I say, once you take the Undead off ramp from living a lich or other undead caster (vampire, etc.) can't cast clone with itself as a subject.
I don't believe keeping a clone somewhere as a back up for the soul if the lich/phylactery apparatus would be usually viable. Whatever one does to make oneself a lich involves magics above the D&D Spell list's level capacity. If a Clone were intended to be some sort of escape for Lich about to be completely destroyed, it would require additional magic to make the conduit of the Lich's soul to the clone body on part with the magic that transformed the caster to a Lich in the first place. Basically, you're out of spell description jurisdiction and into some Epic Boon level magic use, if I were to speculate on a mechanical resolution on a character sheet.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’m not so sure, let’s say the clone was done when the mage was in his 50’s creating a body of himself at about 25 and leaving a set of equipment and spellbooks then hiding the clone etc behind a rockfall it would last essentially forever according to the spell. I agree that the Lich transformation is some type of epic magic that forces the soul into the phylactery if that transfer occurred in the mages 80’s the line in clone about free and willing applies as the the mage is unwilling because he is attempting to become a Lich and the magic is forcing his soul so it’s not free. However, if the phylactery is destroyed and the Lich “ killed” the lichdom magic is no longer active making the soul free and, assuming the mage remembers the clone, he might well be quite willing to go inhabit the body. I see nothing in the rules to prevent the mage from “ resurrecting” in such a way and continuing to be a really nasty badguy for many years to come. This could easily happen hundreds of years after the mage became a Lich as well.
I’m not so sure, let’s say the clone was done when the mage was in his 50’s creating a body of himself at about 25 and leaving a set of equipment and spellbooks then hiding the clone etc behind a rockfall it would last essentially forever according to the spell. I agree that the Lich transformation is some type of epic magic that forces the soul into the phylactery if that transfer occurred in the mages 80’s the line in clone about free and willing applies as the the mage is unwilling because he is attempting to become a Lich and the magic is forcing his soul so it’s not free. However, if the phylactery is destroyed and the Lich “ killed” the lichdom magic is no longer active making the soul free and, assuming the mage remembers the clone, he might well be quite willing to go inhabit the body. I see nothing in the rules to prevent the mage from “ resurrecting” in such a way and continuing to be a really nasty badguy for many years to come. This could easily happen hundreds of years after the mage became a Lich as well.
And for a recurring enemy, this would be great!
Especially if you can find a party of noobs, who do not yet know that to kill a lich, you need to destroy it's body, then destroy it's phylactery - then, in this case, find and kill it's clone.
And the clone might be someone actually likeable. Morals may shift over time, but waking up in a 25 year old body, without any aches and pains, and with all those hormones working and running wild, it just might be our 'villain' decides that this time around, it might be nice to find someone to love, settle down, raises a family, maybe work a small patch of land.
Would be interesting to see - when the party finds their nemesis again, years later, and she's now a wife and a mother, pillar of community, and so on =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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I say, once you take the Undead off ramp from living a lich or other undead caster (vampire, etc.) can't cast clone with itself as a subject.
I don't believe keeping a clone somewhere as a back up for the soul if the lich/phylactery apparatus would be usually viable. Whatever one does to make oneself a lich involves magics above the D&D Spell list's level capacity. If a Clone were intended to be some sort of escape for Lich about to be completely destroyed, it would require additional magic to make the conduit of the Lich's soul to the clone body on part with the magic that transformed the caster to a Lich in the first place. Basically, you're out of spell description jurisdiction and into some Epic Boon level magic use, if I were to speculate on a mechanical resolution on a character sheet.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’m not so sure, let’s say the clone was done when the mage was in his 50’s creating a body of himself at about 25 and leaving a set of equipment and spellbooks then hiding the clone etc behind a rockfall it would last essentially forever according to the spell. I agree that the Lich transformation is some type of epic magic that forces the soul into the phylactery if that transfer occurred in the mages 80’s the line in clone about free and willing applies as the the mage is unwilling because he is attempting to become a Lich and the magic is forcing his soul so it’s not free. However, if the phylactery is destroyed and the Lich “ killed” the lichdom magic is no longer active making the soul free and, assuming the mage remembers the clone, he might well be quite willing to go inhabit the body. I see nothing in the rules to prevent the mage from “ resurrecting” in such a way and continuing to be a really nasty badguy for many years to come. This could easily happen hundreds of years after the mage became a Lich as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
And for a recurring enemy, this would be great!
Especially if you can find a party of noobs, who do not yet know that to kill a lich, you need to destroy it's body, then destroy it's phylactery - then, in this case, find and kill it's clone.
And the clone might be someone actually likeable. Morals may shift over time, but waking up in a 25 year old body, without any aches and pains, and with all those hormones working and running wild, it just might be our 'villain' decides that this time around, it might be nice to find someone to love, settle down, raises a family, maybe work a small patch of land.
Would be interesting to see - when the party finds their nemesis again, years later, and she's now a wife and a mother, pillar of community, and so on =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.