Assume you are a caster (Warlock, Arcana Cleric, etc) whom uses a whip (only one handed reach weapon). You also take the Warcaster feat. Now you have 5ft reach and the Warcaster feat specifies that movement based AoO can be taken with a spell instead of the weapon.
To really screw with it, attack with a movement based spell attack, such as Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, Lightning Lure, etc, pulling them closer to you or ending their movement.
Have I missed something or is this a nasty little tactic about as good as Sentinel (speed becomes as 0)?
The whip is a martial weapon, which means you need to take one of a very few set of subclasses or multiclass or take a feat to access it. For example, Arcana isn't one of the cleric domains that gets martial weapons.
The whip is a martial weapon, which means you need to take one of a very few set of subclasses or multiclass or take a feat to access it. For example, Arcana isn't one of the cleric domains that gets martial weapons.
You can use a whip regardless, if you aren't proficient then you just don't get to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
Assume you are a caster (Warlock, Arcana Cleric, etc) whom uses a whip (only one handed reach weapon). You also take the Warcaster feat. Now you have 5ft reach and the Warcaster feat specifies that movement based AoO can be taken with a spell instead of the weapon.
To really screw with it, attack with a movement based spell attack, such as Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, Lightning Lure, etc, pulling them closer to you or ending their movement.
Have I missed something or is this a nasty little tactic about as good as Sentinel (speed becomes as 0)?
What is the relevance of having a whip and the Warcaster feat?
Did you mean that since whip is a reach weapon you have 10 ft reach?
If you allow the AOO with a reach of 10 ft, a Lightning Lure only reduces effectively subtracts 10 ft from the speed of the enemy moving away. Nothing particularly special about that.
You have to consider a few things. Although I will admit it's half tricky so consulting with the DM should be a thing.
So reach, at least from my understanding, is defined by the weapon you wield, to figure out if you can make opportunity attacks against hostile creatures... if you were wielding a whip that would be 15 feet (also it should be noted if you are not a class that is not proficient in the weapon, by RAW you can still wield said weapon.. and it would still define your reach as being 15 feet.. but you would never be able to add your proficiency bonus to said weapon). Also, this is all moot because really you would only care about the fact that your whip gives you a reach of 15 feet because you wouldn't be using that because this is considering warcaster.
At that point though you'd have to consider what spell you are using. Lightning Lure (which I had to go back and repost in that thread once I realized my mistake) would be mostly useless... they'd still get pulled towards you if they fail (up to ten feet) but that spell does not end movement, so they could still move away... so if it succeeds they'd take damage (as in they fail the save) and they might not fully be able to go where they intended too... so it kind of works. Yet lightning lure would not stop movement.
Other spells that can stop or reduce movement could possibly create a sentinel like intention but it really is going to depend on the spell.
You don't need to be proficient with a weapon to use that weapon.
A whip's reach is +5 feet. (generally that makes it 10 feet)
You still have a 5 foot reach with unarmed attacks even if you wield a reach weapon, so do in fact have two reaches while wielding a reach weapon.
That said, OP, this can be a useful combo, especially for a warcaster with a free hand that can be used to hold a weapon they don't ever intend to actually attack with. It effectively adds a second reach, so more opportunity attack converted into spellcast options in fights. Is it as good as sentinel at locking down enemies? Not especially. It is different, though. Like, you have a lot more options, because, well, magic. But you'll probably be using resources for the really good effects.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Have I missed something or is this a nasty little tactic about as good as Sentinel (speed becomes as 0)?
One of us missed something, because I don't see how warcaster with a whip and spells that slow/drag reduces speed by more than 5+the spell's reduction.
What is really good is for a warlock with warcaster to take PAM so they can repelling blast any enemy that gets within 10 feet of them. It kind of works opposite from your example, but as early as level 5 you can potentially keep a single melee enemy with less than 45 feet of movement from reaching you without having to retreat.
The whip is a martial weapon, which means you need to take one of a very few set of subclasses or multiclass or take a feat to access it. For example, Arcana isn't one of the cleric domains that gets martial weapons.
You can use a whip regardless, if you aren't proficient then you just don't get to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
Good point. But since that's the case, it doesn't make any difference what reach weapon you use. You can hold a 2h weapon in one, and reach still tells you that it adds to the distance that opportunity attacks can be made. I guess whip is the cheapest option though.
The other reach weapons (besides the whip) are two handed weapons, and I forgot that a) War Caster lets you cast even if you are using a two handed weapon and b) you can switch to 1 handed without using an action. I wanted one hand free so that you can cast.
The other reach weapons (besides the whip) are two handed weapons, and I forgot that a) War Caster lets you cast even if you are using a two handed weapon and b) you can switch to 1 handed without using an action. I wanted one hand free so that you can cast.
"This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." means "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." Nothing there says you have to wield the weapon for that reach bonus for opportunity attacks.
The other reach weapons (besides the whip) are two handed weapons, and I forgot that a) War Caster lets you cast even if you are using a two handed weapon and b) you can switch to 1 handed without using an action. I wanted one hand free so that you can cast.
