I'm planning on playing a Circle of Spores Druid, who can expend a use of wild shape to activate 'Symbiotic Entity' and gain certain benefits, including temporary hit-points. However, this ability ends if the temporary hit-points run out. You can only have one source of temporary hit-points at a time, so what would happen if I received a different source of temp HP? Would the Symbiotic Entity feature now last until the new source of temp HP is diminished, or would it just end immediately?
It is a badly worded ability and so is likely to vary from table to table. At my game the temp hit points it provides need to be present so once gone the ability ends. You can't top them up from another source to prolong the duration of symbiotic entity. But that's just my interpretation, other DM's will have their own.
"These benefits last for 10 minutes, until you lose all these temporary hit points, or until you use your Wild Shape again."
Bolded and italiced the key word for emphasis. The ability works when you have temporary hit points specifically from that feature, so replacing those temporary hit points with those from another source would immediately end the effects of that feature. Unless stated otherwise, any spell or feature that gives you temporary hit points and a unique ability from said temporary hit points, such as the Armor of Agathys spell, works exactly the same way as well.
Thanks for the responses everyone, this is the conclusion I reached too. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a distinction between 'losing' and 'replacing' the hit-points, which there clearly isn't, as the emphasis is on having 'these' hit-points. Thanks all for clarifying!
Temp hit points are never replaced, they are overlapped.
That is, if you get 5 temp hitpoints from something, you keep them, even if you later get 9. It's just that anything that does damage reduces both the 5 and the 9.
When your 5 are depleted by damage, anything related to it vanishes as well.
Temp hit points are never replaced, they are overlapped.
That is, if you get 5 temp hitpoints from something, you keep them, even if you later get 9. It's just that anything that does damage reduces both the 5 and the 9.
That is absolutely false. The rules are quite clear, and have been quoted in this thread already by pocketmouse:
"[T]hey can't be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."
If you gain the new temp HP, you do not get to keep the ones you have.
Temp hit points are never replaced, they are overlapped.
That is, if you get 5 temp hitpoints from something, you keep them, even if you later get 9. It's just that anything that does damage reduces both the 5 and the 9.
That is absolutely false. The rules are quite clear, and have been quoted in this thread already by pocketmouse:
"[T]hey can't be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."
If you gain the new temp HP, you do not get to keep the ones you have.
What he said and what you're saying are not in disagreement. If they are overlapping then you are not "adding them together". Because they'd be overlapping.
I run it this way, whether that is RAW or not idrc. It makes more sense to allow them to overlap so rider effects like the spores don't get knocked off by other beneficial effects. Because that'd make no sense. How does it make sense that something like heroism prematurely ends druid spores? Solution? Don't let it. Let the thp overlap.
Eg, say spores only has 1 thp left and you get taged with heroism that gives 5 thp. Well, now you got 5 thp. Then some bloke decks you for 1 damage. Down to 4 thp, but that 1 damage was enough to knock out your last spore thp so that effect ends.
Idk, ymmv. Maybe it is more work I'm taking on tracking extra stuff but it's never been an issue at the table and it makes more sense than whatever the common wisdom seems to be.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Temp hit points are never replaced, they are overlapped.
That is, if you get 5 temp hitpoints from something, you keep them, even if you later get 9. It's just that anything that does damage reduces both the 5 and the 9.
That is absolutely false. The rules are quite clear, and have been quoted in this thread already by pocketmouse:
"[T]hey can't be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."
If you gain the new temp HP, you do not get to keep the ones you have.
What he said and what you're saying are not in disagreement. If they are overlapping then you are not "adding them together". Because they'd be overlapping.
They are, in fact, quite starkly in disagreement. Whether or not they're being added together doesn't matter. The rules are very clear. If you take the new ones, you don't get to keep the old ones. If you aren't keeping the old ones, there's no overlap.
Whether or not they're being added together doesn't matter. The rules are very clear.
The rule, which is very clearly discussing not adding them together.:
Healing can’t restore temporary hit points, and they can’t be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. For example, if a spell grants you 12 temporary hit points when you already have 10, you can have 12 or 10, not 22.
Not adding them together is the core and central theme to this whole paragraph. it very much does matter.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Whether or not they're being added together doesn't matter. The rules are very clear.
The rule, which is very clearly discussing not adding them together.:
Healing can’t restore temporary hit points, and they can’t be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. For example, if a spell grants you 12 temporary hit points when you already have 10, you can have 12 or 10, not 22.
Not adding them together is the core and central theme to this whole paragraph. it very much does matter.
Not adding together is indeed important, but it is not the only point the paragraph is making. And whether it is possible to add them together doesn't matter, because that is not the element of this paragraph which doesn't allow having two temp HP effects at once.
You can never have temporary HP from two sources. If you already have temp HP and another effect is about to give you more then there are exactly two options: keep the ones you have (and therefore don't gain the new ones) or do not keep the ones you have and gain the new temp HP. There is no option to gain the new ones and also keep the old ones somehow overlapped.
