Darkvision treats Darkness as if it were Dim Light, even though it isn't.
No, it doesn't.
"Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray."
The bold part proves the difference, and demonstrates that even with Darkvision you're still in darkness. And since you're in darkness, Devil's Sight applies.
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Find Familiar treats your spell cast as if it were the Familiar who cast it. That doesn't mean mechanically you treat it as though you cast the spell - but without the "as if it" wording, things like your caster's spell slots break down and what not after using the spell thru your familiar's reaction action. In other words, the Familiar casts your spell for you; "as if it" cast the spell itself (but it has no spellbook or slots so it needs your spell casting info)... Hence the phrasing "as if it"
This is also so much nonsense.
"Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Your familiar can deliver a spell as if it had cast it, and uses its reaction to do so. That's all. You absolutely do treat the spell as though you cast it yourself, because you did cast it yourself. The only mechanical difference is that your familiar becomes the point of origin for the touch spell - the familiar does the touching for you.
1) Being in darkness and how you perceive it are the exact same thing.
2) In other words, you're basically saying, "well it's darkness for other players so its darkness for you"
3) The wording of the rule is designed to avoid "group" conflicts. Otherwise, if it didn't say "treat as" or "as if it" then people could argue, under RAI, that since one person had Darkvision, everyone in the party could see. "It said with Darkvision Darkness looks like Dim Light - They must be explaining to me what I see or something."
1) They can't be the same thing. If being in darkness with darkvision was the same thing as being in dim light, and being in dim light with darkvision was the same as being in bright light, being in darkness with darkvision would let you perceive darkness as bright light.
2) Because it is. Darkness is darkness, for everyone. That may mean different things for different characters, but it's still darkness.
3) This is inane. You're arguing a personal theory and using an absurd fictional example to support it. The rule is worded as it is because that wording means exactly what it's supposed to mean. That's all.
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Darkvision says "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light."
It doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to see in darkness.
Therefore the devil's sight rules can still be applied.
It does change the fact because you mechanically treat it as dim light. The fact that I can just as easily say the opposite means this interpretation does not actually clarify any potential conflicts between the ruleset.
In other words, you're claiming the benefit of the darkness becoming dim light, and then ignoring that mechanic to gain the benefit of devil's sight. Bear in mind the wording of Darkvision is to ensure players essentially always get its benefit - not to straddle the line with other very clear rules. To do what you're suggesting would break down the rules for light for the remainder of your campaign - Players saying, "well teeechnically I'm in this kind of light sooo" with a wide variety of spells and abilities. I could reach as far as saying like a torch in a dark tunnel - technically you're still in the dark but you have a bubble of light within it with your interpretation.
But do not be dismayed! You can still gain the benefits of both by declaring you see w/ Devil's Sight over Darkvision if you ever had to squeeze that rule out. Again, we're just playing w/ rule phrasing and your interpretation is every bit as legit as mine - but again, the fact that I can claim the rules could be interpreted the opposite leaves us at square one.
Darkvision and Devil's Sight don't change the ambient light at all so they both interact with what the light actually is, not what you perceive it as.
Mechanically, they DO change what it "actually" is. I'm blown away by how many people seem to think the perception of darkness and actual darkness are two separate things... Being in darkness and how you perceive it are the exact same thing. HOW you perceive it is up to the individual and whether they have things like Darkvision or Devil's Sight. Seriously, think about it: they are one in the same, lmao
In other words, you're basically saying, "well it's darkness for other players so its darkness for you"
The wording of the rule is designed to avoid "group" conflicts. Otherwise, if it didn't say "treat as" or "as if it" then people could argue, under RAI, that since one person had Darkvision, everyone in the party could see. "It said with Darkvision Darkness looks like Dim Light - They must be explaining to me what I see or something."
The rules MUST specify such considerations we take for granted as participants (either player or DM).
Darkness is the partial or total absence of light.
Neither darkvision or devil's sight add light to the environment thus the Darkness remains unchanged. Perception has nothing to do with whether it is dark or not. If you are in a dark room and put on night vision goggles, the room is still dark. The dark still exists. When you walk into a dark room and Darkvision kicks in, it is still dark.
Darkvision says "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light."
It doesn't change the fact that you are still trying to see in darkness.
Therefore the devil's sight rules can still be applied.
It does change the fact because you mechanically treat it as dim light. The fact that I can just as easily say the opposite means this interpretation does not actually clarify any potential conflicts between the ruleset.
