You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
and another feature that says:
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
This second feature, quoted here, modifies the first one. It says as much. The first one lets you attack twice, and sub in cantrips. The 2nd feature modifies that functionality, swapping the two to a three. That is why it says "instead of twice".
The Fighter's [Extra Attack (2)] level 11 feature is written as a modification of the Extra Attack feature, so just apply it to your Bladesinger's Extra Attack and ignore the fighter's default Extra Attack.
They all have the same damn name. DMG rule is clear. This. Does. Not. Work.
If that is true, then the Fighter's Extra Attack (2) feature doesn't function whatsoever.
It only allows you to attack three times, instead of two times, when you take the attack action. So, if you can't use this feature in combination with a default Extra Attack feature, it doesn't do anything whatsoever. because by default you can't attack twice with the attack action.
The Fighter's second Extra Attack feature must, necessarily, be capable of modifying the Extra Attack feature generally.
Unless the Fighter's extra attack feature improvements at 11 and 20 are not separate features, but inclusions in the one Fighter that take effect at later levels. Something written like:
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
And that is exactly how it is written. So the improvements are all part of the fighter's one 5th level feature, and do not blend with other versions of extra attack.
Well, that is exactly how their level 5 feature is written. But, they do in fact have entries for the 11th and then 20th level.
But the level 11 extra Attack feature is written:
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
And then they get a 3rd Extra Attack feature that says:
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Only relevant in our topic is that 11th level feature.
Which. Again. Says: "Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
1) where in the rules does it say that an individual rule should be interpreted by how adjacent, but unrelated, rules are written? Each rule stands alone, unless it references another directly (via reference) indirectly (by using a game term or non-specific reference that has meaning elsewhere) or by conflict (specific v. general).
Right back at you, where does the PHB or DMG encourage you to ignore the structure of the rulebooks and their chapters, and read sections or sentences in a vacuum? That isn't how "plain english" works, and the authors almost certainly do not intend you to be able to flip to a random page and read any random sentence in a way that provides a coherent and correct rule without the benefit of any other context.
Did I say that? Did I not include 3 ways that context can be (and is) referenced or interacted with in the rules? I'm willing to add a 4th, Formatting, which would include things like chapter and paragraph headings, and any general info given under those headings before we get into specific rules
So the 4 are:
Direct Reference (citing another section of the rules)
Indirect Reference (citing a term or convention defined in another section of the rules)
Contradiction (Specific v. General)
Formatting (location, title, paragraph headings, general info under same)
Now, in the interest of fair play, lets look at the section of the PHB in question. Since formatting is the easiest to organize by, we will start there:
The rules section is in the Chapter entitled Customization Options, and the intro says these are optional rules at DM's discretion.
It is also under the Multiclass Section, so these optional rules apply to multiclassing
It is finally under the Class Features section, which says that
When you gain a new level in the class, you gain the class features for that class' level
You don't get the new class' starting equipment
Certain Class Features have additional rules that apply (note that the section doesn't say exceptions, just "additional rules")
So, the formatting and rules for the section says nothing about overrides, exceptions, or anything relevant to linking the separate rules other than they are additional rules. There is no indication that these should be taken as exceptions to other rules, overrides, replacements, or that the rules themselves are linked in any way.
That means that the Rules presented for Extra Attack should be taken as in addition to any other rules by RAW text of the section they are in. Now, lets look at that rule itself:
Extra Attack
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So This rule says:
You don't add the features (not the effects, the features) together. Features by context in the sentence being the Extra Attack class feature from 2 or more classes. So if you aren't adding the entire feature together, then you can't stack, nor can you combine those features, because that is what add means, and you can't do it.
You can't make more than two attacks with the feature unless one you have says you can (I don't think any of us are arguing that)
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
and another feature that says:
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
This second feature, quoted here, modifies the first one. It says as much. The first one lets you attack twice, and sub in cantrips. The 2nd feature modifies that functionality, swapping the two to a three. That is why it says "instead of twice".
The Fighter's [Extra Attack (2)] level 11 feature is written as a modification of the Extra Attack feature, so just apply it to your Bladesinger's Extra Attack and ignore the fighter's default Extra Attack.
They all have the same damn name. DMG rule is clear. This. Does. Not. Work.
