For true polymorph, when it has been concentrated on for the full duration, can reducing the target to 0 hp in its polymorphed form end the spell? I only ask this since the spell does not state that the ONLY way to end it is by being dispelled.
So, if a creature has true polymorphed into an ancient white dragon and has concentrated for the full duration, what will happen when the dragon is reduced to 0 hit points?
"Permanent" is the duration, replacing the 1 hour with concentration, not any other aspect of the spell, such as how it ends when you're reduced to 0 hit points, are killed, or if the magic is dispelled.
Does that new condition replace all previous end conditions or only the condition about duration?
Unclear. I think it is intended to only replace the concentration, but the wording use is less specific than that...
I mean, I think it's quite clear. The text itself is unambiguous. If you concentrate for the full duration, there is a single condition that ends the spell: being dispelled.
So, if a creature has true polymorphed into an ancient white dragon and has concentrated for the full duration, what will happen when the dragon is reduced to 0 hit points?
It doesn't turn back into the original creature. As I said in my first reply, being reduced to 0 hit points does not satisfy the condition required to end the spell under the stated circumstances.
"Permanent" is the duration, replacing the 1 hour with concentration, not any other aspect of the spell, such as how it ends when you're reduced to 0 hit points, are killed, or if the magic is dispelled.
There's no textual support for that position. The text is clear: "[normally] the spell lasts (for the duration or until the creature drops to 0 hit points or dies). If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts (until it is dispelled)." Dropping to hit points or dying will not end the spell in the second case; indeed, if they did, it'd be a pretty worthless feature of the spell.
Does that new condition replace all previous end conditions or only the condition about duration?
Unclear. I think it is intended to only replace the concentration, but the wording use is less specific than that...
I mean, I think it's quite clear. The text itself is unambiguous. If you concentrate for the full duration, there is a single condition that ends the spell: being dispelled.
So, if a creature has true polymorphed into an ancient white dragon and has concentrated for the full duration, what will happen when the dragon is reduced to 0 hit points?
It doesn't turn back into the original creature. As I said in my first reply, being reduced to 0 hit points does not satisfy the condition required to end the spell under the stated circumstances.
"Permanent" is the duration, replacing the 1 hour with concentration, not any other aspect of the spell, such as how it ends when you're reduced to 0 hit points, are killed, or if the magic is dispelled.
There's no textual support for that position. The text is clear: "[normally] the spell lasts (for the duration or until the creature drops to 0 hit points or dies). If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts (until it is dispelled)." Dropping to hit points or dying will not end the spell in the second case; indeed, if they did, it'd be a pretty worthless feature of the spell.
I disagree. Being able to go back to your original form from a powerful form without concentration and without losing much of your own hp is like have a second phase to a boss fight where you are the boss. Thus, it would not be a useless feature of the spell. With the interpretation of true polymorph not being restricted to one end condition, you won't be able to kill a creature by turning it into a vase and breaking the vase. In my opinion, it makes the spell much fairer. Also, creatures at 0 hp can't even be affected by the spell. So, the spell would also end because of that.
"The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
We can break this into 2 statements.
1. "The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies."
2. "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
So lets look at the 1st statement. "The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies." Easy. You cast the spell, and the target fails their Wisdom Save. The duration listed in the spell is 1 Hour (concentration). So the spell will last for an hour if you retain concentration, until you lose concentration or until the target drops to 0 hit points or until it dies by some other means (Max HP reduction, Disintegrate, etc). Easy, right? The spell lasts until one of those criteria are met: Lose concentration, drop to 0 hit points, dies.
So lets look at the 2nd statement. "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." So this very clearly means that if you concentrate on this spell for 1 hour, the methods stated in the first statement that would end the spell are all being overwritten by the second statement. That means ALL the criteria in statement 1 are overwritten by statement 2. No longer are concentration, reduction to 0 HP, or dying ways to make the spell end. Instead the only way to make the spell end is to dismiss the spell.
So if you True Polymorph a creature into a vase, concentrate for an hour, and then break the vase, boom! That creature stays a now-broken vase.
I feel your trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way. It seems very clear, if it drops to 0hp it goes back to original form.
I know JC's tweets aren't RAW, but for what weight it does add to the discussion he also state that very fact.