In other words, you're claiming the benefit of the darkness becoming dim light, and then ignoring that mechanic to gain the benefit of devil's sight. Bear in mind the wording of Darkvision is to ensure players essentially always get its benefit - not to straddle the line with other very clear rules. To do what you're suggesting would break down the rules for light for the remainder of your campaign - Players saying, "well teeechnically I'm in this kind of light sooo" with a wide variety of spells and abilities. I could reach as far as saying like a torch in a dark tunnel - technically you're still in the dark but you have a bubble of light within it with your interpretation.
But do not be dismayed! You can still gain the benefits of both by declaring you see w/ Devil's Sight over Darkvision if you ever had to squeeze that rule out. Again, we're just playing w/ rule phrasing and your interpretation is every bit as legit as mine - but again, the fact that I can claim the rules could be interpreted the opposite leaves us at square one.
Darkvision and Devil's Sight don't change the ambient light at all so they both interact with what the light actually is, not what you perceive it as.
Mechanically, they DO change what it "actually" is. I'm blown away by how many people seem to think the perception of darkness and actual darkness are two separate things... Being in darkness and how you perceive it are the exact same thing. HOW you perceive it is up to the individual and whether they have things like Darkvision or Devil's Sight. Seriously, think about it: they are one in the same, lmao
In other words, you're basically saying, "well it's darkness for other players so its darkness for you"
The wording of the rule is designed to avoid "group" conflicts. Otherwise, if it didn't say "treat as" or "as if it" then people could argue, under RAI, that since one person had Darkvision, everyone in the party could see. "It said with Darkvision Darkness looks like Dim Light - They must be explaining to me what I see or something."
The rules MUST specify such considerations we take for granted as participants (either player or DM).
Darkness is the partial or total absence of light.
Neither darkvision or devil's sight add light to the environment thus the Darkness remains unchanged. Perception has nothing to do with whether it is dark or not. If you are in a dark room and put on night vision goggles, the room is still dark. The dark still exists. When you walk into a dark room and Darkvision kicks in, it is still dark.
Actually, the fact that the night vision goggles work suggest there is light, just not in great enough levels to see in. Darkness IS a perception. Which is why creatures w/ night vision (aka Darkvision) see "as if" in Dim Light... They can make use of the limited light present. Now the rules say, "treat is as if it was something else" which means you... "treat it as if it were something else..."
Again, the purpose of this discussion is to pull specific rules and phrasing which clarify the situation - not add potential debate. Not fudge interpretations to avoid accessing specific rules
Like my point is that Darkvision is worded that way to say what you're saying. The room is still dark to everyone else. The language is SUPER clear.
Also, I prefer the rulebooks definition of darkness for our purposes here: "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."
folks be like, "BRO - THE ROOM IS STILL DARK EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE DARKVISION"
to which I sarcastically retort, "what!? no way!? it is!?" ahahahaha - think about what's being said... The rule MUST reflect that the room is still indeed dark and that bright/dim levels only apply to the character/creature who has the ability (which is why most other light spells are worded different - they change the light level for everyone) for the rules to function at a basic level. If it said the room was dim or bright light after applying darkvision, then that would be true for all characters present. Hence why they say "its as if the room is dim/bright" for the character w/ darkvision (if it said it is dim/bright for the character, then they could do things like use a mirror to signal someone by flashing the "light" applied only to them - everything HAS to be literal and specific). Its dim/bright for them. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's how written rule works.
AAALL the phrasing folks have tried to fudge is used in different rules which would make those other rules fall apart if the same interpretation that was used here was applied to them, lol
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
This is indeed what they say, and this is what we've been arguing all along. It's "you can see in darkness as if in dim light", it's not "when in darkness you are treated as if in dim light". "You can see in darkness" literally says you are in darkness. If you are in darkness, Devil's Sight applies.
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PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
A character with darkvision also only sees shades of grey while in darkness (Devil's Sight allows for normal vision). There is a clear difference in perception between someone in actual dim light and someone with darkvision in darkness. The latter can tell they're in darkness, and could even if darkvision was automatic (which, as you say, it isn't).
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Darkvision treats Darkness as if it were Dim Light, even though it isn't.
No, it doesn't.
"Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray."
The bold part proves the difference, and demonstrates that even with Darkvision you're still in darkness. And since you're in darkness, Devil's Sight applies.
Yes it does, lol.
And I agree that yes, the darkness IS still darkness - but for the character with Darkvision, its mechanically as if looking into dim - it IS dim for their sense of sight. Period. It has to be written that way or else people could interpret the rules as Darkvision eliminating darkness for the party (maybe they're telling their party what they see - people will try it... just look thru this thread to see all the reaching be it mine or someone else's) Otherwise the rule could become confusing without that distinction (remember, they have to have the same trends and procedures throughout the thousands of rules which may apply at any given moment - its just Darkvision and Devil's Sight are easy to pull and compare).