If that is true, then the Fighter's Extra Attack (2) feature doesn't function whatsoever.
It only allows you to attack three times, instead of two times, when you take the attack action. So, if you can't use this feature in combination with a default Extra Attack feature, it doesn't do anything whatsoever. because by default you can't attack twice with the attack action.
The Fighter's second Extra Attack feature must, necessarily, be capable of modifying the Extra Attack feature generally.
Unless the Fighter's extra attack feature improvements at 11 and 20 are not separate features, but inclusions in the one Fighter that take effect at later levels. Something written like:
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
And that is exactly how it is written. So the improvements are all part of the fighter's one 5th level feature, and do not blend with other versions of extra attack.
Well, that is exactly how their level 5 feature is written. But, they do in fact have entries for the 11th and then 20th level.
But the level 11 extra Attack feature is written:
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
And then they get a 3rd Extra Attack feature that says:
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Only relevant in our topic is that 11th level feature.
Which. Again. Says: "Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
Yes, but the 11th level feature is not written as a stand alone feature. It is the same 5th level feature with an update built into it at level 11 and then again at 20.
It is hard-coded to work only with the fighter's version of extra attack, becuase that is all it is; the fighter's version of extra attack.
It is the same as the Monk's martial arts di in that sense: you don't replace martial arts with a totally different version of martial arts each time you get a bigger di. Its all the same feature, even if its details change at higher levels.
Extra Attack (2) & (3) in the class write-ups features is a reminder that the Extra Attack feature obtained at level 5 provide additional benefits at those levels. They are not new features and the presence of a number in parenthese doesn't make them different named game element.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So This rule says:
You don't add the features (not the effects, the features) together. Features by context in the sentence being the Extra Attack class feature from 2 or more classes. So if you aren't adding the entire feature together, then you can't stack, nor can you combine those features, because that is what add means, and you can't do it.
You can't make more than two attacks with the feature unless one you have says you can (I don't think any of us are arguing that)
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
So, the line in that quoted rules text I feel is getting overlooked is "You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does)."
You gloss over it and accept that it is true without actually processing what it is telling you. The guy in our example does, in fact, have this specifically excepted version of Extra Attack. That's as specific a rule as you're going to get. Specifically called out by name. "The fighter's version of Extra Attack does". Does what? Does allow you to have more than two attacks with your Extra Attack feature. We have that feature. So this rule says that if you have the Extra Attack feature from being an 11th level fighter, your Extra Attacks does more than attack twice.
This second sentence clarifies the first. What's the message? You don't get extra attacks beyond the two, even if you have multiple Extra Attack features, because that's a fighter only thing. You don't add up extra attacks in that way. The whole paragraph is about the number of extra attacks, and how you don't stack that number of attacks. It has nothing to do with your ability to sub out attacks for other options.
It is entirely silent on subbing out attacks. Unconcerned with that entirely. You can sub out those attacks for whatever you might normally be able to sub attacks for. Shove? Grapple? Sure. Why not? And if a Bladesinger, a cantrip.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
They're perfectly compatible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Extra Attack (2) & (3) in the class write-ups features is a reminder that the Extra Attack feature obtained at level 5 provide additional benefits at those levels. They are not new features and the presence of a number in parenthese doesn't make them different named game element.
Care to explain why they each have their own entry?
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
That is 3 features. Each listed separately on the class table. Each with their own entry. Do they interact with one another? Sure, totally. But they're each their own class ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Extra Attack (2) & (3) in the class write-ups features is a reminder that the Extra Attack feature obtained at level 5 provide additional benefits at those levels. They are not new features and the presence of a number in parenthese doesn't make them different named game element.
Care to explain why they each have their own entry?
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
That is 3 features. Each listed separately on the class table. Each with their own entry. Do they interact with one another? Sure, totally. But they're each their own class ability.
Please refer to the actual Player's Handbook (either in print or here on D&D Beyond). Those extra entries do not exist. They're helpful reminders that DDB have put into their specific class page, but they're not actually in the official rules text.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
They're perfectly compatible.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. So they can't be compatible in any perfect way.
Here is another example of how sometimes a class feature reminds you that another feature will improve it later:
Monk. At 2nd level they gain the feature Unarmored Movement. Then, at 9th level they gain the Unarmored Movement Improvement feature. That is two related and interacting, but separate features.
