One of my players and I have a dispute about quickened metamagic spells, specifically sunbeam.
I told him that he can cast it as a bonus action and everything else he can do in the same turn is to either attack with his weapon or cast a cantrip, as clarified in the rules.
However, he is trying to convince me that he is not casting another spell, he is activating an already active spell.
Does that mean that he is just activating another sunbeam and that's it, or is he dealing damage twice with the same spell in the same turn.
Meaning, sunbeam as a bonus action, and then sunbeam as an action in the same turn with metamagic quickened spell.
I’d say your player is correct. He used his bonus action to cast quickened sunbeam which gives him the option to “create a new line of radiance as your action on any turn until the spell ends.” He has an action. It’s his turn. The spell has not ended. Very clever!
The player is technically correct. Using the action granted by a spell is not the same as casting the spell. There are even spells that have a Bonus Action cast time and grant an Action by design, like Dragon's Breath.
Does that mean that he deals damage with the same spell twice in 1 turn which quickened spell metamagic specifically forbids?
If he is to cast a second spell, it must be a cantrip.
Quicken spell metamagic does not specifically forbid the spell cast from doing damage multiple times. Some spells do damage multiple times by design.
He is not casting a second spell. He cast 1 spell as a bonus action and used his action to perform a special action the spell gave him.
Just to be clear, he didn't cast sunbeam on a previous turn and is try to use quicken spell metamagoc to take the special action as a bonus action is he? Because that would not be allowed.
He’s not casting a second spell. He’s using the option for his action as presented to him by the ongoing spell.
I am unaware of the specific prohibition you mention against dealing damage with the same spell twice in one turn. I believe the rule you are referencing states only that if you cast a spell as a bonus action, you are limited to casting a cantrip as your action, which is not quite the same thing. Sure they end up in the same place most times but there are exceptional circumstances, like this instance with sunbeam, where your interpretation adds an additional restriction that is not intended.
Does that mean that he deals damage with the same spell twice in 1 turn which quickened spell metamagic specifically forbids?
If he is to cast a second spell, it must be a cantrip.
Quicken spell metamagic does not specifically forbid the spell cast from doing damage multiple times. Some spells do damage multiple times by design.
He is not casting a second spell. He cast 1 spell as a bonus action and used his action to perform a special action the spell gave him.
Just to be clear, he didn't cast sunbeam on a previous turn and is try to use quicken spell metamagoc to take the special action as a bonus action is he? Because that would not be allowed.
Thank you for this clarification! I apologized to my friend.
It's possible to use Quickened Spell to cast sunbeam as a bonus action and then use an action to create another line of radiance since the latter isn't casting a spell and isn't therefore limited by bonus action spellcasting. Even Druid inWildshape could create such line of radiance.
The spell sunbeam has a duration of 1 minute concentration, if creating a line of radiance as an action was casting a (concentration) spell, it would break concentration and refresh the duration perpetually. Instead, when cast, the spell last until concentration is broken or 1 minute pass and during this time, you can create line of radiance as an action.
This is a pretty clever use of Quickened Spell that I had never considered before. It's a very smart way to maximize damage from persistent spells like Sunbeam. I'll have to keep this in mind when selecting spells the next time I'm playing a Sorcerer
Looking at the wording, I suppose you could do the same thing with witch bolt. That would be a pretty solid whammy for a level 1 spell.
Oh, I need to mention this to the sorc in my party... she loves her witch bolt
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All sorcerer concentration spells with a casting time of 1 action, that also allow you to do something (damage or otherwise) with your action while it's still active
I maaay be considering a sorc/fighter multiclass just to get Action Surge and see how far I can push this
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
All sorcerer concentration spells with a casting time of 1 action, that also allow you to do something (damage or otherwise) with your action while it's still active
I maaay be considering a sorc/fighter multiclass just to get Action Surge and see how far I can push this
Yeah I was listing spells like sunbeam where quickened spell acts like a second cast for more damage or targets. I saw maximilian's earthen grasp but it has a caveat that it can only hold one creature at a time so an extra attack isn't super useful but may let you take two swipes at one target. Similarly control winds would just let you change the effect but you wouldn't get multiple active at once. The investiture, dominate, wall of light spells would allow you to use their action on the same time you cast it with quickened spell which could useful but they don't get the double action like sunbeam does when using quickened spell. I did miss watery sphere, it would let you target more creatures by using quickened spell because you could conjure it on a creature and move it to hit another.
So, I put this together as a backup character option for my CoS campaign. Air genasi Shadow Sorc 7/Fighter 2, with witch bolt, maximilian's earthen grasp, levitate (missed that one above), vampiric touch and watery sphere in the arsenal -- all of which can be Quickened for three uses in the same turn with Action Surge
If I ever actually deploy him I'll probably swap out the earthen grasp for something more useful, but for the purpose of the experiment I figured I'd include it. With 9 sorcery points including Metamagic Adept, there won't be too many worries about burning through them with Quickened
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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One of my players and I have a dispute about quickened metamagic spells, specifically sunbeam.
