Hello, So as much as I've read about saving throws and Difficulty Classes, I'm still confused: What number do I need to hit for the saving throw to be successful? Let's take a scenario: my PC is fighting one of three night hags, who is part of a coven. This hag has a number of spells, described as:
Shared Spellcasting. While all three members of a hag coven are within 30 feet of one another, they can each cast ... spells from the wizard’s spell list ....(spells are listed)... The spell save DC is 12 + the hag’s Intelligence modifier, and the spell attack bonus is 4 + the hag’s Intelligence modifier.
In the above, what is the spell save DC for my character? Does "The spell save DC is 12 + the hag's Intelligence modifier..." mean "the number the hag needs to overcome to successfully save..." Or "The number my character needs to save against a spell the hag makes against me..." ? I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?
For example we have "plane shift": The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. So I toss my die- I get a 13. Soooo.... what am I comparing that 13 to? My Charisma? Or the hag's?
Remember when rolling a saving throw, it is the victim/target of the effect that rolls the dice - to save themselves from the danger. The Difficulty Class (DC) is a reflection of how difficult it will be to save - a higher number is harder.
A DC number can be given either as a straight number (like 15), or as a calculation; 12 plus the hag's intelligence modifier of +3 for a total of 15 (a modifier is shown as a + or - number next to an attribute). That DC is then the number which must be met or exceeded in the save roll.
Then, any save will tell you the attribute (like charisma) you should use. You will need to know your modifier for that attribute. Also you might be "proficient" in certain types of save, in which case your proficiency bonus is also added. So in an example where you are a lvl 3 character with 14 charisma and proficient in charisma saves - your overall charisma save modifier would be +2 (from charisma) and +2 (from proficiency) for +4 total. The character sheet tool on this site will handle all that and just give you each save modifier. This means you roll the d20 and add 4 - with the total trying to equal or exceeded the DC of the save. The DC 15 from above would need you to roll at least an 11 +4 to pass the save - less than 11 and you would fail.
In another case it might be you casting a spell on the hag, and the hag would need to roll its save to beat your spellcasting DC. Some creatures are much better at certain saves than others, so you would target a Dexterity save effect at a slow creature, a Constitution save effect against a frail creature, an Intelligence save against a stupid creature, and so on.
I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?
Your own saving throw modifier depends on the appropriate ability score and whether you are proficient in that particular saving throw. For example, a Fighter is proficient in STR and CON saves, so its saving throw modifier against spells which require a CON save would be its CON modifier plus its Proficiency Modifier. Since your proficiency modifier increases as you go up levels, a Fighter will get better at CON saving throws. However, a Fighter is not proficient in WIS saves, so its WIS saving throw modifier will always be only its WIS modifier and will not increase as it goes up levels.
That is a simplification, some subclasses get additional saving throw proficiencies, they can also be gained through certain feats, magical items may have an effect, and attributes can be increased with ASIs, but those are the basics.
In the above, what is the spell save DC for my character? Does "The spell save DC is 12 + the hag's Intelligence modifier..." mean "the number the hag needs to overcome to successfully save..." Or "The number my character needs to save against a spell the hag makes against me..." ?
The second one:
The DC is set by the caster of the spell.
The saving throw is made by the creature affected by the spell. Who rolls a d20, adds the appropriate stat modifier, and might also be proficient in the saving throw. The number of the dndbeyond character sheet in the "saving throws" section is the number that you add to the d20 roll to try and equal or exceed the DC.
To summarize: the one creating the effect determines the save DC, the one effected by the effect makes the roll and adds their own modifiers (ability mod + maybe proficiency if proficient).
In your example, the night hag has a spell save DC of 15 (12 + it's INT of +3). You have to make a charisma save that matches or beats that. You rolled 13 on the d20, now you need to add your charisma modifier and proficiency bonus (if you are a bard/cleric/paladin/sorcerer/warlock), plus any other bonuses you may be getting from magic items or class features. If your final number is 15 or higher, you succeed.
A couple of things ... as mentioned the DC is the number that the target of the spell needs to roll equal to or higher than in order to succeed on a saving throw against the effect.
Example: A creature casts a hold person spell against a character - the DC for the creatures spell is 12 (from the monster stat block). The character is a fighter, they have to make a wisdom save against hold person, they are not proficient with wisdom saves and their wisdom is 12 for a +1 modifier. The fighter rolls the die and has to roll 11+ (11+1 stat modifier) to succeed on their wisdom saving throw in this case.
In your example, if the hag's intelligence was 14, they would have a +2 modifier, so the DC to resist their spells would be DC=12+2=14. This means that the target of the spell would need to roll 14 or more (using the appropriate type of saving throw which is specified by the spell or effect ... i.e. strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw).