Unarmored Movement
Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.
Unarmored Movement Improvement
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move.
Notice that Unarmored Movement tells you the same effect that the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability will grant you. But Unarmored Movement doesn't itself grant that ability, the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability itself grants that effect, when you gain the feature at 9th level.
Each feature is its own feature, even if it sneak-peaks some possible future improvement or interaction that will happen at higher levels. Those sneak-peaks are simple reminders of what is to come, and the feature you gain at the higher level is in fact the feature that grants the functionality.
So a Fighter 11 has the feature:
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
This feature modifies, not replaces, Extra Attack, because it replaces two attacks with three attacks. If it replaced Extra Attack entirely, it would not function, as it can't replace two attacks because you wouldn't have two attacks without the feature it just replaced. So, obviously it doesn't. (aside from nothing saying it should, functionally, it cannot)
So, we know you have the 11th level fighter Extra Attack (2) feature. Yes? And we know that this feature modifies Extra Attack feature. Yes? Ok. Then it modifies the "more potent" Extra Attack from Bladesinger.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So This rule says:
You don't add the features (not the effects, the features) together. Features by context in the sentence being the Extra Attack class feature from 2 or more classes. So if you aren't adding the entire feature together, then you can't stack, nor can you combine those features, because that is what add means, and you can't do it.
You can't make more than two attacks with the feature unless one you have says you can (I don't think any of us are arguing that)
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
So, the line in that quoted rules text I feel is getting overlooked is "You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does)."
You gloss over it and accept that it is true without actually processing what it is telling you. The guy in our example does, in fact, have this specifically excepted version of Extra Attack. That's as specific a rule as you're going to get. Specifically called out by name. "The fighter's version of Extra Attack does". Does what? Does allow you to have more than two attacks with your Extra Attack feature. We have that feature. So this rule says that if you have the Extra Attack feature from being an 11th level fighter, your Extra Attacks does more than attack twice.
And you are ignoring the first part that says you cannot add the features. Not the effects, not the text, not the components, the entire feature. You cannot add them together. at all.
This second sentence clarifies the first.
I'm sorry, where does it say it clarifies the first statement? That's not what I read from the text.
What's the message? You don't get extra attacks beyond the two, even if you have multiple Extra Attack features, because that's a fighter only thing. You don't add up extra attacks in that way. The whole paragraph is about the number of extra attacks, and how you don't stack that number of attacks. It has nothing to do with your ability to sub out attacks for other options.
It is entirely silent on subbing out attacks. Unconcerned with that entirely. You can sub out those attacks for whatever you might normally be able to sub attacks for. Shove? Grapple? Sure. Why not? And if a Bladesinger, a cantrip.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
They're perfectly compatible.
...unless you read the rule in the DMG, which is not overridden, or the first part of the rule you are citing, which says the features aren't added.
Here is another example of how sometimes a class feature reminds you that another feature will improve it later:
Monk. At 2nd level they gain the feature Unarmored Movement. Then, at 9th level they gain the Unarmored Movement Improvement feature. That is two related and interacting, but separate features.
Unarmored Movement
Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.
Unarmored Movement Improvement
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move.
Notice that Unarmored Movement tells you the same effect that the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability will grant you. But Unarmored Movement doesn't itself grant that ability, the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability itself grants that effect, when you gain the feature at 9th level.
Each feature is its own feature, even if it sneak-peaks some possible future improvement or interaction that will happen at higher levels. Those sneak-peaks are simple reminders of what is to come, and the feature you gain at the higher level is in fact the feature that grants the functionality.
Unarmed Movement is also a unique feature that increase benefits at higher level in PHB. Please stop using 3rd party sources to discuss RAW format as you're getting it all wrong.
Extra Attack (2) & (3) in the class write-ups features is a reminder that the Extra Attack feature obtained at level 5 provide additional benefits at those levels. They are not new features and the presence of a number in parenthese doesn't make them different named game element.
Care to explain why they each have their own entry?
Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
That is 3 features. Each listed separately on the class table. Each with their own entry. Do they interact with one another? Sure, totally. But they're each their own class ability.