You have indicated that your ruling is probably not RAW. Indeed we agree it is not. RAW and RAI is that you can't have two sources of temp HP, and that by extension you cannot have the side effects of temp HP from two different sources at the same time.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Pretty sure it's intentionally baked in to RAW and RAI, by the fact that they spell out that you get to choose whether or not to take the new source of THP. Risk vs reward.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
I would imagine it is an unintended side effect (and maybe a DM could rule to change it in their game), but that doesn't make it any less true. We have Temp HP rules that tell you that you can only keep one set of them, and we have rules that key off of having particular temp HP. Intended or not, the consequence of the RAW that we have is what plaguescarred describes.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
I'm fairly sure it's both RAW and RAI, this to have the benefits ending when you lose all these THP and thus avoid using other source of THP to extend it beyond their depletion.
PS On a less serious note, i thought you were thinking invoking DM's rule 0 was a terrible advice in Rule Forum Q&A ? ☺
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
I'm fairly sure it's both RAW and RAI, this to have the benefits ending when you lose all these THP and thus avoid using other source of THP to extend it beyond their depletion.
If they're overlapping they wouldn't "extend the benefit". If you have an effect based on 1 thp, but then got another 20thp from another source you'd be at 20 thp and the 1st point of damage you took would drop you to 19thp and loss of the thp rider effect. If, that's how you ruled it.
PS On a less serious note, i thought you were thinking invoking DM's rule 0 was a terrible advice in Rule Forum Q&A ? ☺
No, Rule 0 is great. I homebrew all the time depending on the needs of the setting and story. My point you're probably referencing was; if I was invoking rule 0 to support my argument I would say so, and people saying my argument was rule 0 were wrong, because I wasn't saying anything about rule 0. If a specific rule says something like "at the DM's option" then the DM decides the thing here, and that isn't a rule 0, that's just the rule itself.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
The rules on this topic is so clearly stated, and the consequences are so obvious, that it's hard to imagine this being unintended. Personally I think the designers simply made a choice to prioritise game balance and simplicity over a completely coherent narrative (which the individual DMs are left to provide).
The rule works perfectly fine as is, and doesn't conflict with other rules as far as I am aware. To me, this topic is very far from being similar to the rules on visibility, which seems to be contradictory on multiple occasions. But as in any other game out there, homebrewing rules to suit your taste is always a valid option.
If they're overlapping they wouldn't "extend the benefit". If you have an effect based on 1 thp, but then got another 20thp from another source you'd be at 20 thp and the 1st point of damage you took would drop you to 19thp and loss of the thp rider effect. If, that's how you ruled it.
That's not how i'd rule it. The moment you'd receive 20 THP, the 1 THP from Symbiotic Entity would be lost along with the benefits, since they end when you loose these THP.
The thing is THP never overlap where the duration of different sources can co-exist, instead they succeed one another, if you have some THP and receive some more, they can't be added, you must instead decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. THP you don't keep are lost, thus never overlapping with new ones you gained.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm planning on playing a Circle of Spores Druid, who can expend a use of wild shape to activate 'Symbiotic Entity' and gain certain benefits, including temporary hit-points. However, this ability ends if the temporary hit-points run out. You can only have one source of temporary hit-points at a time, so what would happen if I received a different source of temp HP? Would the Symbiotic Entity feature now last until the new source of temp HP is diminished, or would it just end immediately?
It is a badly worded ability and so is likely to vary from table to table. At my game the temp hit points it provides need to be present so once gone the ability ends. You can't top them up from another source to prolong the duration of symbiotic entity. But that's just my interpretation, other DM's will have their own.
"If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones." So if you want to keep up the effects of Symbiotic Entity you can choose not to take the new temp HP. You could not use a new source of temp HP to fuel the Symbiotic entity, it lasts "until you lose all these temporary hit points."
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
"These benefits last for 10 minutes, until you lose all these temporary hit points, or until you use your Wild Shape again."
Bolded and italiced the key word for emphasis. The ability works when you have temporary hit points specifically from that feature, so replacing those temporary hit points with those from another source would immediately end the effects of that feature. Unless stated otherwise, any spell or feature that gives you temporary hit points and a unique ability from said temporary hit points, such as the Armor of Agathys spell, works exactly the same way as well.
As others have pointed out, it’s not badly worded at all. The text is quite clear that temp HPs from other sources do not suffice.
Thanks for the responses everyone, this is the conclusion I reached too. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a distinction between 'losing' and 'replacing' the hit-points, which there clearly isn't, as the emphasis is on having 'these' hit-points. Thanks all for clarifying!
Temp hit points are never replaced, they are overlapped.
That is, if you get 5 temp hitpoints from something, you keep them, even if you later get 9. It's just that anything that does damage reduces both the 5 and the 9.