I think your confusion may be coming from the following comment:
"I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?"
Unless a character is proficient in a saving throw or they increase their related stat, saving throws for a level 20 character will be the same as when they were level 1. A level 1 fighter with 8 charisma will have a -1 to charisma saving throws. If they do not gain proficiency in charisma saving throws or increase their charisma stat then the same fighter at level 20 will also have a -1 to their charisma saving throws. Saving throw modifiers for characters will only increase by level if the character is proficient with the save or they increase the related statistic.
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As an example, the spell Banishment is 4th level and requires a charisma saving throw to avoid the effect. Banishment can affect an additional creature for each higher spell slot used to cast it. A 7th level spell slot would affect 4 creatures. An intelligent opponent in tier 3 might look at a party with some rangers, fighters, barbarians or wizards and decide to probably take them out of the fight temporarily by casting Banishment since most fighters/barbarian/wizard will not be proficient with charisma saving throws and may have quite low charisma since they would likely be focusing on other stats. A high level caster could have a spell DC of 17 or 18 (8 +5 stat, +4 proficiency = spell DC of 17) which means that these characters might have a difficult time making the saving throw against Banishment. On the other hand, bards, warlocks, clerics, paladins, and sorcerers all have proficiency in charisma saves and four of those classes would be increasing their charisma so their saving throw modifiers would be quite high.
I think your confusion may be coming from the following comment:
"I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?"
Unless a character is proficient in a saving throw or they increase their related stat, saving throws for a level 20 character will be the same as when they were level 1. A level 1 fighter with 8 charisma will have a -1 to charisma saving throws. If they do not gain proficiency in charisma saving throws or increase their charisma stat then the same fighter at level 20 will also have a -1 to their charisma saving throws. Saving throw modifiers for characters will only increase by level if the character is proficient with the save or they increase the related statistic.
-----
As an example, the spell Banishment is 4th level and requires a charisma saving throw to avoid the effect. Banishment can affect an additional creature for each higher spell slot used to cast it. A 7th level spell slot would affect 4 creatures. An intelligent opponent in tier 3 might look at a party with some rangers, fighters, barbarians or wizards and decide to probably take them out of the fight temporarily by casting Banishment since most fighters/barbarian/wizard will not be proficient with charisma saving throws and may have quite low charisma since they would likely be focusing on other stats. A high level caster could have a spell DC of 17 or 18 (8 +5 stat, +4 proficiency = spell DC of 17) which means that these characters might have a difficult time making the saving throw against Banishment. On the other hand, bards, warlocks, clerics, paladins, and sorcerers all have proficiency in charisma saves and four of those classes would be increasing their charisma so their saving throw modifiers would be quite high.
While all that is true a higher level party has more or more powerful tools to succeed against a saving throw below is a far from comprehensive list.:
You are proficient in at least two stats, as David mentiond you modifiers for these will increase as you level
Also as David mentioned any ability you increase using an ASI will help you succeed in saving throws of that type
You might tkae the lucky feat allowing you to reroll ifyou roll badly
There are a few ways to gain proficency in another ability, the most common is to take the resilint feat but there are others, Gloomstalker rangers and Samurai fighters get proficiency in Wis saves at level 7 and monks get proficency in ALL saves at level 14 (and they can reroll if they need to).
A level 6 paladin and any allies within 10 ft of him can add his charisma modifier to saving throws they make (as the paladin levels up that charisma modifier is likely to increase (and at level 18 you can be up to 30ft from the paladin)
A bard can give a player bardic inspiration for a low level bard the recipiant can then choose to add a d6 to their saving throw roll but at higher levels this increases to a d8, d10 and eventually d12. The number of uses is tied to the Bard's charisma so as they level it it can be used more times
You are likely to find magic items such as a cloak of protection that enables you to increase your modifier.
Having said that a high level character is generally very vulnerable to an effect that forces a saving throw in an ability that is not a focus of theirs and they are not proficient in.
For example we have "plane shift": The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. So I toss my die- I get a 13. Soooo.... what am I comparing that 13 to? My Charisma? Or the hag's?
Ah! OK- thanks for the replies!
So if I have +1 to my Charisma, then the spell save DC is 12 + 3 (Int modifier) == 15. My roll is 13, +1 because of my CHA, for a total of 14. Thus, I'm doomed! :-)
For example we have "plane shift": The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. So I toss my die- I get a 13. Soooo.... what am I comparing that 13 to? My Charisma? Or the hag's?
Ah! OK- thanks for the replies!
So if I have +1 to my Charisma, then the spell save DC is 12 + 3 (Int modifier) == 15. My roll is 13, +1 because of my CHA, for a total of 14. Thus, I'm doomed! :-)
Probably, unless you were proficient in the save from your class or you had a magic item or nearby paladin giving a bonus.