Please refer to the actual Player's Handbook (either in print or here on D&D Beyond). Those extra entries do not exist. They're helpful reminders that DDB have put into their specific class page, but they're not actually in the official rules text.
Quoting to boost this. Edit: The reason is probably tied also to the leveling software they have developed.
Here is another example of how sometimes a class feature reminds you that another feature will improve it later:
Monk. At 2nd level they gain the feature Unarmored Movement. Then, at 9th level they gain the Unarmored Movement Improvement feature. That is two related and interacting, but separate features.
Unarmored Movement
Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.
Unarmored Movement Improvement
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move.
Notice that Unarmored Movement tells you the same effect that the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability will grant you. But Unarmored Movement doesn't itself grant that ability, the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability itself grants that effect, when you gain the feature at 9th level.
Each feature is its own feature, even if it sneak-peaks some possible future improvement or interaction that will happen at higher levels. Those sneak-peaks are simple reminders of what is to come, and the feature you gain at the higher level is in fact the feature that grants the functionality.
Unarmed Movement is also a unique feature that increase benefits at higher level in PHB. Please stop using 3rd party sources to discuss RAW format as you're getting it all wrong.
I could be wrong, sure. I use DnDBeyond for access to my D&D rules. If your claim is that DnDBeyond inaccurately portrays the 5e rules text then, sure, could be. I'm not attempting to cross reference their text with a physical book. I trust this site. So, meanwhile, for Rules discussions here on the DnDBeyond forums, I'll continue to trust their rules text as valid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They have it accurately presented in the compendiums found under Sources (I just checked). The tools and Game Rules section break them up, likely to work with their leveling software for character creation, which requires a separate entry per level, and for ease of understanding progression for new players.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So This rule says:
You don't add the features (not the effects, the features) together. Features by context in the sentence being the Extra Attack class feature from 2 or more classes. So if you aren't adding the entire feature together, then you can't stack, nor can you combine those features, because that is what add means, and you can't do it.
You can't make more than two attacks with the feature unless one you have says you can (I don't think any of us are arguing that)
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
So, the line in that quoted rules text I feel is getting overlooked is "You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does)."
You gloss over it and accept that it is true without actually processing what it is telling you. The guy in our example does, in fact, have this specifically excepted version of Extra Attack. That's as specific a rule as you're going to get. Specifically called out by name. "The fighter's version of Extra Attack does". Does what? Does allow you to have more than two attacks with your Extra Attack feature. We have that feature. So this rule says that if you have the Extra Attack feature from being an 11th level fighter, your Extra Attacks does more than attack twice.
And you are ignoring the first part that says you cannot add the features. Not the effects, not the text, not the components, the entire feature. You cannot add them together. at all.
I'm not ignoring that line. I'm just not rearranging the words in it to suite my argument. "the features don't add together". The insistence to swap these words around is all that is needed to discount this argument. One reading, of what it actually says, means "don't do addition math". That's what the text actually says. the other reading, with all the words jumbled up, means "Only use one feature" and not only is that not what it is saying, literally, but not the RAI either. The entire paragraph is discussing how many attacks you get and how to figure that out.
This second sentence clarifies the first.
I'm sorry, where does it say it clarifies the first statement? That's not what I read from the text.
It says don't add. Then says only fighter go above 2. Is straightforward.
What's the message? You don't get extra attacks beyond the two, even if you have multiple Extra Attack features, because that's a fighter only thing. You don't add up extra attacks in that way. The whole paragraph is about the number of extra attacks, and how you don't stack that number of attacks. It has nothing to do with your ability to sub out attacks for other options.
It is entirely silent on subbing out attacks. Unconcerned with that entirely. You can sub out those attacks for whatever you might normally be able to sub attacks for. Shove? Grapple? Sure. Why not? And if a Bladesinger, a cantrip.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
They're perfectly compatible.
...unless you read the rule in the DMG, which is not overridden, or the first part of the rule you are citing, which says the features aren't added.
We're not adding anything. We're doing substitutions. Swapping one attack for 2 attacks. Swapping 2 attacks for 3 attacks. And then swapping one of those attacks for a cantrip. No adding involved.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
So This rule says:
You don't add the features (not the effects, the features) together. Features by context in the sentence being the Extra Attack class feature from 2 or more classes. So if you aren't adding the entire feature together, then you can't stack, nor can you combine those features, because that is what add means, and you can't do it.