I feel your trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way. It seems very clear, if it drops to 0hp it goes back to original form.
"Trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way" is the accusation I'd level at anyone suggesting the spell ends at 0 HP after being made permanent. Grammatically and syntactically, there's no room for argument about the lines in the question (but see below for the Crawford discussion). It's extremely clear. The story of the spell 100% supports the spell remaining in effect. If all it took to end a permanent true polymorph were knocking someone out, it'd be extremely boring. Remember that this is a ninth-level spell.
I know JC's tweets aren't RAW, but for what weight it does add to the discussion he also state that very fact.
Crawford is not talking about the lines we're talking about. Indeed, the way he answers this question makes it pretty clear that he would not dispute what I've said above about the text. He's talking about the line that comes after the ones we're talking about, the one that says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points." And yeah, I will absolutely grant that Crawford's answer is one way to interpret that line. I'd even agree that a strict reading of RAW irrespective of common sense would support it, and if you weigh strict RAW more heavily than common sense, you do you. I won't argue. But for anyone who's still undecided, I will say that it's pretty obvious that this line is meant to limit what kinds of creatures you can cast the spell on, not to create conditions for ending the spell.
went back and re-listened to the polymorph Sage Advice and I have a follow up question: once a true polymorph spell is made permanent from concentrating for the full duration, does reducing that creature to 0hp still cause them to revert to their original form?
Re::
The text of the spell says it has no effect on a creature with 0 hit points. That statement is made after the bit about lasting until dispelled. At 0 hit points? The transformation ends.
As anything other than face value, but, yeah just reading the spell makes it seem obvious that is what it does (returns to original at 0 HP). It seems your reaction is the exact opposite and thus we'll prob not agree.
IMO that's one of the greatest benefits of the spell (2nd health bar), and don't think an argument of "9th level so it be lame if it did do that" makes sense.. but /shrug
I don't see your interpretation, sorry. I'm sure neither of us will loose sleep over that.
Crawford isn't talking about shapechangers. He's talking about a line that also talks about shapechangers. I just quoted the entire sentence because it clarifies my position that it's about valid targets, not about conditions for ending the spell. Have you not read the spell text?
Let's try not to make any accusations or snide remarks please.
Both interpretations have some merit in the RAW, not ending at 0 HP probably more so, but the RAI is that it still ends at 0 HP. The rules are riddled with bad phrasing that convey opposite meaning from intended, this is just one of those...
Ultimately it is just up to DMs. No one is going to change their minds from this discussion.
I feel your trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way. It seems very clear, if it drops to 0hp it goes back to original form.
"Trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way" is the accusation I'd level at anyone suggesting the spell ends at 0 HP after being made permanent. Grammatically and syntactically, there's no room for argument about the lines in the question (but see below for the Crawford discussion). It's extremely clear. The story of the spell 100% supports the spell remaining in effect. If all it took to end a permanent true polymorph were knocking someone out, it'd be extremely boring. Remember that this is a ninth-level spell.
I completely disagree. Leech2220's interpretation of the rules for True Polymorph is in line with how all other shape-changing features handle reverting back to your natural form, which means your position is contrary to the general way shape-changing works in the game.
Also, your proposal has significant issues, such as you simultaneously being a dead creature, while you're not dead, your soul remaining inert, trapped in the dead creature's body until it decays away into nothing, permanently leaving your soul trapped in oblivion, unless someone casts dispel magic on it before it's completely gone. There's significantly more effects that need explained with your interpretation than with the one that has the creature revert to its normal form when reduced to zero hp or killed.
I feel your trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way. It seems very clear, if it drops to 0hp it goes back to original form.
"Trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way" is the accusation I'd level at anyone suggesting the spell ends at 0 HP after being made permanent. Grammatically and syntactically, there's no room for argument about the lines in the question (but see below for the Crawford discussion). It's extremely clear. The story of the spell 100% supports the spell remaining in effect. If all it took to end a permanent true polymorph were knocking someone out, it'd be extremely boring. Remember that this is a ninth-level spell.
I completely disagree. Leech2220's interpretation of the rules for True Polymorph is in line with how all other shape-changing features handle reverting back to your natural form, which means your position is contrary to the general way shape-changing works in the game.