I told him that he can cast it as a bonus action and everything else he can do in the same turn is to either attack with his weapon or cast a cantrip, as clarified in the rules.
However, he is trying to convince me that he is not casting another spell, he is activating an already active spell.
Does that mean that he is just activating another sunbeam and that's it, or is he dealing damage twice with the same spell in the same turn.
Meaning, sunbeam as a bonus action, and then sunbeam as an action in the same turn with metamagic quickened spell.
I’d say your player is correct. He used his bonus action to cast quickened sunbeam which gives him the option to “create a new line of radiance as your action on any turn until the spell ends.” He has an action. It’s his turn. The spell has not ended. Very clever!
The player is technically correct. Using the action granted by a spell is not the same as casting the spell. There are even spells that have a Bonus Action cast time and grant an Action by design, like Dragon's Breath.
Does that mean that he deals damage with the same spell twice in 1 turn which quickened spell metamagic specifically forbids?
If he is to cast a second spell, it must be a cantrip.
Quicken spell metamagic does not specifically forbid the spell cast from doing damage multiple times. Some spells do damage multiple times by design.
He is not casting a second spell. He cast 1 spell as a bonus action and used his action to perform a special action the spell gave him.
Just to be clear, he didn't cast sunbeam on a previous turn and is try to use quicken spell metamagoc to take the special action as a bonus action is he? Because that would not be allowed.
No sir,
Bonus action quickened spell - sunbeam
Then he tried to use his action to activate it again in the same turn which it says that its not allowed in PHB and Xantar.
Does that mean because its a special action, it does not violate this rule?
He’s not casting a second spell. He’s using the option for his action as presented to him by the ongoing spell.
I am unaware of the specific prohibition you mention against dealing damage with the same spell twice in one turn. I believe the rule you are referencing states only that if you cast a spell as a bonus action, you are limited to casting a cantrip as your action, which is not quite the same thing. Sure they end up in the same place most times but there are exceptional circumstances, like this instance with sunbeam, where your interpretation adds an additional restriction that is not intended.
Thank you for this clarification! I apologized to my friend.
I absolutely love this Sunbeam trick and have used it often!!!
It's possible to use Quickened Spell to cast sunbeam as a bonus action and then use an action to create another line of radiance since the latter isn't casting a spell and isn't therefore limited by bonus action spellcasting. Even Druid inWildshape could create such line of radiance.
The spell sunbeam has a duration of 1 minute concentration, if creating a line of radiance as an action was casting a (concentration) spell, it would break concentration and refresh the duration perpetually. Instead, when cast, the spell last until concentration is broken or 1 minute pass and during this time, you can create line of radiance as an action.
This is a pretty clever use of Quickened Spell that I had never considered before. It's a very smart way to maximize damage from persistent spells like Sunbeam. I'll have to keep this in mind when selecting spells the next time I'm playing a Sorcerer
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Looking at the wording, I suppose you could do the same thing with witch bolt. That would be a pretty solid whammy for a level 1 spell.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The Dev once confirmed the question, having this to say about it;
Oh, I need to mention this to the sorc in my party... she loves her witch bolt
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell doesn't specify a "once per turn" rule or anything of the sort, so you can indeed activate it again immediately as an action.
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Yeah, for a spell like Witch Bolt that has kind of a bad reputation, this really elevates its viability.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Went looking for spells where this should work
maximilian's earthen grasp
watery sphere
control winds
wall of light
dominate beast (and person and monster)
investiture of flame (and ice and stone and wind)
whirlwind
All sorcerer concentration spells with a casting time of 1 action, that also allow you to do something (damage or otherwise) with your action while it's still active
I maaay be considering a sorc/fighter multiclass just to get Action Surge and see how far I can push this
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah I was listing spells like sunbeam where quickened spell acts like a second cast for more damage or targets. I saw maximilian's earthen grasp but it has a caveat that it can only hold one creature at a time so an extra attack isn't super useful but may let you take two swipes at one target. Similarly control winds would just let you change the effect but you wouldn't get multiple active at once. The investiture, dominate, wall of light spells would allow you to use their action on the same time you cast it with quickened spell which could useful but they don't get the double action like sunbeam does when using quickened spell. I did miss watery sphere, it would let you target more creatures by using quickened spell because you could conjure it on a creature and move it to hit another.
So, I put this together as a backup character option for my CoS campaign. Air genasi Shadow Sorc 7/Fighter 2, with witch bolt, maximilian's earthen grasp, levitate (missed that one above), vampiric touch and watery sphere in the arsenal -- all of which can be Quickened for three uses in the same turn with Action Surge
If I ever actually deploy him I'll probably swap out the earthen grasp for something more useful, but for the purpose of the experiment I figured I'd include it. With 9 sorcery points including Metamagic Adept, there won't be too many worries about burning through them with Quickened
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)