it as a case were the dice might have been rolled but were not needed, so dice are still kind of involved.
An Active check would of course follow all the rules for initiative, and dice are clearly involved in that.
I don't see how a material component would make a difference, you have to have it, and you have to touch it, but if it's inside a component pouch all you have to be doing is touching the outside of the pouch, so if you didn't detect the other components, say because a Sorcerer or something cast it with Subtle Spell, you'd get zapped without any warning at all. No advantage for you.
I think that's all correct, but I have a bad track record in this forum, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
No problem Geann, I'm trying to muddle through this myself.
I think you may have misread my original post. It was concerning granting advantage (to the victim) on saving throws after casting charm person or monster. It seems difficult to get around this.
This is what I understand from all the posts so far...
My party meets an ogre on the field battle. We roll initiative to determine the sequence. My enchanter wants to cast charm monster without granting advantage on the saving throw. If he beats everyone's initiative, then there's no problem. Although initiative was rolled, "fighting" doesn't commence until someone fires the first shot. So the ogre is not yet "fighting". However, if my ranger companion fires an arrow before me or the ogre beats my initiative then ogre has advantage vs charm monster the rest of the fight.
Alternately, you can convince a kind and generous DM that you don't intend to use charm monster in a harmful way and then RP through the scenario. Perhaps you intend to use charm monster to diffuse the situation without violence. I still think casting the spell at a creature is a hostile act. Obviously casting a spell on yourself (like mage armor) is not a hostile act directed at another creature and therefore does not provoke initiative.
Either way, this seems like a very tricky spell to use correctly. It uses up a fourth level spell slot no less :(
It is hard to use Charm Monster during a fight. If anything involving dice gets used on the target before you cast, they get Advantage on their save because they are "fighting" and if not, and they notice you casting, they get Advantage too. I don't know though, Ogres have a Passive Perception of 8, so they aren't all that likely to notice you casting, and if the Ranger didn't actually hit with the arrow, you'd be fine, they wouldn't have Advantage.
That's the kind of thing where you have to work with your group. If you tell people you're going to use Charm Monster, the ones who got Initiative higher than you can hold their actions and wait to see what happens when you cast, and then all you have to deal with is how perceptive your target is.
As for convincing your target that your intentions are benign, that would be a Persuasion check, which would involve dice, but I'd probably allow you to try, and your target would get to make a passive check against Insight, which is based on Wisdom. An Ogre at least, has a 7 there. It's just a little less Insightful than it is perceptive. It might well work.
Just use Charm Person whenever you think a very convincing argument could work.
Sitting around a negotiation table, check.
Against an orc you just beaned with a cudgel, maybe not.
Otherwise, Advantage is comparable to a +5 bonus, so target enemies with weaker Wisdom Saving Throws, and try to combine it with Bane, Bestow Curse, or other such effects.
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When does a victim of charm person or monster NOT get advantage to its saving throw? Presumably, casting either spell on an enemy is hostile act that should trigger initiative. This in turn causes everyone to be aware that a fight has started. The spell clearly states "You attempt to charm a creature you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and it does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it."
I really like the flavor of these spells, specially requiring the enchanter to convince his/her victim that they are doing the right thing through some form of RP. But granting advantage against your spell every time you cast it really sucks!
Any suggestions on how to use the spells outside of combat?
Generally, "fighting" constitutes attempts to cause physical or mental harm, or otherwise engage in an adversarial life-threatening "tug-of-war". Enchantment spells can be a part of that, but often aren't when cast outside of combat.
If you're casting it as a precursor to a fight, then it might trigger initiative, but wouldn't give disadvantage on the initial saving throw because no one had attempted to harm anyone else yet.
If you're just casting it in a social situation to make someone agreeable, then there was no intention or expectation of causing any form of damage, and thus, it's not fighting, but rather "manipulation".
Edit: Even mid-fight, if your party calls for a truce to discuss terms, your party has temporarily stopped fighting, and Charm Person could potentially be cast without disadvantage. However, that depends on the DM and the specific circumstances.
Subtle Spell metamagic also doesn't hurt.
Not necessarily how spells work, but I don't want to duck your question, since I don't know what rules your DM is using. I go into detail below, but with only the PHB you can just cast Charm Person and no-one knows you've cast it without a special rule (Counterspell in those circumstances provides such a special rule, as all abilities with a trigger give you the magical ability to detect the trigger); with Xanathar's added but not fixed, you need to be a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell (which works, as Charm Person and Charm Humanoid are V,S - no M).
You're only in combat if the DM says that you're in combat. That's as simple as it can be. Casting a spell, even a harmful one, doesn't automatically start a combat.