Yes. The permanence clause doesn't exist in the text of any other shape-changing feature in the game. Of course it's contrary to the rest. It's definitionally exceptional.
Also, your proposal has significant issues, such as you simultaneously being a dead creature, while you're not dead, your soul remaining inert, trapped in the dead creature's body until it decays away into nothing, permanently leaving your soul trapped in oblivion, unless someone casts dispel magic on it before it's completely gone. There's significantly more effects that need explained with your interpretation than with the one that has the creature revert to its normal form when reduced to zero hp or killed.
What are you even talking about? Nothing about the standard rules on death changes. If you die when you're permanently polymorphed, your soul does whatever it would do normally. There's no explanation required. You are making stuff up my friend.
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent." There is no statement that corrects the previous declaration of 0HP returning you to your original form. The permanent effect only applies to the duration of the spell, it does not state directly that being reduced to 0HP does not remove the effects of this spell. Therefore, with how specific the wordings of rules and spells are, the duration is permanent until dispelled or the target is reduced to 0HP. This essentially acts as a long-term initial form for the target creature. When the target creature is reduced to 0HP, the target reverts to their original form, be it 3 hours, 10 days, 7 months, or 20 years from then. It is actually quite clear about this. So you can techinicaly transform a Barbarian into a Dragon, they can fight for a while as a dragon, and upon being killed, they become a barbarian again. Alternatively, if your DM doe not follow rules as written(which, again, are clearly stated here), and decides to change how the spell functions and decides that you are just now only this form and have no original form until it is dispelled(which technically happens when you revert to 0HP, but again we are assuming that the DM is changing the rules for some reason), the caster can simply dispel the transformation when the Dragon form is low on HP and allow the Barbarian to assume his original form, effectively functioning very similar to the original wording of the spell.
Finally, there is an actual note in this spell that directly says everyone saying being reduced to 0HP doesn't revert to their original form is actually wrong. " If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knocked unconscious."
No, a real question for everybody... The wording of the spell is that you turn a creature into another creature. Not another creature TYPE, but another creature. I am a different creature than my Barbarian. Does this mean I should be able to turn myself into a copy of my Barbarian? Additionally, if I use Simulacrum, the Simulacrum is technically a different creature than me since it is half alive and half object. Does this mean I can True Polymorph on the Simulacrum to turn it into me, giving it all of my abilities? This would include the ability to regain spell slots since it is no longer a Simulacrum, but actually a copy of me now. This is a hard interaction to find an official ruling on. Rules as written this should work. I understand it's OP, but I personally like to DM Rules as Written, so I would like to know if I should allow this interaction. Since there are no rules as written about it(or conflicting ones to be more precise), I am coming to my fellow nerds and the neck beards of the community.
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A swift breeze in the night? Or a thief leaving your pockets much more light? Am I a shadow or a blight? Perhaps I'm a different form of might.
No, a real question for everybody... The wording of the spell is that you turn a creature into another creature. Not another creature TYPE, but another creature. I am a different creature than my Barbarian. Does this mean I should be able to turn myself into a copy of my Barbarian? Additionally, if I use Simulacrum, the Simulacrum is technically a different creature than me since it is half alive and half object. Does this mean I can True Polymorph on the Simulacrum to turn it into me, giving it all of my abilities? This would include the ability to regain spell slots since it is no longer a Simulacrum, but actually a copy of me now. This is a hard interaction to find an official ruling on. Rules as written this should work. I understand it's OP, but I personally like to DM Rules as Written, so I would like to know if I should allow this interaction. Since there are no rules as written about it(or conflicting ones to be more precise), I am coming to my fellow nerds and the neck beards of the community.
The spell states that you can turn into a kind of creature of a CR equal to or less than your level. In addition, it has to be a kind of creature. One that isn't named. So, you can turn into an ancient white dragon but you cannot become a copy of Iggwilv, the Witch Queen.
Also, as a note, player characters usually operate on their level for these spells and don't have a challenge rating meaning you can't polymorph into them.
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For true polymorph, when it has been concentrated on for the full duration, can reducing the target to 0 hp in its polymorphed form end the spell? I only ask this since the spell does not state that the ONLY way to end it is by being dispelled.
It says "it lasts until dispelled." Dropping to 0 hit points does not satisfy that condition, so the spell does not end.