I'm not even saying you can't apply both, lmao, just not with the rules you're attempting to hang your point on (see Simultaneous Effects and you're golden - apply Devil's Sight first and then Darkvision - no conflict). They're simply confirming how the character sees in the Darkness (which they see as if Dim Light - as far as their sight is concerned, it should be treated as if dim light). Sure, that's already in the Dim Light rules but it also has an immediate impact on the regular use of the skill. "How do I see in the Darkness with Darkvision?" "In greyscale, as if it were dim light" leaving the DM to worry about disadvantage and passive perception. If they wanted the rule to be interpreted your way, they would have just said so versus describing the dim light it turned the darkness into, lol.
Fact of the matter is, my points are just as valid as your unless you have a rule which says otherwise. Hence why I'm trying to keep the discussion about RAW, not RAI
Find Familiar treats your spell cast as if it were the Familiar who cast it. That doesn't mean mechanically you treat it as though you cast the spell - but without the "as if it" wording, things like your caster's spell slots break down and what not after using the spell thru your familiar's reaction action. In other words, the Familiar casts your spell for you; "as if it" cast the spell itself (but it has no spellbook or slots so it needs your spell casting info)... Hence the phrasing "as if it"
This is also so much nonsense.
"Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Your familiar can deliver a spell as if it had cast it, and uses its reaction to do so. That's all. You absolutely do treat the spell as though you cast it yourself, because you did cast it yourself. The only mechanical difference is that your familiar becomes the point of origin for the touch spell - the familiar does the touching for you.
lol - this is exactly my point. we're using two interpretations of the same rule to say different things. You say, "as if it" doesn't mean "as if it" - I say it does. Where's your rule? Also - how are you not getting the hand-off of mechanics here? Changing the Point of Origin for a TOUCH spell is HUGE. Change Darkness to Dim Light is HUGE. Its literally the entire point of the language/rule/mechanic and you're trying to fudge it
(also, the rule you're looking for is Simultaneous Effects - Xanathar's - I'm not saying the two SHOULD conflict, but rather there should be a "not-open-for-interpretation" rule. And there is. So there. lol)
1) Being in darkness and how you perceive it are the exact same thing.
2) In other words, you're basically saying, "well it's darkness for other players so its darkness for you"
3) The wording of the rule is designed to avoid "group" conflicts. Otherwise, if it didn't say "treat as" or "as if it" then people could argue, under RAI, that since one person had Darkvision, everyone in the party could see. "It said with Darkvision Darkness looks like Dim Light - They must be explaining to me what I see or something."
1) They can't be the same thing. If being in darkness with darkvision was the same thing as being in dim light, and being in dim light with darkvision was the same as being in bright light, being in darkness with darkvision would let you perceive darkness as bright light.
2) Because it is. Darkness is darkness, for everyone. That may mean different things for different characters, but it's still darkness.
3) This is inane. You're arguing a personal theory and using an absurd fictional example to support it. The rule is worded as it is because that wording means exactly what it's supposed to mean. That's all.
1 - except you only apply a benefit once - you can't apply darkvision to yourself twice. At most, you add the ranges together [NEXT!] 2 - except as far as the character(s) with darkvision - the see it as dim light 3 - you're just annoyed I haven't deferred to your logic. you're missing the point of the entire discussion. WHERE'S THE RAW!? All you have is RAI. My "insane personal theory" is merely proving how someone can easily offer the exact opposite of what your interpretation is, thus rendering it moot! You're wrong. The rule you needed was "Simultaneous Effects" which discusses exactly this type of scenario. The player PICKS! Go figure! RAW!
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
I actually agree w/ you here, sorry if I missed what you said or didn't address this point - the word "can" floats it, but Xanathar's Guide to Everything has clarification which nails it: Simultaneous Effects on page 5 (basically, the player - or DM if a monster - picks)
What I don't like about the "can" is its WIDE open to interpretation but WotC seems to be pretty careful about how they use it (in that you're not going to get any weird circumstances which provide a benefit someone might be seeking)
So running with what you said (and I'm in total agreement), a Drow with Sup. DV can opt out of the benefit; perhaps there's a hag or dragon and they'd rather be blind than face the check from seeing them. Sure! Go for it! Notice Sunlight Sensitivity is a completely separate rule which often, travels w/ Sup. Darkvision [I could be wrong about that... maybe its mostly just Drow... Either way!] Separate so that the Drow cannot choose to opt out of Sunlight Sensitivity. I know I'm pointing out the obvious here but only to illustrate the point there's pretty much ALWAYS a RAW which says exactly what to do (to the point you could program it into a game and it wouldn't crash from conflicts - hint hint, wink wink)
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
A character with darkvision also only sees shades of grey while in darkness (Devil's Sight allows for normal vision). There is a clear difference in perception between someone in actual dim light and someone with darkvision in darkness. The latter can tell they're in darkness, and could even if darkvision was automatic (which, as you say, it isn't).