Hello, So as much as I've read about saving throws and Difficulty Classes, I'm still confused: What number do I need to hit for the saving throw to be successful? Let's take a scenario: my PC is fighting one of three night hags, who is part of a coven. This hag has a number of spells, described as:
Shared Spellcasting. While all three members of a hag coven are within 30 feet of one another, they can each cast ... spells from the wizard’s spell list ....(spells are listed)... The spell save DC is 12 + the hag’s Intelligence modifier, and the spell attack bonus is 4 + the hag’s Intelligence modifier.
In the above, what is the spell save DC for my character? Does "The spell save DC is 12 + the hag's Intelligence modifier..." mean "the number the hag needs to overcome to successfully save..." Or "The number my character needs to save against a spell the hag makes against me..." ? I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?
For example we have "plane shift": The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. So I toss my die- I get a 13. Soooo.... what am I comparing that 13 to? My Charisma? Or the hag's?
Thanks.
Here's an example:
A Level 9 Wizard casts Cone Of Cold, catching a Level 9 Fighter in the area of effect. The Fighter has to make a Constitution saving throw. Let's say the Fighter's Constitution score is 18, for a +4 mod. Fighters are proficient in Con saves, so they also add their proficiency bonus, which is +4 at Level 9. That means the Fighter will add a total of +8 to their roll. The number they have to beat is based on the Wizard's Spell Save DC. The formula for a Wizard's DC is 8 + their Proficiency Bonus + their Intelligence modifier. Let's say their Int is 20, so their Spell Save DC would be 8 + 4 + 5 for 17. The Fighter rolls a 12 on the die, adds +8 for a total of 20, SUCCESS! According to the wording of the spell Cone Of Cold, the Fighter only takes half damage from the spell!
Thankfully, you normally don't have to figure out all of that stuff each time. A standard character sheet will list your modifiers for each of the saving throw types you have to make, and if you're a spellcaster there will be a box for your Spell Save DC that other people will have to hit when rolling saves against spells you cast.
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Hello, So as much as I've read about saving throws and Difficulty Classes, I'm still confused: What number do I need to hit for the saving throw to be successful? Let's take a scenario: my PC is fighting one of three night hags, who is part of a coven. This hag has a number of spells, described as:
In the above, what is the spell save DC for my character? Does "The spell save DC is 12 + the hag's Intelligence modifier..." mean "the number the hag needs to overcome to successfully save..." Or "The number my character needs to save against a spell the hag makes against me..." ? I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?
For example we have "plane shift": The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. So I toss my die- I get a 13. Soooo.... what am I comparing that 13 to? My Charisma? Or the hag's?
Thanks.
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- GreyGnome
Remember when rolling a saving throw, it is the victim/target of the effect that rolls the dice - to save themselves from the danger. The Difficulty Class (DC) is a reflection of how difficult it will be to save - a higher number is harder.
A DC number can be given either as a straight number (like 15), or as a calculation; 12 plus the hag's intelligence modifier of +3 for a total of 15 (a modifier is shown as a + or - number next to an attribute). That DC is then the number which must be met or exceeded in the save roll.
Then, any save will tell you the attribute (like charisma) you should use. You will need to know your modifier for that attribute. Also you might be "proficient" in certain types of save, in which case your proficiency bonus is also added. So in an example where you are a lvl 3 character with 14 charisma and proficient in charisma saves - your overall charisma save modifier would be +2 (from charisma) and +2 (from proficiency) for +4 total. The character sheet tool on this site will handle all that and just give you each save modifier. This means you roll the d20 and add 4 - with the total trying to equal or exceeded the DC of the save. The DC 15 from above would need you to roll at least an 11 +4 to pass the save - less than 11 and you would fail.
In another case it might be you casting a spell on the hag, and the hag would need to roll its save to beat your spellcasting DC. Some creatures are much better at certain saves than others, so you would target a Dexterity save effect at a slow creature, a Constitution save effect against a frail creature, an Intelligence save against a stupid creature, and so on.
Your own saving throw modifier depends on the appropriate ability score and whether you are proficient in that particular saving throw. For example, a Fighter is proficient in STR and CON saves, so its saving throw modifier against spells which require a CON save would be its CON modifier plus its Proficiency Modifier. Since your proficiency modifier increases as you go up levels, a Fighter will get better at CON saving throws. However, a Fighter is not proficient in WIS saves, so its WIS saving throw modifier will always be only its WIS modifier and will not increase as it goes up levels.
That is a simplification, some subclasses get additional saving throw proficiencies, they can also be gained through certain feats, magical items may have an effect, and attributes can be increased with ASIs, but those are the basics.
The second one:
The DC is set by the caster of the spell.