Does that new condition replace all previous end conditions or only the condition about duration?
Unclear. I think it is intended to only replace the concentration, but the wording use is less specific than that...
So, if a creature has true polymorphed into an ancient white dragon and has concentrated for the full duration, what will happen when the dragon is reduced to 0 hit points?
"Permanent" is the duration, replacing the 1 hour with concentration, not any other aspect of the spell, such as how it ends when you're reduced to 0 hit points, are killed, or if the magic is dispelled.
I mean, I think it's quite clear. The text itself is unambiguous. If you concentrate for the full duration, there is a single condition that ends the spell: being dispelled.
It doesn't turn back into the original creature. As I said in my first reply, being reduced to 0 hit points does not satisfy the condition required to end the spell under the stated circumstances.
There's no textual support for that position. The text is clear: "[normally] the spell lasts (for the duration or until the creature drops to 0 hit points or dies). If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts (until it is dispelled)." Dropping to hit points or dying will not end the spell in the second case; indeed, if they did, it'd be a pretty worthless feature of the spell.
I disagree. Being able to go back to your original form from a powerful form without concentration and without losing much of your own hp is like have a second phase to a boss fight where you are the boss. Thus, it would not be a useless feature of the spell. With the interpretation of true polymorph not being restricted to one end condition, you won't be able to kill a creature by turning it into a vase and breaking the vase. In my opinion, it makes the spell much fairer. Also, creatures at 0 hp can't even be affected by the spell. So, the spell would also end because of that.
Reading the spell, it's actually very clear.
"The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
We can break this into 2 statements.
1. "The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies."
2. "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled."
So lets look at the 1st statement. "The spell lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies." Easy. You cast the spell, and the target fails their Wisdom Save. The duration listed in the spell is 1 Hour (concentration). So the spell will last for an hour if you retain concentration, until you lose concentration or until the target drops to 0 hit points or until it dies by some other means (Max HP reduction, Disintegrate, etc). Easy, right? The spell lasts until one of those criteria are met: Lose concentration, drop to 0 hit points, dies.
So lets look at the 2nd statement. "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." So this very clearly means that if you concentrate on this spell for 1 hour, the methods stated in the first statement that would end the spell are all being overwritten by the second statement. That means ALL the criteria in statement 1 are overwritten by statement 2. No longer are concentration, reduction to 0 HP, or dying ways to make the spell end. Instead the only way to make the spell end is to dismiss the spell.
So if you True Polymorph a creature into a vase, concentrate for an hour, and then break the vase, boom! That creature stays a now-broken vase.
I feel your trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way. It seems very clear, if it drops to 0hp it goes back to original form.
I know JC's tweets aren't RAW, but for what weight it does add to the discussion he also state that very fact.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/once-a-true-polymorph-spell-is-made-permanent-does-reducing-to-0hp-still-cause-the-creature-to-revert-to-its-original-form/
"Trying super hard to pick apart the sentence in a clearly misleading way" is the accusation I'd level at anyone suggesting the spell ends at 0 HP after being made permanent. Grammatically and syntactically, there's no room for argument about the lines in the question (but see below for the Crawford discussion). It's extremely clear. The story of the spell 100% supports the spell remaining in effect. If all it took to end a permanent true polymorph were knocking someone out, it'd be extremely boring. Remember that this is a ninth-level spell.
Crawford is not talking about the lines we're talking about. Indeed, the way he answers this question makes it pretty clear that he would not dispute what I've said above about the text. He's talking about the line that comes after the ones we're talking about, the one that says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points." And yeah, I will absolutely grant that Crawford's answer is one way to interpret that line. I'd even agree that a strict reading of RAW irrespective of common sense would support it, and if you weigh strict RAW more heavily than common sense, you do you. I won't argue. But for anyone who's still undecided, I will say that it's pretty obvious that this line is meant to limit what kinds of creatures you can cast the spell on, not to create conditions for ending the spell.
I don't see how you can take this:
As anything other than face value, but, yeah just reading the spell makes it seem obvious that is what it does (returns to original at 0 HP). It seems your reaction is the exact opposite and thus we'll prob not agree.
IMO that's one of the greatest benefits of the spell (2nd health bar), and don't think an argument of "9th level so it be lame if it did do that" makes sense.. but /shrug
I don't see your interpretation, sorry. I'm sure neither of us will loose sleep over that.
Crawford isn't talking about shapechangers. He's talking about a line that also talks about shapechangers. I just quoted the entire sentence because it clarifies my position that it's about valid targets, not about conditions for ending the spell. Have you not read the spell text?
Let's try not to make any accusations or snide remarks please.
Both interpretations have some merit in the RAW, not ending at 0 HP probably more so, but the RAI is that it still ends at 0 HP. The rules are riddled with bad phrasing that convey opposite meaning from intended, this is just one of those...
Ultimately it is just up to DMs. No one is going to change their minds from this discussion.
I completely disagree. Leech2220's interpretation of the rules for True Polymorph is in line with how all other shape-changing features handle reverting back to your natural form, which means your position is contrary to the general way shape-changing works in the game.
Also, your proposal has significant issues, such as you simultaneously being a dead creature, while you're not dead, your soul remaining inert, trapped in the dead creature's body until it decays away into nothing, permanently leaving your soul trapped in oblivion, unless someone casts dispel magic on it before it's completely gone. There's significantly more effects that need explained with your interpretation than with the one that has the creature revert to its normal form when reduced to zero hp or killed.
Yes. The permanence clause doesn't exist in the text of any other shape-changing feature in the game. Of course it's contrary to the rest. It's definitionally exceptional.
What are you even talking about? Nothing about the standard rules on death changes. If you die when you're permanently polymorphed, your soul does whatever it would do normally. There's no explanation required. You are making stuff up my friend.
"The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation becomes permanent." There is no statement that corrects the previous declaration of 0HP returning you to your original form. The permanent effect only applies to the duration of the spell, it does not state directly that being reduced to 0HP does not remove the effects of this spell. Therefore, with how specific the wordings of rules and spells are, the duration is permanent until dispelled or the target is reduced to 0HP. This essentially acts as a long-term initial form for the target creature. When the target creature is reduced to 0HP, the target reverts to their original form, be it 3 hours, 10 days, 7 months, or 20 years from then. It is actually quite clear about this. So you can techinicaly transform a Barbarian into a Dragon, they can fight for a while as a dragon, and upon being killed, they become a barbarian again. Alternatively, if your DM doe not follow rules as written(which, again, are clearly stated here), and decides to change how the spell functions and decides that you are just now only this form and have no original form until it is dispelled(which technically happens when you revert to 0HP, but again we are assuming that the DM is changing the rules for some reason), the caster can simply dispel the transformation when the Dragon form is low on HP and allow the Barbarian to assume his original form, effectively functioning very similar to the original wording of the spell.
Finally, there is an actual note in this spell that directly says everyone saying being reduced to 0HP doesn't revert to their original form is actually wrong. " If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knocked unconscious."
A swift breeze in the night? Or a thief leaving your pockets much more light? Am I a shadow or a blight? Perhaps I'm a different form of might.
No, a real question for everybody... The wording of the spell is that you turn a creature into another creature. Not another creature TYPE, but another creature. I am a different creature than my Barbarian. Does this mean I should be able to turn myself into a copy of my Barbarian? Additionally, if I use Simulacrum, the Simulacrum is technically a different creature than me since it is half alive and half object. Does this mean I can True Polymorph on the Simulacrum to turn it into me, giving it all of my abilities? This would include the ability to regain spell slots since it is no longer a Simulacrum, but actually a copy of me now. This is a hard interaction to find an official ruling on. Rules as written this should work. I understand it's OP, but I personally like to DM Rules as Written, so I would like to know if I should allow this interaction. Since there are no rules as written about it(or conflicting ones to be more precise), I am coming to my fellow nerds and the neck beards of the community.
A swift breeze in the night? Or a thief leaving your pockets much more light? Am I a shadow or a blight? Perhaps I'm a different form of might.
The spell states that you can turn into a kind of creature of a CR equal to or less than your level. In addition, it has to be a kind of creature. One that isn't named. So, you can turn into an ancient white dragon but you cannot become a copy of Iggwilv, the Witch Queen.
Also, as a note, player characters usually operate on their level for these spells and don't have a challenge rating meaning you can't polymorph into them.