I don't understand what you're trying to say? The character knows what they're standing in? There's nothing in Devil's Sight that actually says they don't know if they're in light or darkness. It just says they see normally in it if that's what you're getting at. Either way, it means nothing as far as how Darkvision and Devil's Sight work together. And there is a rule on key words (also Xanathars, Page 5 - Combining Different Effects. Same page as Simultaneous Effects which confirms you can absolutely, RAW, stack Devils Sight and Darkvision for uber-vision (if the player chooses to apply Devil's Sight first)
Yea, I'm sure most PC's are aware of their inherent abilities and when they're in effect and there's nothing that says a character wouldn't be aware. Then again, perhaps that's a good one to explore next? Its been done before throughout the inter-webs (whether a creature/character w/ Devil's Sight knows its looking at darkness or bright light), but what RAW rule says a character 'knows' what their senses are? Sure, one could assume a character proficient in a trade skill knows they can do their skill... Or maybe not? Maybe they have low self esteem - where's the rule? lol (that said, the roll of the die ultimately decides they can and why RAW doesn't force proficiency to make an attempt at something if I'm not mistaken?). JK - the rules on which skills/tasks/activities require proficiency and which do not (like trade skills do - regular skill checks like athletics do not with some in between w/ things like downtime activities and performance - but there's a rule for all of it; sometimes variations for the party to select) and since characters are assumed to know when they're looking into darkness or not ordinarily, we would assume they can under some effect which affects the light level for them (like Devil's Sight) unless of course the rule says otherwise. Therefore, a character w/ Devil's Sight would know when they are looking into bright light or darkness
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
A character with darkvision also only sees shades of grey while in darkness (Devil's Sight allows for normal vision). There is a clear difference in perception between someone in actual dim light and someone with darkvision in darkness. The latter can tell they're in darkness, and could even if darkvision was automatic (which, as you say, it isn't).
I don't understand what you're trying to say? The character knows what they're standing in? There's nothing in Devil's Sight that actually says they don't know if they're in light or darkness. It just says they see normally in it if that's what you're getting at. Either way, it means nothing as far as how Darkvision and Devil's Sight work together. And there is a rule on key words (also Xanathars, Page 5 - Combining Different Effects. Same page as Simultaneous Effects which confirms you can absolutely, RAW, stack Devils Sight and Darkvision for uber-vision (if the player chooses to apply Devil's Sight first)
Yea, I'm sure most PC's are aware of their inherent abilities and when they're in effect and there's nothing that says a character wouldn't be aware. Then again, perhaps that's a good one to explore next? Its been done before throughout the inter-webs (whether a creature/character w/ Devil's Sight knows its looking at darkness or bright light), but what RAW rule says a character 'knows' what their senses are? Sure, one could assume a character proficient in a trade skill knows they can do their skill... Or maybe not? Maybe they have low self esteem - where's the rule? lol (that said, the roll of the die ultimately decides they can and why RAW doesn't force proficiency to make an attempt at something if I'm not mistaken?). JK - the rules on which skills/tasks/activities require proficiency and which do not (like trade skills do - regular skill checks like athletics do not with some in between w/ things like downtime activities and performance - but there's a rule for all of it; sometimes variations for the party to select) and since characters are assumed to know when they're looking into darkness or not ordinarily, we would assume they can under some effect which affects the light level for them (like Devil's Sight) unless of course the rule says otherwise. Therefore, a character w/ Devil's Sight would know when they are looking into bright light or darkness
I'm saying a person seeing in darkness and actively using darkvision doesn't perceive that darkness as dim light. They can see as well as if they were in dim light, but they can't see colour. Consequently, darkness + darkvision doesn't equal dim light.
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Find Familiar treats your spell cast as if it were the Familiar who cast it. That doesn't mean mechanically you treat it as though you cast the spell - but without the "as if it" wording, things like your caster's spell slots break down and what not after using the spell thru your familiar's reaction action. In other words, the Familiar casts your spell for you; "as if it" cast the spell itself (but it has no spellbook or slots so it needs your spell casting info)... Hence the phrasing "as if it"
This is also so much nonsense.
"Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Your familiar can deliver a spell as if it had cast it, and uses its reaction to do so. That's all. You absolutely do treat the spell as though you cast it yourself, because you did cast it yourself. The only mechanical difference is that your familiar becomes the point of origin for the touch spell - the familiar does the touching for you.
lol - this is exactly my point. we're using two interpretations of the same rule to say different things. You say, "as if it" doesn't mean "as if it" - I say it does. Where's your rule? Also - how are you not getting the hand-off of mechanics here? Changing the Point of Origin for a TOUCH spell is HUGE. Change Darkness to Dim Light is HUGE. Its literally the entire point of the language/rule/mechanic and you're trying to fudge it
(also, the rule you're looking for is Simultaneous Effects - Xanathar's - I'm not saying the two SHOULD conflict, but rather there should be a "not-open-for-interpretation" rule. And there is. So there. lol)
No, I'm interpreting the mechanic. You're saying that "the Familiar casts your spell for you", which is absolutely incorrect.
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Find Familiar treats your spell cast as if it were the Familiar who cast it. That doesn't mean mechanically you treat it as though you cast the spell - but without the "as if it" wording, things like your caster's spell slots break down and what not after using the spell thru your familiar's reaction action. In other words, the Familiar casts your spell for you; "as if it" cast the spell itself (but it has no spellbook or slots so it needs your spell casting info)... Hence the phrasing "as if it"
This is also so much nonsense.
"Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Your familiar can deliver a spell as if it had cast it, and uses its reaction to do so. That's all. You absolutely do treat the spell as though you cast it yourself, because you did cast it yourself. The only mechanical difference is that your familiar becomes the point of origin for the touch spell - the familiar does the touching for you.
lol - this is exactly my point. we're using two interpretations of the same rule to say different things. You say, "as if it" doesn't mean "as if it" - I say it does. Where's your rule? Also - how are you not getting the hand-off of mechanics here? Changing the Point of Origin for a TOUCH spell is HUGE. Change Darkness to Dim Light is HUGE. Its literally the entire point of the language/rule/mechanic and you're trying to fudge it
(also, the rule you're looking for is Simultaneous Effects - Xanathar's - I'm not saying the two SHOULD conflict, but rather there should be a "not-open-for-interpretation" rule. And there is. So there. lol)
No, I'm interpreting the mechanic. You're saying that "the Familiar casts your spell for you", which is absolutely incorrect.
No you're not - you're stretching phrasing trying to get a 1-up somewhere, lol. The rule literally says "as if it casts it itself" which is effectively the same as "the Familiar casts your spell for you" and includes additional language to establish exactly how it works (which turns out, is as if your familiar cast it itself/casts your spell for you).
1 - except you only apply a benefit once - you can't apply darkvision to yourself twice. At most, you add the ranges together [NEXT!]
Show me the RAW. Darkvision is not a magical effect, assuming it's innate and not the result of a spell.
LOL - what a joke!
First of all, with your interpretation of the rule here (trying to prove a point and failing), nobody's interpretation of Darkvision works. That's your first hint. In other words, if that was true, all your versions of Darkvision interpretations are also broken. So which is it? Can players apply Darkvision over and over? You're riding the point that I said they see the darkness as dim light so you're trying to say they could just "look twice" or something and turn it into bright light. I can apply that same broken logic to your points - if they look at darkness as if it was dim light, they look again and see it as if it was bright light. Your point proves nothing! It doesn't render MY point moot if it renders all YOUR points moot too, ahahaha.
Secondly, there's nothing in Darkvision that grants the ability to turn Darkness into Bright Light - absolutely nothing. Since, we already established it doesn't actually remove Darkness (that way, the rest of the effects which don't have to do with their sight apply as well as leaving the darkness in tact for other characters who have no special effects). But for that character, they can see the Darkness as though it was Dim Light with Darkvision... Or they can see it as regular Darkness. One or the other. YOU have to come up w/ the rule that says you can do more - not me.
Next, I already gave you the rule that says only one effect can be applied at a time as far as effects go, lmao! Combining Magical Effects Different game effects can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to your Armor Class. But when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them (the most powerful one if their benefits aren't identical) applies while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if bless is cast of you when you're still under the effect of an earlier bless, you gain the benefit of only one casting. Similarly, if you're in the radius of more than one Aura of Protection, you benefit only from the one that grants the highest bonus.
So you only get one Darkvision benefit at a time. Darkness is only ever Dim Light; Dim Light is only ever Bright Light if using Darkvision.
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Notes: Be respectful of your fellow community members
1 - except you only apply a benefit once - you can't apply darkvision to yourself twice. At most, you add the ranges together [NEXT!]
Show me the RAW. Darkvision is not a magical effect, assuming it's innate and not the result of a spell.
LOL - what a joke!