When your 5 are depleted by damage, anything related to it vanishes as well.
That is absolutely false. The rules are quite clear, and have been quoted in this thread already by pocketmouse:
"[T]hey can't be added together. If you have temporary hit points and receive more of them, you decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones."
If you gain the new temp HP, you do not get to keep the ones you have.
What he said and what you're saying are not in disagreement. If they are overlapping then you are not "adding them together". Because they'd be overlapping.
I run it this way, whether that is RAW or not idrc. It makes more sense to allow them to overlap so rider effects like the spores don't get knocked off by other beneficial effects. Because that'd make no sense. How does it make sense that something like heroism prematurely ends druid spores? Solution? Don't let it. Let the thp overlap.
Eg, say spores only has 1 thp left and you get taged with heroism that gives 5 thp. Well, now you got 5 thp. Then some bloke decks you for 1 damage. Down to 4 thp, but that 1 damage was enough to knock out your last spore thp so that effect ends.
Idk, ymmv. Maybe it is more work I'm taking on tracking extra stuff but it's never been an issue at the table and it makes more sense than whatever the common wisdom seems to be.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They are, in fact, quite starkly in disagreement. Whether or not they're being added together doesn't matter. The rules are very clear. If you take the new ones, you don't get to keep the old ones. If you aren't keeping the old ones, there's no overlap.
The rule, which is very clearly discussing not adding them together.:
Not adding them together is the core and central theme to this whole paragraph. it very much does matter.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Not adding together is indeed important, but it is not the only point the paragraph is making. And whether it is possible to add them together doesn't matter, because that is not the element of this paragraph which doesn't allow having two temp HP effects at once.
You can never have temporary HP from two sources. If you already have temp HP and another effect is about to give you more then there are exactly two options: keep the ones you have (and therefore don't gain the new ones) or do not keep the ones you have and gain the new temp HP. There is no option to gain the new ones and also keep the old ones somehow overlapped.
You have indicated that your ruling is probably not RAW. Indeed we agree it is not. RAW and RAI is that you can't have two sources of temp HP, and that by extension you cannot have the side effects of temp HP from two different sources at the same time.
I agree with pocketmouse its pretty clear that Symbiotic Entity last only until you loose all these THP., Which happen if you replace them with other THP.
This also doesn't make any practical sense. So DMs, you know, rule 0 exists. Same thing we gotta do for visibility/obscurement rules. Sometime you gotta known what the rule is and then decide on it making sense instead. That's why this can't be the RAI. Maybe a certain reading of the rule gives you this result RAW, yes. But RAI? Naw. Why would being buffed by a beneficial effect cause your spores ability to end prematurely? That's an unintended side effect.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Pretty sure it's intentionally baked in to RAW and RAI, by the fact that they spell out that you get to choose whether or not to take the new source of THP. Risk vs reward.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
I would imagine it is an unintended side effect (and maybe a DM could rule to change it in their game), but that doesn't make it any less true. We have Temp HP rules that tell you that you can only keep one set of them, and we have rules that key off of having particular temp HP. Intended or not, the consequence of the RAW that we have is what plaguescarred describes.
I'm fairly sure it's both RAW and RAI, this to have the benefits ending when you lose all these THP and thus avoid using other source of THP to extend it beyond their depletion.
PS On a less serious note, i thought you were thinking invoking DM's rule 0 was a terrible advice in Rule Forum Q&A ? ☺
If they're overlapping they wouldn't "extend the benefit". If you have an effect based on 1 thp, but then got another 20thp from another source you'd be at 20 thp and the 1st point of damage you took would drop you to 19thp and loss of the thp rider effect. If, that's how you ruled it.
No, Rule 0 is great. I homebrew all the time depending on the needs of the setting and story. My point you're probably referencing was; if I was invoking rule 0 to support my argument I would say so, and people saying my argument was rule 0 were wrong, because I wasn't saying anything about rule 0. If a specific rule says something like "at the DM's option" then the DM decides the thing here, and that isn't a rule 0, that's just the rule itself.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The rules on this topic is so clearly stated, and the consequences are so obvious, that it's hard to imagine this being unintended. Personally I think the designers simply made a choice to prioritise game balance and simplicity over a completely coherent narrative (which the individual DMs are left to provide).
The rule works perfectly fine as is, and doesn't conflict with other rules as far as I am aware. To me, this topic is very far from being similar to the rules on visibility, which seems to be contradictory on multiple occasions. But as in any other game out there, homebrewing rules to suit your taste is always a valid option.
That's not how i'd rule it. The moment you'd receive 20 THP, the 1 THP from Symbiotic Entity would be lost along with the benefits, since they end when you loose these THP.
The thing is THP never overlap where the duration of different sources can co-exist, instead they succeed one another, if you have some THP and receive some more, they can't be added, you must instead decide whether to keep the ones you have or to gain the new ones. THP you don't keep are lost, thus never overlapping with new ones you gained.