Thanks to everyone, these are all good things to consider. Perhaps I'm being too rigid with RAW.
where I get hung up is when I consider the equivalent in a physical fight. So, if my rogue is hiding in the shadows and about to throw a dagger at an unsuspecting goblin. Even if I have surprise, everyone rolls for initiative both the rogue and goblin included. Although I haven't thrown a dagger yet, my intent triggered initiative. Once initiative is rolled, the fight has started. I don't see a difference between throwing a dagger and casting charm person on a victim. Both are harmful effects. Hell, one might argue being charmed is more dangerous than taking a knife in the back.
OK, but even rolling initiative doesn't mean an active fight has started. In theory you could roll initiative and everyone could just use their actions to run around and do non-fighty things.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That's true, but you're not actually fighting until one of you has attempted to do something to the other. Initiative being rolled is purely to ensure you have an initiative count to ensure the game flows as it should - it being rolled doesn't mean you're in combat. A good DM will have you roll initiative in situations where they're merely concerned combat might start.
Indeed, the only time I've ever cast charm person was after initiative was rolled, but since I got to go first it was treated as if we weren't fighting the target at the time.
Yeah I'm with all the people saying that casting a spell does not automatically mean fighting. What next, you roll initiative when you cast heal wounds on an injured guard?
You roll initiative when a fight is about to start, but it you aren't "fighting" until after you've done something hostile.
Near as I can figure it, what they mean by "fighting" is doing anything at all to the caster that involves rolling dice. A Persuasion check would qualify, for example. Getting caught and taking damage in an Area of Effect spell that wasn't targeted at the caster, but did damage to them qualifies. If nobody messes with the caster, even in the middle of a melee, you don't get Advantage.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
"Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component." It doesn't say what volume. You might or might not be able to hear it. Xanthar's says it is possible and that you could use it to know what spell. How would that work? Passive Perception based on how loud the DM requires the spell to be voiced. There is a thing some DM screens have that gives the ranges at which things are audible.
Somatic (S)
"Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures." Clearly here you can notice. Passive Perception, visual ranges probably are not relevant, but the same chart has the rules. Visibility rules would apply
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
So then, if you notice the spell passively, you aren't rolling any dice in the technical sense and you didn't spend an action. I would rule that you get Advantage. That's not RAW, so it's just my idea here. I think of it as a case were the dice might have been rolled but were not needed, so dice are still kind of involved.
An Active check would of course follow all the rules for initiative, and dice are clearly involved in that.
I don't see how a material component would make a difference, you have to have it, and you have to touch it, but if it's inside a component pouch all you have to be doing is touching the outside of the pouch, so if you didn't detect the other components, say because a Sorcerer or something cast it with Subtle Spell, you'd get zapped without any warning at all. No advantage for you.
I think that's all correct, but I have a bad track record in this forum, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
<Insert clever signature here>
No problem Geann, I'm trying to muddle through this myself.
I think you may have misread my original post. It was concerning granting advantage (to the victim) on saving throws after casting charm person or monster. It seems difficult to get around this.
This is what I understand from all the posts so far...
My party meets an ogre on the field battle. We roll initiative to determine the sequence. My enchanter wants to cast charm monster without granting advantage on the saving throw. If he beats everyone's initiative, then there's no problem. Although initiative was rolled, "fighting" doesn't commence until someone fires the first shot. So the ogre is not yet "fighting". However, if my ranger companion fires an arrow before me or the ogre beats my initiative then ogre has advantage vs charm monster the rest of the fight.
Alternately, you can convince a kind and generous DM that you don't intend to use charm monster in a harmful way and then RP through the scenario. Perhaps you intend to use charm monster to diffuse the situation without violence. I still think casting the spell at a creature is a hostile act. Obviously casting a spell on yourself (like mage armor) is not a hostile act directed at another creature and therefore does not provoke initiative.
Either way, this seems like a very tricky spell to use correctly. It uses up a fourth level spell slot no less :(
Perhaps I'll go back to swinging a big axe
cheers
It is hard to use Charm Monster during a fight. If anything involving dice gets used on the target before you cast, they get Advantage on their save because they are "fighting" and if not, and they notice you casting, they get Advantage too. I don't know though, Ogres have a Passive Perception of 8, so they aren't all that likely to notice you casting, and if the Ranger didn't actually hit with the arrow, you'd be fine, they wouldn't have Advantage.
That's the kind of thing where you have to work with your group. If you tell people you're going to use Charm Monster, the ones who got Initiative higher than you can hold their actions and wait to see what happens when you cast, and then all you have to deal with is how perceptive your target is.
As for convincing your target that your intentions are benign, that would be a Persuasion check, which would involve dice, but I'd probably allow you to try, and your target would get to make a passive check against Insight, which is based on Wisdom. An Ogre at least, has a 7 there. It's just a little less Insightful than it is perceptive. It might well work.
<Insert clever signature here>
Just use Charm Person whenever you think a very convincing argument could work.
Sitting around a negotiation table, check.
Against an orc you just beaned with a cudgel, maybe not.
Otherwise, Advantage is comparable to a +5 bonus, so target enemies with weaker Wisdom Saving Throws, and try to combine it with Bane, Bestow Curse, or other such effects.