1) First of all, with your interpretation of the rule here (trying to prove a point and failing), nobody's interpretation of Darkvision works. That's your first hint. In other words, if that was true, all your versions of Darkvision interpretations are also broken. So which is it? Can players apply Darkvision over and over? You're riding the point that I said they see the darkness as dim light so you're trying to say they could just "look twice" or something and turn it into bright light. I can apply that same broken logic to your points - if they look at darkness as if it was dim light, they look again and see it as if it was bright light. Your point proves nothing! It doesn't render MY point moot if it renders all YOUR points moot too, ahahaha.
2) Secondly, there's nothing in Darkvision that grants the ability to turn Darkness into Bright Light - absolutely nothing. Since, we already established it doesn't actually remove Darkness (that way, the rest of the effects which don't have to do with their sight apply as well as leaving the darkness in tact for other characters who have no special effects). But for that character, they can see the Darkness as though it was Dim Light with Darkvision... Or they can see it as regular Darkness. One or the other. YOU have to come up w/ the rule that says you can do more - not me.
3) Next, I already gave you the rule that says only one effect can be applied at a time as far as effects go, lmao! Combining Magical Effects Different game effects can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to your Armor Class. But when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them (the most powerful one if their benefits aren't identical) applies while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if bless is cast of you when you're still under the effect of an earlier bless, you gain the benefit of only one casting. Similarly, if you're in the radius of more than one Aura of Protection, you benefit only from the one that grants the highest bonus.
So you only get one Darkvision benefit at a time. Darkness is only ever Dim Light. Dim Light is only ever Bright Light if using Darkvision.
Oh dear...
1) Darkvision works fine with my interpretation, since I don't use this "treats as" stuff you're adamant about. The problem's with yours, because Darkvision doesn't treat darkness as dim light. Darkvision doesn't allow you to see color in darkness, but in dim light you do see color.
2) Correct, there's nothing in Darkvision that grants the ability to turn Darkness into Bright Light. However, your interpretation suggests there is. That's my point.
3) That's the rule for magical effects. Racial Darkvision is not a magical effect.
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No, it doesn't.
"Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray."
The bold part proves the difference, and demonstrates that even with Darkvision you're still in darkness. And since you're in darkness, Devil's Sight applies.
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This is also so much nonsense.
"Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Your familiar can deliver a spell as if it had cast it, and uses its reaction to do so. That's all. You absolutely do treat the spell as though you cast it yourself, because you did cast it yourself. The only mechanical difference is that your familiar becomes the point of origin for the touch spell - the familiar does the touching for you.
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1) They can't be the same thing. If being in darkness with darkvision was the same thing as being in dim light, and being in dim light with darkvision was the same as being in bright light, being in darkness with darkvision would let you perceive darkness as bright light.
2) Because it is. Darkness is darkness, for everyone. That may mean different things for different characters, but it's still darkness.
3) This is inane. You're arguing a personal theory and using an absurd fictional example to support it. The rule is worded as it is because that wording means exactly what it's supposed to mean. That's all.
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Darkness is the partial or total absence of light.
Neither darkvision or devil's sight add light to the environment thus the Darkness remains unchanged. Perception has nothing to do with whether it is dark or not. If you are in a dark room and put on night vision goggles, the room is still dark. The dark still exists. When you walk into a dark room and Darkvision kicks in, it is still dark.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Actually, the fact that the night vision goggles work suggest there is light, just not in great enough levels to see in. Darkness IS a perception. Which is why creatures w/ night vision (aka Darkvision) see "as if" in Dim Light... They can make use of the limited light present. Now the rules say, "treat is as if it was something else" which means you... "treat it as if it were something else..."
Again, the purpose of this discussion is to pull specific rules and phrasing which clarify the situation - not add potential debate. Not fudge interpretations to avoid accessing specific rules
Like my point is that Darkvision is worded that way to say what you're saying. The room is still dark to everyone else. The language is SUPER clear.
Also, I prefer the rulebooks definition of darkness for our purposes here: "Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness."
folks be like, "BRO - THE ROOM IS STILL DARK EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE DARKVISION"
to which I sarcastically retort, "what!? no way!? it is!?" ahahahaha - think about what's being said... The rule MUST reflect that the room is still indeed dark and that bright/dim levels only apply to the character/creature who has the ability (which is why most other light spells are worded different - they change the light level for everyone) for the rules to function at a basic level. If it said the room was dim or bright light after applying darkvision, then that would be true for all characters present. Hence why they say "its as if the room is dim/bright" for the character w/ darkvision (if it said it is dim/bright for the character, then they could do things like use a mirror to signal someone by flashing the "light" applied only to them - everything HAS to be literal and specific). Its dim/bright for them. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's how written rule works.