You can't make more than two attacks with the feature unless one you have says you can (I don't think any of us are arguing that)
Thirsting Blade does not stack with Extra Attack.
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
So, the line in that quoted rules text I feel is getting overlooked is "You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does)."
You gloss over it and accept that it is true without actually processing what it is telling you. The guy in our example does, in fact, have this specifically excepted version of Extra Attack. That's as specific a rule as you're going to get. Specifically called out by name. "The fighter's version of Extra Attack does". Does what? Does allow you to have more than two attacks with your Extra Attack feature. We have that feature. So this rule says that if you have the Extra Attack feature from being an 11th level fighter, your Extra Attacks does more than attack twice.
And you are ignoring the first part that says you cannot add the features. Not the effects, not the text, not the components, the entire feature. You cannot add them together. at all.
I'm not ignoring that line. I'm just not rearranging the words in it to suite my argument. "the features don't add together". The insistence to swap these words around is all that is needed to discount this argument. One reading, of what it actually says, means "don't do addition math".
It doesn't, actually. First, features are not math; it is not saying you can't add the number of attacks. That would be math. It is saying features. Second. here are the transitive verb (which this is) definitions of add, sourced from merriam webster:
to join or unite so as to bring about an increase or improvement
That's what the text actually says. the other reading, with all the words jumbled up, means "Only use one feature" and not only is that not what it is saying, literally, but not the RAI either. The entire paragraph is discussing how many attacks you get and how to figure that out.
This second sentence clarifies the first.
I'm sorry, where does it say it clarifies the first statement? That's not what I read from the text.
It says don't add. Then says only fighter go above 2. Is straightforward.
What's the message? You don't get extra attacks beyond the two, even if you have multiple Extra Attack features, because that's a fighter only thing. You don't add up extra attacks in that way. The whole paragraph is about the number of extra attacks, and how you don't stack that number of attacks. It has nothing to do with your ability to sub out attacks for other options.
It is entirely silent on subbing out attacks. Unconcerned with that entirely. You can sub out those attacks for whatever you might normally be able to sub attacks for. Shove? Grapple? Sure. Why not? And if a Bladesinger, a cantrip.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
They're perfectly compatible.
...unless you read the rule in the DMG, which is not overridden, or the first part of the rule you are citing, which says the features aren't added.
We're not adding anything. We're doing substitutions. Swapping one attack for 2 attacks. Swapping 2 attacks for 3 attacks. And then swapping one of those attacks for a cantrip. No adding involved.
Does the section where this rule appears say that they are rules that substitute other rules? It does not. It says these rules are added. That means they are in addition to any rule that might come to bear. One that does is the DMG rule, which, again, you refuse to acknowledge or even try to refute.
They have it accurately presented in the compendiums found under Sources (I just checked). The tools and Game Rules section break them up, likely to work with their leveling software for character creation, which requires a separate entry per level, and for ease of understanding progression for new players.
Yeah, I'm 100% wrong on this topic. After it being pointed out, and digging more, the rules I was quoting aren't found in the Rules Text of the actual PHB anywhere. DnDBeyond entirely fabricated them for some reason.
The Game Rules > Fighter menu path leads to a page with the follow:
Extra Attack
Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Extra Attack
At 20th level, you can attack four times, instead of three, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
And this text is entirely absent in the PHB. The only text it contains is the version at 5th level.
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.
Since my entire argument revolved around the 11th level version, the version that is completely fictional, apparently, my entire argument is a house of cards, and is collapsed. You can't use this feature and the other one simultaneously. And there isn't a later feature that improves the base versions, so it is pick one or the other.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's as many versions of Extra Attack as there are classes that have it, but only one Extra Attack per class. We can still talk about whether Fighter Extra Attack and Wizard Extra Attack can meaningfully merge, without needing Fighter Extra Attack 11 to be its own thing.
There's as many versions of Extra Attack as there are classes that have it, but only one Extra Attack per class. We can still talk about whether Fighter Extra Attack and Wizard Extra Attack can meaningfully merge, without needing Fighter Extra Attack 11 to be its own thing.
This is true, but not what i based my argument on specifically. I based mine on a lie! >.< lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Well, that is exactly how their level 5 feature is written. But, they do in fact have entries for the 11th and then 20th level.