The saving throw is made by the creature affected by the spell. Who rolls a d20, adds the appropriate stat modifier, and might also be proficient in the saving throw. The number of the dndbeyond character sheet in the "saving throws" section is the number that you add to the d20 roll to try and equal or exceed the DC.
I suggest reading up on the saving throw rules: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/using-ability-scores#SavingThrows
To summarize: the one creating the effect determines the save DC, the one effected by the effect makes the roll and adds their own modifiers (ability mod + maybe proficiency if proficient).
In your example, the night hag has a spell save DC of 15 (12 + it's INT of +3). You have to make a charisma save that matches or beats that. You rolled 13 on the d20, now you need to add your charisma modifier and proficiency bonus (if you are a bard/cleric/paladin/sorcerer/warlock), plus any other bonuses you may be getting from magic items or class features. If your final number is 15 or higher, you succeed.
A couple of things ... as mentioned the DC is the number that the target of the spell needs to roll equal to or higher than in order to succeed on a saving throw against the effect.
Example: A creature casts a hold person spell against a character - the DC for the creatures spell is 12 (from the monster stat block). The character is a fighter, they have to make a wisdom save against hold person, they are not proficient with wisdom saves and their wisdom is 12 for a +1 modifier. The fighter rolls the die and has to roll 11+ (11+1 stat modifier) to succeed on their wisdom saving throw in this case.
In your example, if the hag's intelligence was 14, they would have a +2 modifier, so the DC to resist their spells would be DC=12+2=14. This means that the target of the spell would need to roll 14 or more (using the appropriate type of saving throw which is specified by the spell or effect ... i.e. strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom or charisma saving throw).
I think your confusion may be coming from the following comment:
"I may have a level 10 character and it should be easier for me to save than, say, a level 1 character. So the spell save DC should not be constant across all PC levels- no?"
Unless a character is proficient in a saving throw or they increase their related stat, saving throws for a level 20 character will be the same as when they were level 1. A level 1 fighter with 8 charisma will have a -1 to charisma saving throws. If they do not gain proficiency in charisma saving throws or increase their charisma stat then the same fighter at level 20 will also have a -1 to their charisma saving throws. Saving throw modifiers for characters will only increase by level if the character is proficient with the save or they increase the related statistic.
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As an example, the spell Banishment is 4th level and requires a charisma saving throw to avoid the effect. Banishment can affect an additional creature for each higher spell slot used to cast it. A 7th level spell slot would affect 4 creatures. An intelligent opponent in tier 3 might look at a party with some rangers, fighters, barbarians or wizards and decide to probably take them out of the fight temporarily by casting Banishment since most fighters/barbarian/wizard will not be proficient with charisma saving throws and may have quite low charisma since they would likely be focusing on other stats. A high level caster could have a spell DC of 17 or 18 (8 +5 stat, +4 proficiency = spell DC of 17) which means that these characters might have a difficult time making the saving throw against Banishment. On the other hand, bards, warlocks, clerics, paladins, and sorcerers all have proficiency in charisma saves and four of those classes would be increasing their charisma so their saving throw modifiers would be quite high.
While all that is true a higher level party has more or more powerful tools to succeed against a saving throw below is a far from comprehensive list.:
Having said that a high level character is generally very vulnerable to an effect that forces a saving throw in an ability that is not a focus of theirs and they are not proficient in.
Ah! OK- thanks for the replies!
So if I have +1 to my Charisma, then the spell save DC is 12 + 3 (Int modifier) == 15. My roll is 13, +1 because of my CHA, for a total of 14. Thus, I'm doomed! :-)
--
- GreyGnome
Probably, unless you were proficient in the save from your class or you had a magic item or nearby paladin giving a bonus.
Here's an example:
A Level 9 Wizard casts Cone Of Cold, catching a Level 9 Fighter in the area of effect. The Fighter has to make a Constitution saving throw. Let's say the Fighter's Constitution score is 18, for a +4 mod. Fighters are proficient in Con saves, so they also add their proficiency bonus, which is +4 at Level 9. That means the Fighter will add a total of +8 to their roll. The number they have to beat is based on the Wizard's Spell Save DC. The formula for a Wizard's DC is 8 + their Proficiency Bonus + their Intelligence modifier. Let's say their Int is 20, so their Spell Save DC would be 8 + 4 + 5 for 17. The Fighter rolls a 12 on the die, adds +8 for a total of 20, SUCCESS! According to the wording of the spell Cone Of Cold, the Fighter only takes half damage from the spell!
Thankfully, you normally don't have to figure out all of that stuff each time. A standard character sheet will list your modifiers for each of the saving throw types you have to make, and if you're a spellcaster there will be a box for your Spell Save DC that other people will have to hit when rolling saves against spells you cast.