AAALL the phrasing folks have tried to fudge is used in different rules which would make those other rules fall apart if the same interpretation that was used here was applied to them, lol
PS - note it reads "X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" so the room is dark/dim still, but as far as the character's sight goes its dim/bright
They don't.
This is indeed what they say, and this is what we've been arguing all along. It's "you can see in darkness as if in dim light", it's not "when in darkness you are treated as if in dim light". "You can see in darkness" literally says you are in darkness. If you are in darkness, Devil's Sight applies.
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No, that's incorrect, and it's incorrect in a way relevant to this thread. I discussed this back on page 1, but I see it's time to emphasize it. Emphasis added below is mine.
"X can see in Y within the radius as if it were Z" means as far as the character's sight goes, it can be dim/bright. Darkvision is not a compulsory effect. Anyone with Darkvision and Devil's Sight looking around within range of both can always choose not to use their Darkvision, which means it can't nerf your sight. You can always choose not use it.
A character with darkvision also only sees shades of grey while in darkness (Devil's Sight allows for normal vision). There is a clear difference in perception between someone in actual dim light and someone with darkvision in darkness. The latter can tell they're in darkness, and could even if darkvision was automatic (which, as you say, it isn't).
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Yes it does, lol.
And I agree that yes, the darkness IS still darkness - but for the character with Darkvision, its mechanically as if looking into dim - it IS dim for their sense of sight. Period. It has to be written that way or else people could interpret the rules as Darkvision eliminating darkness for the party (maybe they're telling their party what they see - people will try it... just look thru this thread to see all the reaching be it mine or someone else's)
Otherwise the rule could become confusing without that distinction (remember, they have to have the same trends and procedures throughout the thousands of rules which may apply at any given moment - its just Darkvision and Devil's Sight are easy to pull and compare).
I'm not even saying you can't apply both, lmao, just not with the rules you're attempting to hang your point on (see Simultaneous Effects and you're golden - apply Devil's Sight first and then Darkvision - no conflict). They're simply confirming how the character sees in the Darkness (which they see as if Dim Light - as far as their sight is concerned, it should be treated as if dim light). Sure, that's already in the Dim Light rules but it also has an immediate impact on the regular use of the skill. "How do I see in the Darkness with Darkvision?" "In greyscale, as if it were dim light" leaving the DM to worry about disadvantage and passive perception. If they wanted the rule to be interpreted your way, they would have just said so versus describing the dim light it turned the darkness into, lol.
Fact of the matter is, my points are just as valid as your unless you have a rule which says otherwise. Hence why I'm trying to keep the discussion about RAW, not RAI
lol - this is exactly my point. we're using two interpretations of the same rule to say different things. You say, "as if it" doesn't mean "as if it" - I say it does. Where's your rule?
Also - how are you not getting the hand-off of mechanics here? Changing the Point of Origin for a TOUCH spell is HUGE. Change Darkness to Dim Light is HUGE. Its literally the entire point of the language/rule/mechanic and you're trying to fudge it
(also, the rule you're looking for is Simultaneous Effects - Xanathar's - I'm not saying the two SHOULD conflict, but rather there should be a "not-open-for-interpretation" rule. And there is. So there. lol)
1 - except you only apply a benefit once - you can't apply darkvision to yourself twice. At most, you add the ranges together [NEXT!]
2 - except as far as the character(s) with darkvision - the see it as dim light
3 - you're just annoyed I haven't deferred to your logic. you're missing the point of the entire discussion. WHERE'S THE RAW!? All you have is RAI. My "insane personal theory" is merely proving how someone can easily offer the exact opposite of what your interpretation is, thus rendering it moot! You're wrong. The rule you needed was "Simultaneous Effects" which discusses exactly this type of scenario. The player PICKS! Go figure! RAW!
Good day sir!
I actually agree w/ you here, sorry if I missed what you said or didn't address this point - the word "can" floats it, but Xanathar's Guide to Everything has clarification which nails it: Simultaneous Effects on page 5 (basically, the player - or DM if a monster - picks)
What I don't like about the "can" is its WIDE open to interpretation but WotC seems to be pretty careful about how they use it (in that you're not going to get any weird circumstances which provide a benefit someone might be seeking)
So running with what you said (and I'm in total agreement), a Drow with Sup. DV can opt out of the benefit; perhaps there's a hag or dragon and they'd rather be blind than face the check from seeing them. Sure! Go for it!