"This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." means "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." Nothing there says you have to wield the weapon for that reach bonus for opportunity attacks.
But the increased distance of reach for a reach weapon only counts for when you're doing an opportunity attack with that weapon.
So you can't use the increased reach for casting a spell with War Caster.
But you don’t have to, War Caster allows you to cast a spell, and the spell’s range is what determines what distance that spell can reach. All you’re looking for from the weapon is an increased range to trigger the opportunity attack, which is provided by a reach weapon regardless of whether you hold it with 1 or 2 hands.
Edit: unless you’re saying that reach and War Caster never combine. If that’s the case, I’m not sure if I’ve seen that interpretation before.
But you don’t have to, War Caster allows you to cast a spell, and the spell’s range is what determines what distance that spell can reach. All you’re looking for from the weapon is an increased range to trigger the opportunity attack, which is provided by a reach weapon regardless of whether you hold it with 1 or 2 hands.
Edit: unless you’re saying that reach and War Caster never combine. If that’s the case, I’m not sure if I’ve seen that interpretation before.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
But you don’t have to, War Caster allows you to cast a spell, and the spell’s range is what determines what distance that spell can reach. All you’re looking for from the weapon is an increased range to trigger the opportunity attack, which is provided by a reach weapon regardless of whether you hold it with 1 or 2 hands.
Edit: unless you’re saying that reach and War Caster never combine. If that’s the case, I’m not sure if I’ve seen that interpretation before.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
Then whether the item is a whip or any other reach weapon, the entire point of this thread is moot.
But you don’t have to, War Caster allows you to cast a spell, and the spell’s range is what determines what distance that spell can reach. All you’re looking for from the weapon is an increased range to trigger the opportunity attack, which is provided by a reach weapon regardless of whether you hold it with 1 or 2 hands.
Edit: unless you’re saying that reach and War Caster never combine. If that’s the case, I’m not sure if I’ve seen that interpretation before.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
Warcaster replaces the opportunity attack with a spell, so does in fact benefit from the increased reach.
Provoke at 10ft? Sub out for a spell via warcaster.
Order of operations:
Basic Rule: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.
Modified by Reach weapon: This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it.
Modified by warcaster: When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack.
So they provoke when leaving 10ft from you and your whip, which allows you to make an opportunity attack. You can instead, rather, cast a spell as a reaction.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
Warcaster replaces the opportunity attack with a spell, so does in fact benefit from the increased reach.
Provoke at 10ft? Sub out for a spell via warcaster.
Except that you don't provoke at 10'.
The rules on Reach reads: "Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack." The rules on the Reach property of weapons says: "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." If you do not attack with a weapon with the Reach property, your reach remains 5' and so you cannot make opportunity attacks at 10'. You don't provoke an opportunity attack at 10' by having a reach weapon in hand, rather, you are allowed to make an opportunity attack at 10' with a reach weapon. It is the act of attacking with the reach weapon that creates the additional 5' of reach, it does not exist until you do.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
Warcaster replaces the opportunity attack with a spell, so does in fact benefit from the increased reach.
Provoke at 10ft? Sub out for a spell via warcaster.
Except that you don't provoke at 10'.
The rules on Reach reads: "Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack." The rules on the Reach property of weapons says: "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." If you do not attack with a weapon with the Reach property, your reach remains 5' and so you cannot make opportunity attacks at 10'. You don't provoke an opportunity attack at 10' by having a reach weapon in hand, rather, you are allowed to make an opportunity attack at 10' with a reach weapon. It is the act of attacking with the reach weapon that creates the additional 5' of reach, it does not exist until you do.
You cannot attack with it if the enemy doesn't provoke. Saying your reach is only 10ft for the attack, not for the provoking of the attack, means you actually cannot use opportunity attacks with reach weapons beyond 5ft.
You've logic knotted yourself into a contradiction.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Lets do some basic fill in the blank/substitutions based on what the rules say:
Basic Rule: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.
Lets fill in the blank for defined reach.
Basic+Defined: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach5ft.
Now we apply Reach property: This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it.
Basic+Defined+Reach: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach5ft10ft.
Now finish it off with adding in warcaster.
Basic+Defined+Reach+Warcaster: You can make an opportunity attack, or you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach5ft10ft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Assume you are a caster (Warlock, Arcana Cleric, etc) whom uses a whip (only one handed reach weapon). You also take the Warcaster feat. Now you have 5ft reach and the Warcaster feat specifies that movement based AoO can be taken with a spell instead of the weapon.
To really screw with it, attack with a movement based spell attack, such as Lance of Lethargy, Grasp of Hadar, Lightning Lure, etc, pulling them closer to you or ending their movement.
Have I missed something or is this a nasty little tactic about as good as Sentinel (speed becomes as 0)?
The whip is a martial weapon, which means you need to take one of a very few set of subclasses or multiclass or take a feat to access it. For example, Arcana isn't one of the cleric domains that gets martial weapons.
You can use a whip regardless, if you aren't proficient then you just don't get to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.