But the level 11 extra Attack feature is written:
And then they get a 3rd Extra Attack feature that says:
Only relevant in our topic is that 11th level feature.
Which. Again. Says: "Beginning at 11th level, you can attack three times, instead of twice, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Did I say that? Did I not include 3 ways that context can be (and is) referenced or interacted with in the rules? I'm willing to add a 4th, Formatting, which would include things like chapter and paragraph headings, and any general info given under those headings before we get into specific rules
So the 4 are:
Now, in the interest of fair play, lets look at the section of the PHB in question. Since formatting is the easiest to organize by, we will start there:
So, the formatting and rules for the section says nothing about overrides, exceptions, or anything relevant to linking the separate rules other than they are additional rules. There is no indication that these should be taken as exceptions to other rules, overrides, replacements, or that the rules themselves are linked in any way.
That means that the Rules presented for Extra Attack should be taken as in addition to any other rules by RAW text of the section they are in. Now, lets look at that rule itself:
So This rule says:
So looking at the 1st and 2nd bullets. If you can't add the features together, you have to choose one to use. If you have one that allows more than two, you can use it, but not added to (stacked or combined) with another feature. I think you are getting hung up thinking the rule says you can't add the attacks, but it says you can't add the features themselves. If they wanted to only say you couldn't add the attacks, they could have just said: "you can't add the attacks from one Extra Attack feature to the attacks from another" but they instead said you can't add the features together. This is perfectly in keeping with the DMG rule
the rule directly references Thirsting Blade and the Extra Attack class feature(s), indirectly references the section where an "attack" is defined, and does not contradict with any portion of the general rule in the DMG. If it doesn't contradict, and the section in the PHB says it is an additional rule, not an exception, override, or replacement, then both rules can apply.
Yes, but the 11th level feature is not written as a stand alone feature. It is the same 5th level feature with an update built into it at level 11 and then again at 20.
It is hard-coded to work only with the fighter's version of extra attack, becuase that is all it is; the fighter's version of extra attack.
It is the same as the Monk's martial arts di in that sense: you don't replace martial arts with a totally different version of martial arts each time you get a bigger di. Its all the same feature, even if its details change at higher levels.
Extra Attack (2) & (3) in the class write-ups features is a reminder that the Extra Attack feature obtained at level 5 provide additional benefits at those levels. They are not new features and the presence of a number in parenthese doesn't make them different named game element.
So, the line in that quoted rules text I feel is getting overlooked is "You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does)."
You gloss over it and accept that it is true without actually processing what it is telling you. The guy in our example does, in fact, have this specifically excepted version of Extra Attack. That's as specific a rule as you're going to get. Specifically called out by name. "The fighter's version of Extra Attack does". Does what? Does allow you to have more than two attacks with your Extra Attack feature. We have that feature. So this rule says that if you have the Extra Attack feature from being an 11th level fighter, your Extra Attacks does more than attack twice.
This second sentence clarifies the first. What's the message? You don't get extra attacks beyond the two, even if you have multiple Extra Attack features, because that's a fighter only thing. You don't add up extra attacks in that way. The whole paragraph is about the number of extra attacks, and how you don't stack that number of attacks. It has nothing to do with your ability to sub out attacks for other options.
It is entirely silent on subbing out attacks. Unconcerned with that entirely. You can sub out those attacks for whatever you might normally be able to sub attacks for. Shove? Grapple? Sure. Why not? And if a Bladesinger, a cantrip.
If you take the Bladesinger's Extra Attack, and use it in combination with the Fighter's 11th level modification to Extra Attack:
They're perfectly compatible.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Care to explain why they each have their own entry?
That is 3 features. Each listed separately on the class table. Each with their own entry. Do they interact with one another? Sure, totally. But they're each their own class ability.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Please refer to the actual Player's Handbook (either in print or here on D&D Beyond). Those extra entries do not exist. They're helpful reminders that DDB have put into their specific class page, but they're not actually in the official rules text.
If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. So they can't be compatible in any perfect way.
Here is another example of how sometimes a class feature reminds you that another feature will improve it later:
Monk. At 2nd level they gain the feature Unarmored Movement. Then, at 9th level they gain the Unarmored Movement Improvement feature. That is two related and interacting, but separate features.
