Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
Pass Without Trace doesn't end when someone affected attacks. Concentration can be held during combat, but if the caster takes damage, the concentration checks need be made to maintain the spell. Also, if the caster casts another concentration spell, concentration on pass without a trace ends.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
As stated, the spell pass without trace does what it says and remains for its duration unless the caster's concentration is broken. But, sure, that particular stealth roll would have ended if the PCs made their presence known by attacking. As long as the spell continues, the PCs can try to hide again and still gain the effects of the spell.
So, players can hide, attack (with surprise as long as their stealth checks beat the passive perception of the monsters), continue down the corridor, hide again, attack from stealth again, etc.
But players can't hide if there is nothing to hide them. You can't walk into an open featureless room and remain hidden.
They also can't exactly get a "free round" against all the monsters. When combat starts is when you roll initiative, and surprised creatures simply don't get to move or take actions that round. Your PCs all have to beat a particular enemy's passive perception in order to surprise that enemy, but each enemy may or may not be surprised.
Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
They way you would normally do it is have the party cast Pass Without Trace, then make Dexterity (Stealth) checks when they can hide and travel while concealed. Then when they find some creatures to ambush, you compare their's Passive Perception to the party's Stealth checks to determine who might be surprised. Any monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter and can’t move or take an action on their first turn of the combat, and can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. Then you roll initiative and proceed turn by turn. Like this no one attack outside initiative order and surprise determine who can act and react.
Since a round represents about 6 seconds in the game world, the Pass Without Trace could still be in effect after the combat if the caster didn't fail a concentration check, cast another concentration spell or ended up incapacitated somehow.
Remember: this spell does not make you invisible. Twice I've encountered players who thought that the "can't be tracked" part of the spell means their character is invisible. One was a brand new player, so obviously it was a misunderstanding, and the other time it was an experienced player who should have known better... it was fairly obvious he was trying to use semantics to bend the rules into a pretzel.
Remember: this spell does not make you invisible. Twice I've encountered players who thought that the "can't be tracked" part of the spell means their character is invisible. One was a brand new player, so obviously it was a misunderstanding, and the other time it was an experienced player who should have known better... it was fairly obvious he was trying to use semantics to bend the rules into a pretzel.
Yeah it's not invisibility, nor does it give people any way to hide more easily. So creatures being affected by Pass Without Trace still can’t hide from creatures that can see them clearly, and give away their position if they make noise. Alert monsters could see them if they come out of hiding and approach while openly visible. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow creatures to stay hidden as they approach distracted creatures as suggested in the rules.
It's also one of those spell that the fluff and the mechanic don't follow each other meaningfully. The spell causes a veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection, yet it doesn't specifically create any level of obscured area, nor does it specifically say no sound can be created within the area or pass through it, like for the Silence spell for exemple. It just gives a significant bonus to Stealth rolls and let you move without leaving tracks behind to be tracked by non-magical means.
So basically and the gist of the replies which were all very helpful is, and I'm sorry if I'm being a bit too picky: The spell should've maintained because it's still a concentration spell so it should only be broken if the caster failed the concentration check HOWEVER if they revealed themselves by attacking, the monsters should know where they are and should attack them even if they are still within the "veil of shadows", without disadvantage, unless the PC's try to hide and "slither" back further into the veil of shadows (I'm still a bit confused I guess on this part, according to the quotes they shouldn't even be able to do what I'm describing here correct?.
Remember: this spell does not make you invisible. Twice I've encountered players who thought that the "can't be tracked" part of the spell means their character is invisible. One was a brand new player, so obviously it was a misunderstanding, and the other time it was an experienced player who should have known better... it was fairly obvious he was trying to use semantics to bend the rules into a pretzel.
Yeah it's not invisibility, nor does it give people any way to hide more easily.
In that case I would rule that since the monsters have some intelligence and it was an open area the monsters would still know where they would be but they'd have to guess where inside the veil they were and would be attacking with disadvantage, does this make sense?