What is the relevance of having a whip and the Warcaster feat?
Did you mean that since whip is a reach weapon you have 10 ft reach?
If you allow the AOO with a reach of 10 ft, a Lightning Lure only reduces effectively subtracts 10 ft from the speed of the enemy moving away. Nothing particularly special about that.
You have to consider a few things. Although I will admit it's half tricky so consulting with the DM should be a thing.
So reach, at least from my understanding, is defined by the weapon you wield, to figure out if you can make opportunity attacks against hostile creatures... if you were wielding a whip that would be 15 feet (also it should be noted if you are not a class that is not proficient in the weapon, by RAW you can still wield said weapon.. and it would still define your reach as being 15 feet.. but you would never be able to add your proficiency bonus to said weapon). Also, this is all moot because really you would only care about the fact that your whip gives you a reach of 15 feet because you wouldn't be using that because this is considering warcaster.
At that point though you'd have to consider what spell you are using. Lightning Lure (which I had to go back and repost in that thread once I realized my mistake) would be mostly useless... they'd still get pulled towards you if they fail (up to ten feet) but that spell does not end movement, so they could still move away... so if it succeeds they'd take damage (as in they fail the save) and they might not fully be able to go where they intended too... so it kind of works. Yet lightning lure would not stop movement.
Other spells that can stop or reduce movement could possibly create a sentinel like intention but it really is going to depend on the spell.
A few corrects from earlier posts in this thread.
That said, OP, this can be a useful combo, especially for a warcaster with a free hand that can be used to hold a weapon they don't ever intend to actually attack with. It effectively adds a second reach, so more opportunity attack converted into spellcast options in fights. Is it as good as sentinel at locking down enemies? Not especially. It is different, though. Like, you have a lot more options, because, well, magic. But you'll probably be using resources for the really good effects.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I have often wondered where the 15ft reach thing came from. I see it a lot.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Bugbears?
One of us missed something, because I don't see how warcaster with a whip and spells that slow/drag reduces speed by more than 5+the spell's reduction.
What is really good is for a warlock with warcaster to take PAM so they can repelling blast any enemy that gets within 10 feet of them. It kind of works opposite from your example, but as early as level 5 you can potentially keep a single melee enemy with less than 45 feet of movement from reaching you without having to retreat.
Good point. But since that's the case, it doesn't make any difference what reach weapon you use. You can hold a 2h weapon in one, and reach still tells you that it adds to the distance that opportunity attacks can be made. I guess whip is the cheapest option though.
The other reach weapons (besides the whip) are two handed weapons, and I forgot that a) War Caster lets you cast even if you are using a two handed weapon and b) you can switch to 1 handed without using an action. I wanted one hand free so that you can cast.
"This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." means "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." Nothing there says you have to wield the weapon for that reach bonus for opportunity attacks.
But the increased distance of reach for a reach weapon only counts for when you're doing an opportunity attack with that weapon.
So you can't use the increased reach for casting a spell with War Caster.
But you don’t have to, War Caster allows you to cast a spell, and the spell’s range is what determines what distance that spell can reach. All you’re looking for from the weapon is an increased range to trigger the opportunity attack, which is provided by a reach weapon regardless of whether you hold it with 1 or 2 hands.
Edit: unless you’re saying that reach and War Caster never combine. If that’s the case, I’m not sure if I’ve seen that interpretation before.
The wording of the "reach" clearly identifies that the reach only applies to OAs with it. So War caster won't benefit from the increased reach.
Then whether the item is a whip or any other reach weapon, the entire point of this thread is moot.
Not quite moot, simply stating that the assumptions of the OP are wrong.
Warcaster replaces the opportunity attack with a spell, so does in fact benefit from the increased reach.
Provoke at 10ft? Sub out for a spell via warcaster.
Order of operations:
So they provoke when leaving 10ft from you and your whip, which allows you to make an opportunity attack. You can instead, rather, cast a spell as a reaction.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Except that you don't provoke at 10'.
The rules on Reach reads: "Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack." The rules on the Reach property of weapons says: "This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it." If you do not attack with a weapon with the Reach property, your reach remains 5' and so you cannot make opportunity attacks at 10'. You don't provoke an opportunity attack at 10' by having a reach weapon in hand, rather, you are allowed to make an opportunity attack at 10' with a reach weapon. It is the act of attacking with the reach weapon that creates the additional 5' of reach, it does not exist until you do.
You cannot attack with it if the enemy doesn't provoke. Saying your reach is only 10ft for the attack, not for the provoking of the attack, means you actually cannot use opportunity attacks with reach weapons beyond 5ft.
You've logic knotted yourself into a contradiction.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Lets do some basic fill in the blank/substitutions based on what the rules say:
Lets fill in the blank for defined reach.
your reach5ft.Now we apply Reach property: This weapon adds 5 feet to your reach when you attack with it, as well as when determining your reach for opportunity attacks with it.
your reach5ft10ft.Now finish it off with adding in warcaster.
your reach5ft10ft.I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.