Notice that Unarmored Movement tells you the same effect that the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability will grant you. But Unarmored Movement doesn't itself grant that ability, the Unarmored Movement Improvement ability itself grants that effect, when you gain the feature at 9th level.
Each feature is its own feature, even if it sneak-peaks some possible future improvement or interaction that will happen at higher levels. Those sneak-peaks are simple reminders of what is to come, and the feature you gain at the higher level is in fact the feature that grants the functionality.
So a Fighter 11 has the feature:
This feature modifies, not replaces, Extra Attack, because it replaces two attacks with three attacks. If it replaced Extra Attack entirely, it would not function, as it can't replace two attacks because you wouldn't have two attacks without the feature it just replaced. So, obviously it doesn't. (aside from nothing saying it should, functionally, it cannot)
So, we know you have the 11th level fighter Extra Attack (2) feature. Yes? And we know that this feature modifies Extra Attack feature. Yes? Ok. Then it modifies the "more potent" Extra Attack from Bladesinger.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They don't have seperate entries in PHB, only in 3rd party.
And you are ignoring the first part that says you cannot add the features. Not the effects, not the text, not the components, the entire feature. You cannot add them together. at all.
I'm sorry, where does it say it clarifies the first statement? That's not what I read from the text.
...unless you read the rule in the DMG, which is not overridden, or the first part of the rule you are citing, which says the features aren't added.
Unarmed Movement is also a unique feature that increase benefits at higher level in PHB. Please stop using 3rd party sources to discuss RAW format as you're getting it all wrong.
Quoting to boost this. Edit: The reason is probably tied also to the leveling software they have developed.
I could be wrong, sure. I use DnDBeyond for access to my D&D rules. If your claim is that DnDBeyond inaccurately portrays the 5e rules text then, sure, could be. I'm not attempting to cross reference their text with a physical book. I trust this site. So, meanwhile, for Rules discussions here on the DnDBeyond forums, I'll continue to trust their rules text as valid.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They have it accurately presented in the compendiums found under Sources (I just checked). The tools and Game Rules section break them up, likely to work with their leveling software for character creation, which requires a separate entry per level, and for ease of understanding progression for new players.
I'm not ignoring that line. I'm just not rearranging the words in it to suite my argument. "the features don't add together". The insistence to swap these words around is all that is needed to discount this argument. One reading, of what it actually says, means "don't do addition math". That's what the text actually says. the other reading, with all the words jumbled up, means "Only use one feature" and not only is that not what it is saying, literally, but not the RAI either. The entire paragraph is discussing how many attacks you get and how to figure that out.
It says don't add. Then says only fighter go above 2. Is straightforward.
We're not adding anything. We're doing substitutions. Swapping one attack for 2 attacks. Swapping 2 attacks for 3 attacks. And then swapping one of those attacks for a cantrip. No adding involved.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't, actually. First, features are not math; it is not saying you can't add the number of attacks. That would be math. It is saying features. Second. here are the transitive verb (which this is) definitions of add, sourced from merriam webster:
Does the section where this rule appears say that they are rules that substitute other rules? It does not. It says these rules are added. That means they are in addition to any rule that might come to bear. One that does is the DMG rule, which, again, you refuse to acknowledge or even try to refute.
Yeah, I'm 100% wrong on this topic. After it being pointed out, and digging more, the rules I was quoting aren't found in the Rules Text of the actual PHB anywhere. DnDBeyond entirely fabricated them for some reason.
The Game Rules > Fighter menu path leads to a page with the follow:
And this text is entirely absent in the PHB. The only text it contains is the version at 5th level.
Since my entire argument revolved around the 11th level version, the version that is completely fictional, apparently, my entire argument is a house of cards, and is collapsed. You can't use this feature and the other one simultaneously. And there isn't a later feature that improves the base versions, so it is pick one or the other.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I wouldn't go that far :)
There's as many versions of Extra Attack as there are classes that have it, but only one Extra Attack per class. We can still talk about whether Fighter Extra Attack and Wizard Extra Attack can meaningfully merge, without needing Fighter Extra Attack 11 to be its own thing.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
This is true, but not what i based my argument on specifically. I based mine on a lie! >.< lol
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.