Otherwise the PC can leave the spell up but it will be barely useful unless they eventually try to run and then the spell might help them not be followed I guess.
The first part that most of you described with the stealth rolls perception check and surprise I acted accordingly :)
In that case I would rule that since the monsters have some intelligence and it was an open area the monsters would still know where they would be but they'd have to guess where inside the veil they were and would be attacking with disadvantage, does this make sense?
The veil of shadow isn't obscure area mechanically speaking. If the party arrive in the open and are visible, you can either rule that:
1) Enemies are not distracted, party is immediately seen.
2) Enemies are possibly distracted, party is seen if successful Perception vs Stealth
It's also one of those spell that the fluff and the mechanic don't follow each other meaningfully.
It's also a bonus that is way outside the normal way 5e works, which would be either 'advantage on stealth checks', 'disadvantage on perception checks to spot', or possibly both.
The "veil of shadows" part is just fluff/description, it has no actual in-game effect. The effect is +10 to Dex (stealth) and can't be tracked except by magic, nothing more.
Otherwise the PC can leave the spell up but it will be barely useful unless they eventually try to run and then the spell might help them not be followed I guess.
Pretty much. It will help if one (or more) of the party wants to hide during the fight (by giving the +10) while staying within the radius. But yea mostly it won't do much during the fight.
There's no such thing as fluff in spell descriptions, there is a "veil of shadows," because the spell says there is. It just isn't a veil of shadows that is sufficient to actually change a lit area to dim light or lightly obscured or anything.
You can have a plus 1 billion to your stealth score, and still not be entitled to roll a check to Hide unless the DM determines that the situation is "appropriate" to allow a character to hide. There are some specific racial or feat features or conditions that can change that, but generally, a DM can always say "you've given away your position by attacking, the situation isn't appropriate to try to hide again until something changes!"
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured as explained in chapter 8, “Adventuring.”
Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
No. You roll initiative before any surprise attacks occur, and rolling initiative doesn't end the spell.
Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
No. You roll initiative before any surprise attacks occur, and rolling initiative doesn't end the spell.
Yeah, I was going to mention this too. The order for starting combat seems to have been mixed up. People actually rolling attacks doesn't start until step 4:
COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are — how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. 5. Begin the next round. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat step 4 until the fighting stops.
So, if they surprised their enemy, on the first round those enemy are simply "surprised" and cannot act on round 1. But, your players should not have attacked before their turn on round one either. Surprised enemies always get a turn in round one, though. It is simply a turn in which they can't act.
Then, on their respective turn, when they attacked, they're reveal their individual location.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's no such thing as fluff in spell descriptions, there is a "veil of shadows," because the spell says there is. It just isn't a veil of shadows that is sufficient to actually change a lit area to dim light or lightly obscured or anything.
While I disagree with you fundamentally regarding the existence of fluff text (you could replace "veil of shadows" with "flock of green birds" in this spell description and the spell still has the exact same effect - but let's not have this debate), you are absolutely correct that this spell does not in fact change the circumstances in which you can hide or move while hidden.
You can't use this spell to move unseen through open terrain in broad daylight. Nor even to hide in light obscurement like dim light unless you would also be able to attempt to hide without this spell (like if you were a wood elf standing in light obscurement foliage). Your can use this spell to enhance your abilities when hiding is inherently possible: you are sneaking through the dark of night through gaps between the torch lights of the guards, you are moving quietly through the corn field leaving no bent stalks as sign of your passage, you creep from tree to tree in the forest getting closer and closer to the goblin camp. The "veil of shadows" has the effect of enhancing your ability to stay hidden, the aura of silence muffles your footsteps and the jingling of your armour, and the spell also prevents any footprints, lingering scent or any other trackable sign.
The spell does not make you invisible (though if you were also invisible from some other effect, you could use this spell to hide your footprints and muffle your sounds making you some sort of undetectable super invisible!).
Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
The stealth/surprise issue - Pass Without Trace is not Invisibility, and it is not Darkness. Nothing in the text says it offers any kind of cover or obscurement. What did they use to break line of sight with their targets?
The spell breaking - It's a Concentration spell, so as long as the caster didn't lose Concentration the spell stays. But see above re: PWT is not Darkness. Even if the spell is maintained, nothing about it automatically makes the party hidden. If for example the party Rogue attacked, then used Cunning Action to Hide behind cover and they were still within range of the caster, I assume they'd still get the +10.
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Second time DM running a homebrew one shot. While dungeon delving my PC's used Pass Without Trace and rolled stealth, however after finding some creatures they attacked from within. I let them get surprise attacks off because they were very insistent on synchronizing their attacks beforehand, after this happened everyone rolled for initiative and I assumed the Pass Without Trace had been broken, no one complained or said anything but I was curious, did I act correctly?
Pass Without Trace doesn't end when someone affected attacks. Concentration can be held during combat, but if the caster takes damage, the concentration checks need be made to maintain the spell. Also, if the caster casts another concentration spell, concentration on pass without a trace ends.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
As stated, the spell pass without trace does what it says and remains for its duration unless the caster's concentration is broken. But, sure, that particular stealth roll would have ended if the PCs made their presence known by attacking. As long as the spell continues, the PCs can try to hide again and still gain the effects of the spell.
So, players can hide, attack (with surprise as long as their stealth checks beat the passive perception of the monsters), continue down the corridor, hide again, attack from stealth again, etc.
But players can't hide if there is nothing to hide them. You can't walk into an open featureless room and remain hidden.
They also can't exactly get a "free round" against all the monsters. When combat starts is when you roll initiative, and surprised creatures simply don't get to move or take actions that round. Your PCs all have to beat a particular enemy's passive perception in order to surprise that enemy, but each enemy may or may not be surprised.
They way you would normally do it is have the party cast Pass Without Trace, then make Dexterity (Stealth) checks when they can hide and travel while concealed. Then when they find some creatures to ambush, you compare their's Passive Perception to the party's Stealth checks to determine who might be surprised. Any monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter and can’t move or take an action on their first turn of the combat, and can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. Then you roll initiative and proceed turn by turn. Like this no one attack outside initiative order and surprise determine who can act and react.
Since a round represents about 6 seconds in the game world, the Pass Without Trace could still be in effect after the combat if the caster didn't fail a concentration check, cast another concentration spell or ended up incapacitated somehow.
Remember: this spell does not make you invisible. Twice I've encountered players who thought that the "can't be tracked" part of the spell means their character is invisible. One was a brand new player, so obviously it was a misunderstanding, and the other time it was an experienced player who should have known better... it was fairly obvious he was trying to use semantics to bend the rules into a pretzel.
Yeah it's not invisibility, nor does it give people any way to hide more easily. So creatures being affected by Pass Without Trace still can’t hide from creatures that can see them clearly, and give away their position if they make noise. Alert monsters could see them if they come out of hiding and approach while openly visible. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow creatures to stay hidden as they approach distracted creatures as suggested in the rules.
It's also one of those spell that the fluff and the mechanic don't follow each other meaningfully. The spell causes a veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection, yet it doesn't specifically create any level of obscured area, nor does it specifically say no sound can be created within the area or pass through it, like for the Silence spell for exemple. It just gives a significant bonus to Stealth rolls and let you move without leaving tracks behind to be tracked by non-magical means.
So basically and the gist of the replies which were all very helpful is, and I'm sorry if I'm being a bit too picky: The spell should've maintained because it's still a concentration spell so it should only be broken if the caster failed the concentration check HOWEVER if they revealed themselves by attacking, the monsters should know where they are and should attack them even if they are still within the "veil of shadows", without disadvantage, unless the PC's try to hide and "slither" back further into the veil of shadows (I'm still a bit confused I guess on this part, according to the quotes they shouldn't even be able to do what I'm describing here correct?.
In that case I would rule that since the monsters have some intelligence and it was an open area the monsters would still know where they would be but they'd have to guess where inside the veil they were and would be attacking with disadvantage, does this make sense?
Otherwise the PC can leave the spell up but it will be barely useful unless they eventually try to run and then the spell might help them not be followed I guess.
The first part that most of you described with the stealth rolls perception check and surprise I acted accordingly :)
The veil of shadow isn't obscure area mechanically speaking. If the party arrive in the open and are visible, you can either rule that:
1) Enemies are not distracted, party is immediately seen.
2) Enemies are possibly distracted, party is seen if successful Perception vs Stealth
3) Enemies are distracted, party is not seen.
It's also a bonus that is way outside the normal way 5e works, which would be either 'advantage on stealth checks', 'disadvantage on perception checks to spot', or possibly both.
The "veil of shadows" part is just fluff/description, it has no actual in-game effect. The effect is +10 to Dex (stealth) and can't be tracked except by magic, nothing more.
Pretty much. It will help if one (or more) of the party wants to hide during the fight (by giving the +10) while staying within the radius. But yea mostly it won't do much during the fight.
There's no such thing as fluff in spell descriptions, there is a "veil of shadows," because the spell says there is. It just isn't a veil of shadows that is sufficient to actually change a lit area to dim light or lightly obscured or anything.
You can have a plus 1 billion to your stealth score, and still not be entitled to roll a check to Hide unless the DM determines that the situation is "appropriate" to allow a character to hide. There are some specific racial or feat features or conditions that can change that, but generally, a DM can always say "you've given away your position by attacking, the situation isn't appropriate to try to hide again until something changes!"
PHB Chapter 7 on Hiding has rules for Hide that aren't found in PHB 9 where the Hide action is described.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
No. You roll initiative before any surprise attacks occur, and rolling initiative doesn't end the spell.
Yeah, I was going to mention this too. The order for starting combat seems to have been mixed up. People actually rolling attacks doesn't start until step 4:
So, if they surprised their enemy, on the first round those enemy are simply "surprised" and cannot act on round 1. But, your players should not have attacked before their turn on round one either. Surprised enemies always get a turn in round one, though. It is simply a turn in which they can't act.
Then, on their respective turn, when they attacked, they're reveal their individual location.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
While I disagree with you fundamentally regarding the existence of fluff text (you could replace "veil of shadows" with "flock of green birds" in this spell description and the spell still has the exact same effect - but let's not have this debate), you are absolutely correct that this spell does not in fact change the circumstances in which you can hide or move while hidden.
You can't use this spell to move unseen through open terrain in broad daylight. Nor even to hide in light obscurement like dim light unless you would also be able to attempt to hide without this spell (like if you were a wood elf standing in light obscurement foliage). Your can use this spell to enhance your abilities when hiding is inherently possible: you are sneaking through the dark of night through gaps between the torch lights of the guards, you are moving quietly through the corn field leaving no bent stalks as sign of your passage, you creep from tree to tree in the forest getting closer and closer to the goblin camp. The "veil of shadows" has the effect of enhancing your ability to stay hidden, the aura of silence muffles your footsteps and the jingling of your armour, and the spell also prevents any footprints, lingering scent or any other trackable sign.
The spell does not make you invisible (though if you were also invisible from some other effect, you could use this spell to hide your footprints and muffle your sounds making you some sort of undetectable super invisible!).
The stealth/surprise issue - Pass Without Trace is not Invisibility, and it is not Darkness. Nothing in the text says it offers any kind of cover or obscurement. What did they use to break line of sight with their targets?
The spell breaking - It's a Concentration spell, so as long as the caster didn't lose Concentration the spell stays. But see above re: PWT is not Darkness. Even if the spell is maintained, nothing about it automatically makes the party hidden. If for example the party Rogue attacked, then used Cunning Action to Hide behind cover and they were still within range of the caster, I assume they'd still get the +10.