Notice Sunlight Sensitivity is a completely separate rule which often, travels w/ Sup. Darkvision [I could be wrong about that... maybe its mostly just Drow... Either way!] Separate so that the Drow cannot choose to opt out of Sunlight Sensitivity. I know I'm pointing out the obvious here but only to illustrate the point there's pretty much ALWAYS a RAW which says exactly what to do (to the point you could program it into a game and it wouldn't crash from conflicts - hint hint, wink wink)
I don't understand what you're trying to say? The character knows what they're standing in? There's nothing in Devil's Sight that actually says they don't know if they're in light or darkness. It just says they see normally in it if that's what you're getting at. Either way, it means nothing as far as how Darkvision and Devil's Sight work together. And there is a rule on key words (also Xanathars, Page 5 - Combining Different Effects. Same page as Simultaneous Effects which confirms you can absolutely, RAW, stack Devils Sight and Darkvision for uber-vision (if the player chooses to apply Devil's Sight first)
Yea, I'm sure most PC's are aware of their inherent abilities and when they're in effect and there's nothing that says a character wouldn't be aware. Then again, perhaps that's a good one to explore next? Its been done before throughout the inter-webs (whether a creature/character w/ Devil's Sight knows its looking at darkness or bright light), but what RAW rule says a character 'knows' what their senses are? Sure, one could assume a character proficient in a trade skill knows they can do their skill... Or maybe not? Maybe they have low self esteem - where's the rule? lol (that said, the roll of the die ultimately decides they can and why RAW doesn't force proficiency to make an attempt at something if I'm not mistaken?). JK - the rules on which skills/tasks/activities require proficiency and which do not (like trade skills do - regular skill checks like athletics do not with some in between w/ things like downtime activities and performance - but there's a rule for all of it; sometimes variations for the party to select) and since characters are assumed to know when they're looking into darkness or not ordinarily, we would assume they can under some effect which affects the light level for them (like Devil's Sight) unless of course the rule says otherwise. Therefore, a character w/ Devil's Sight would know when they are looking into bright light or darkness
I'm saying a person seeing in darkness and actively using darkvision doesn't perceive that darkness as dim light. They can see as well as if they were in dim light, but they can't see colour. Consequently, darkness + darkvision doesn't equal dim light.
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Show me the RAW. Darkvision is not a magical effect, assuming it's innate and not the result of a spell.
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No, I'm interpreting the mechanic. You're saying that "the Familiar casts your spell for you", which is absolutely incorrect.
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No you're not - you're stretching phrasing trying to get a 1-up somewhere, lol. The rule literally says "as if it casts it itself" which is effectively the same as "the Familiar casts your spell for you" and includes additional language to establish exactly how it works (which turns out, is as if your familiar cast it itself/casts your spell for you).
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LOL - what a joke!
First of all, with your interpretation of the rule here (trying to prove a point and failing), nobody's interpretation of Darkvision works. That's your first hint. In other words, if that was true, all your versions of Darkvision interpretations are also broken. So which is it? Can players apply Darkvision over and over? You're riding the point that I said they see the darkness as dim light so you're trying to say they could just "look twice" or something and turn it into bright light. I can apply that same broken logic to your points - if they look at darkness as if it was dim light, they look again and see it as if it was bright light. Your point proves nothing! It doesn't render MY point moot if it renders all YOUR points moot too, ahahaha.
Secondly, there's nothing in Darkvision that grants the ability to turn Darkness into Bright Light - absolutely nothing. Since, we already established it doesn't actually remove Darkness (that way, the rest of the effects which don't have to do with their sight apply as well as leaving the darkness in tact for other characters who have no special effects). But for that character, they can see the Darkness as though it was Dim Light with Darkvision... Or they can see it as regular Darkness. One or the other. YOU have to come up w/ the rule that says you can do more - not me.
Next, I already gave you the rule that says only one effect can be applied at a time as far as effects go, lmao!
Combining Magical Effects
Different game effects can affect a target at the same time. For example, two different benefits can give you a bonus to your Armor Class. But when two or more effects have the same proper name, only one of them (the most powerful one if their benefits aren't identical) applies while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if bless is cast of you when you're still under the effect of an earlier bless, you gain the benefit of only one casting. Similarly, if you're in the radius of more than one Aura of Protection, you benefit only from the one that grants the highest bonus.
So you only get one Darkvision benefit at a time. Darkness is only ever Dim Light; Dim Light is only ever Bright Light if using Darkvision.
[REDACTED]
Oh dear...
1) Darkvision works fine with my interpretation, since I don't use this "treats as" stuff you're adamant about. The problem's with yours, because Darkvision doesn't treat darkness as dim light. Darkvision doesn't allow you to see color in darkness, but in dim light you do see color.
2) Correct, there's nothing in Darkvision that grants the ability to turn Darkness into Bright Light. However, your interpretation suggests there is. That's my point.
3) That's the rule for magical effects. Racial Darkvision is not a magical effect.
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