" The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0."
The implications of this rule are pretty clear.
Yeah, it is an effect that reduces a number. Reaching 0 is a possibility even if it doesn't stack.
Look, I know it is supposed to stack and everything makes sense if it stacks. But it doesn't say it stacks, and everything still makes sense in that context, too. That is a problem. Ambiguous rules are bad rules.
I was hoping I missed something, but apparently "you are just supposed to know the rule without it being in the book, read the official rulings that refuse to call themselves rules," is as good of an answer as can be given.
By stict RAW Life Drain can't stack with itself, only one of them (the highest) applies while the duration of the effects overlap since each instance lasts until the creature finishes a long rest.
I don't think it's RAI though and never run the Specter or Shadow Strenght Drain effect that way.
Just like score, AC, speed, ability score or any other value temporarily affected negatively or positively, going up or down for a duration....
What stop this argument from being used on anything else temporarily modified then?
Nothing?
I don’t think I know what you’re asking. Each PC only has one hit point maximum, one AC, one walking speed, one value of any ability score at a time. If something changes those, then they’re changed — temporarily or otherwise as the effect states — and you still only have one (the new one). Each remains in its new state until it is changed again. Are you arguing otherwise? Because that is what I was pointing out when I wrote post #26.
The question in this thread is what can change those values and when, so saying that you only have one of any individual of them is, although true, redundant and irrelevant.
There are explicit exceptions, such as the nycaloth's claw attack, but the specter has no such stipulation. Does that mean that if a creature is attacked by a specter several times, only the highest damage roll acts as a penalty to the creature's maximum hit points?
Correct. Same thing for a wraith. However, some DMs interpret the game rule you quoted as working the way you described: being relative to the specific monster in question, with nitty gritty varying by DM. So, if 2 specters and 2 wraiths hit you with Life Drain 2x each, you may suffer, depending on your DM:
Trait by Name: Greatest value.
Trait includes Statblock Name: Greatest[specters] + Greatest[wraiths].
Trait includes this monster's Name: Greatest[specter 1] + Greatest[specter 2] + Greatest[ghost 1] + Greatest[ghost 2].
And separately, of course, always remember your DM might change the monster's ability to any arbitrary wording, including one where the penalties stack (I think every DM I've ever had has had shadow strength drain from even the exact same shadow stack), I'm only talking about interpretations of RAW, not houserules.
There are explicit exceptions, such as the nycaloth's claw attack, but the specter has no such stipulation. Does that mean that if a creature is attacked by a specter several times, only the highest damage roll acts as a penalty to the creature's maximum hit points?
Correct. Same thing for a wraith. However, some DMs interpret the game rule you quoted as working the way you described: being relative to the specific monster in question, with nitty gritty varying by DM. So, if 2 specters and 2 wraiths hit you with Life Drain 2x each, you may suffer, depending on your DM:
Trait by Name: Greatest value.
Trait includes Statblock Name: Greatest[specters] + Greatest[wraiths].
Trait includes this monster's Name: Greatest[specter 1] + Greatest[specter 2] + Greatest[ghost 1] + Greatest[ghost 2].
And separately, of course, always remember your DM might change the monster's ability to any arbitrary wording, including one where the penalties stack (I think every DM I've ever had has had shadow strength drain from even the exact same shadow stack), I'm only talking about interpretations of RAW, not houserules.
This sort of analysis is just goofy while working in reverse for effects we know shouldn't stack. Why couldn't you make the same claim with paladin bless vs cleric bless vs Cleric Jim's bless vs Cleric Tim's bless?
I think every DM I've ever had has had shadow strength drain from even the exact same shadow stack), I'm only talking about interpretations of RAW, not houserules.
Because if it didn't, its extra feature would be virtually useless.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
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Yeah, it is an effect that reduces a number. Reaching 0 is a possibility even if it doesn't stack.
Look, I know it is supposed to stack and everything makes sense if it stacks. But it doesn't say it stacks, and everything still makes sense in that context, too. That is a problem. Ambiguous rules are bad rules.
I was hoping I missed something, but apparently "you are just supposed to know the rule without it being in the book, read the official rulings that refuse to call themselves rules," is as good of an answer as can be given.
On the plus side it doesn't matter whether there is a black and white rule for this. Since it is a monster it just works the way the GM says.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
By stict RAW Life Drain can't stack with itself, only one of them (the highest) applies while the duration of the effects overlap since each instance lasts until the creature finishes a long rest.
I don't think it's RAI though and never run the Specter or Shadow Strenght Drain effect that way.
Yes it can because your new maximum hp is different.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You have only one hit point maximum, it's a score on the character sheet.
And once you're the subject of a life drain, you still only have one: the new one that you wrote after you crossed the old one out.
Just like when you level up and increase your maximum HP, you still only have one: the new one that you wrote after you crossed the old one out.
Just like score, AC, speed, ability score or any other value temporarily affected negatively or positively, going up or down for a duration....
What stop this argument from being used on anything else temporarily modified then?
Nothing?
I don’t think I know what you’re asking. Each PC only has one hit point maximum, one AC, one walking speed, one value of any ability score at a time. If something changes those, then they’re changed — temporarily or otherwise as the effect states — and you still only have one (the new one). Each remains in its new state until it is changed again. Are you arguing otherwise? Because that is what I was pointing out when I wrote post #26.
The question in this thread is what can change those values and when, so saying that you only have one of any individual of them is, although true, redundant and irrelevant.
Correct. Same thing for a wraith. However, some DMs interpret the game rule you quoted as working the way you described: being relative to the specific monster in question, with nitty gritty varying by DM. So, if 2 specters and 2 wraiths hit you with Life Drain 2x each, you may suffer, depending on your DM:
And separately, of course, always remember your DM might change the monster's ability to any arbitrary wording, including one where the penalties stack (I think every DM I've ever had has had shadow strength drain from even the exact same shadow stack), I'm only talking about interpretations of RAW, not houserules.
This sort of analysis is just goofy while working in reverse for effects we know shouldn't stack. Why couldn't you make the same claim with paladin bless vs cleric bless vs Cleric Jim's bless vs Cleric Tim's bless?
Because if it didn't, its extra feature would be virtually useless.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale