Quote from ThriKreenWarrior >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

In my years and games, about a quarter ever really wanted to go and do the giant games, but they were tired of the whole “fight a god” model.  They wanted something new. A story that wasn’t ascension or kill Sauron. They wanted something interesting, and that gave them a sense of real heroism, and gave them a chance to become legend.

Which means finding a story that does that. In 5e, a single 20th level fighter can generally grind through a swarm of 100 goblins pretty easily by himself. A wizard can level a city even without using things like wish. A Druid can pretty much bring the mountain to him, lol. And honestly, I can see why a lot of DMs do the whole fight a god or become a god thing. It is a comparatively easy story, well known.

for 20th level and above, in my new setting, I have two areas set aside. One is essentially an above ground dungeon exploration in a place where everything is trying to kill you, even the air you breathe. Superman storylines are useful here — take away his power and what is he, as long as he can get it all back in time to save the day. But the dangers in that place would all but outright kill anything under 12th level.

The other place is why the encounters with Dragons are so rare on this planet. They have reached the pinnacle, defeated the Ikon of Belial and his horde of devil servants, set back the clock by centuries of the god’s return. But they haven’t faced more than three dragons, and never once in the form of a dragon.

There will be dragons. The Sphinxes and Chimerae, the Centaurs and strange saurian type things — they are only heard about, mentioned in passing, and not covered in the lord the players get. yet they are there, in an area nearly as large as the Empire, and now that the big bad is gone, they feel it is time to show themselves, and attack the rest of the world as punishment.

naturally, this is when the most powerful characters in 300 years are needed, lol. Up to them. And that is the secret 21st adventure in my new campaign: a challenge the involves things they don’t know anything about, haven’t fought, have powers and abilities that truly rival theirs, and that shatter the norms they have gotten useful. Even my usual bit of advance lore has intentionally obscured it because I have maxed out all the classes just to see what is possible so I can counter it.

by the time they get to it, they will have done the dungeons part. Now they have to do the dragons part, and I have made it so that a single dragon is to a lvl 20 what a beholder is to a lvl 3. Death walking, seemingly impossible to kill, able to pretty much one shot a character.

because that is one thing that is missing: things powerful and potent enough.

after that, however, it is time to retire. None of them are expected to get out of it unscathed, if they win. And at least a few will have had a romance cycle as part of the long campaign to get there. So now they get to make grand children, who will have a whole different world to grow up in — one changed and affected and I will tell stories of what they all did afterwards and those will go into the second lore book.

But the whole point of this long bit is that people would like to do it, but it has been done to death in the same few ways. The old Lolth module was incredible, but it was kill the goddess. That was only to 14 or 15.

the 2e module Dancing hut of baba Yaga went to 20. Labyrinth of madness was 15 and above, Castle Greyhawk was up to 25th, The Apocalypse Stone, A. Paladin in Hell — I think that was all the 15 to 20’s for 1e and 2e. Only one went above and it was a dungeon crawl akin to tomb of horrors.

I stopped buying any modules after 3e came out, so there might have been a dozen then, especially in the 3.5e era, but they also realized like 60 modules.

So I think it is a combination of not knowing how to create an adventure of that sort, especially one that is homebrew as most games are.

but also, the stories for a character stop. The book ends. Time for a new one. And for most folks, around 12 to 15 is when that story stops.

this is why I started at the beginning to make a full campaign, to weave a story — stories, really — that would last that long. It needed a big huge final battle with stakes unlike anything else, and then it will need a big “return to normal”, a happily ever after codicil.

and then the next generation starts in with their own adventures 

 When I played AD&D we did the Lolth module (I think back then she had 66 HP, but she could cast heal on herself which restored all but 1d4 HP, iirc) and we had an Archer (Fighter) in the group that had Weapon Specialization from the Unearthed Arcana book (it's the one that introduced the Barbarian, Cavalier and Thief Acrobat, I believe). We were all excited for a major battle and on round one the archer used their boots of levitation (they were hasted too) to rise up, fire a bunch of arrows (from the weapon specialization rules) and took Lolth out in one round. Cool, but anticlimactic. And I think things like this are why there are no epic modules. You don't know and can't plan for what a group might have, including all the magic items they may have acquired, to really balance a module at these levels.

 

LOL!

Damn, seriously anticlimactic.  Did that Archer survive the aftermath?

Yeah, this is another reason I always set them up as part of my campaign -- I *can* control what they will have. What is available at shops, what folks are willing to make, how much it costs, can it only be found, all that.

premade modules are a foundation, but then i would never have a goddess with so few hit points, lol. Video games got the "big bad" formula down way better for higher levels (endless hit points!  My 300 per turn damage barbarian managed to give his all and we got 10%! Woohoo! Oh, wait, it just pulled a 1e troll on us and healed everything. Crap! DPS, DPS!).

But a lot of DMs can't do that (hell, I couldn't during my early years because of that damn open table stuff), because they are kinda constricted by the released stuff -- easier to just start fresh at 12th level.

Huh, Dungeon of the mad mage says it is for 20th level. Only one for 5th I see, and it is Waterdeep based. There are a few that hit 15th, too.  So some models out there for folks -- but like with me, they are long term things -- you have to plan for that, and not give them things you can't plan for.

Or you give a Lich 2000 hit points and 50 points per attack, lol.

Yeah I remember the Lolth module (The DemonWeb Pits or something similar) , Lolth took out 6/7ths of the party pretty much with a wave of her hand but then got 1 shotted by the remaining 1/7th.

Quote from Xalthu >>

There’s a bit of chicken or the egg to it, so people not play them because they’re not around, or do companies not make them because they’re not wanted. Personally, I trust hasbro’s market research and if there was a big demand for high level content, they provide it. Even these anthology books they’ve made, where it’s just, basically, a bunch of one-shots, only go up to level 13 or 14. It would be pretty low commitment to add in a single, level 19 adventure into one of those books, but they don’t bother.

But there’s also some practical aspects. It’s really hard to maintain an interesting, coherent narrative for that long (1-20). You start needing to remember NPC’s from 32 sessions ago, plot details from over a year ago (a year in real time not game time), it just gets unwieldy. Sure there’s tables that can do it, but it takes a skilled DM and at least one or two players who are really invested in the world. 
What’s more, as a player, you keep seeing new books published, and new stuff you want to try. It’s going to take many, if not most, groups a few years to go 1-20. By then, there’s been a few new sourcebooks, and setting books, and you want to play a different character. As fun as one might be, there’s always a new one around the corner that looks super cool.

 Well put.

I think I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, even though some of it bums me out a bit. 

That said, I think there is still a significant fanbase (even if it is the minority) for epic adventures, so I hope they allow for this as a reasonable option in there software for 1D&D. Honestly, that is the one thing that would steer me away from it, is if the rules/software just doesn't even make homebrew reasonably possible for players like myself. Time will tell, and I do look forward to it, I'm just crossing my fingers on this one.

Thanks,

A lot of great posts recently, so I just would like to thank everyone for sharing.

I have never played the Lolth module myself, so perhaps I should check that one out.

Thanks again,

I have always looked at 10th level and higher characters as pretty much ready for retirement.
They are some of the most powerful people in the land. They are known about by everyone either by secret reputation or open fame.
Not a single king or leader in any land they are in would allow them to just walk around, the character is a threat to their thrown. The character has the power to rule the land.
Kings keep their power by removing such people from the scene. They either hire them and send them off on certain death missions(golden fleece Jason story), "Grant" them land just outside their boarders, or just kill them by sending assassins after them until the threat is gone.

By level 13 a character should be rich, rich beyond the dreams of normal men(peasants), they should have a large business or several small ones. Enough to keep them well fed and happy for the rest of their lives. Reaching for more and they step into the realm of politics.

By level 15hey should have set up a kingdom by now or its equivalent.

What level do you think a King is?

let me take a quick look...

According to my campaign records, Baron Kardagan of Karovia is 17th level. His brother, the Seneschal, is 9th level, and the seneschal is ruling because the Emperor is off in some fantasy land on the damn conclave island. The emperor is 14th level, and always underestimated.

Princessa Himesama Usher, (yes, it is a joke within a joke within a joke, played straight) the eldest heir of the Emperor, is level 14 as well, and is being manipulated by the Seneschal into marrying the Baron, who is pretty nasty and brutish (and strangely never seen in the daytime) so that House Kardas can seize power because while the law is that the eldest child inherits, it has been a Prince for so long that it is frowned on for her to do so.

She is confined to the Imperial Castle, and the cra they are doing to her tends to result in damage to the castle which means she is being said to be crazy or unstable, and probably will die soon, even if they can marry her off to someone more suitable and of proper ability.

Party will be expected to first help clear her name and reputation and free her, but also later will be expected to help her take the crown when part of the fallout from the first part will involve the murder of the Emperor.

Being threatened by PCs is a function of the setting.  FOr some of them, the class level will be low and what you say is absolutely going to hold true. For others, well, it may be that the monster manual doesn't talk about the more powerful beasties, lol.

Which leads me to the question.

Why would a 15th level ruler leave his kingdom to go off on a quest? Why would he risk loosing his kingdom to go on a quest? How would he travel through enemy lands on this quest?

Well, Maxilia has to leave her kingdom (aztlan) once a year anyway for the conclave, and she gets bored pretty easily, and she likes to keep a hand in. Plus, Lemuria has been sending ships to her shores for raids and she is really tired of the little people getting smashed and beaten and her local Matron asked for help with it.  Good rulers lead from the front, she says.

So she goes because dayum, she gets to fight. Way easier than dealing with taxes and squabbling nobles and greedy little merchants and those holy cow they are crazy adventurers...

Did you not see Wonder Woman? Hippolyta is the Queen because she can beat nearly all of them, lol.

King Richard the Lion Heart. Held in enemy lands for ransom because he tried to go on a religious crusade.
He could have just as easily been killed.

Wonder Woman's Theyscira was a truly unique land. It had no outside kingdoms threatening it. And a God actively set its laws and forced their compliance.

Like real rulers who lead from the front they often die in battle. King Richard iii at Bosworth.field.

This game needs more real life like threats to characters. Without the threat of character death half the game is lost, half the fun. Get famous get enemies.

Quote from TheGnome5786 >>

King Richard the Lion Heart. Held in enemy lands for ransom because he tried to go on a religious crusade.
He could have just as easily been killed.

 

Wonder Woman's Theyscira was a truly unique land. It had no outside kingdoms threatening it. And a God actively set its laws and forced their compliance.

 

Like real rulers who lead from the front they often die in battle. King Richard iii at Bosworth.field.

 

 

This game needs more real life like threats to characters. Without the threat of character death half the game is lost, half the fun. Get famous get enemies.

well....

That wasn't Richard's first crusade, and he was sorta known for just going off.  probably from his father and the fact he wasn't allowed to be gay.

Themyscira has gone through so many redoings it makes D&D editions look standstill, lol.   But they had the entire world threatening them (and either a God of War or several kingdoms threatening it when it was obscured by the gods) and the Gods do not enforce the rules there, they do themselves.  

And even then the designated heir went off to traipse around the world, lol.

The reason need not be a "good" reason, it merely needs to be a reason -- and you asked for why would a ruler do that. There are as many possible reasons as there are rulers, with plenty left over.